Advice please: sourdough starter and JerryMac NY dough - updated with results

[bfguilford]

I'm thinking about introducing some well-established sourdough starter (Carl Griffith's Oregon Trail) into my next JerryMac dough tomorrow. I did a search but didn't see anyone doing this. I'd like to start off with a pretty light touch, and replace 1/4 tsp of IDY by 1/4 cup starter (what I do in my bread), and go from there according to what it does to the flavor and crumb.

My question is about which stage to do that in - the preferment or the final dough, and what difference it would make if done in either stage. My hunch going in is that putting it into the preferment would develop a lot more flavor, but would it do anything unexpected?

Barry

[parallei]

My hunch going in is that putting it into the preferment would develop a lot more flavor, but would it do anything unexpected?

I'd also chuck it in with the preferment with the hopes for a bit more flavor.  If I remember correctly, JerryMac lets his polish go 4 or 5 hours.   Will it do anything unexpected? If we knew, it wouldn't be unexpected .

Let us know how it turns out and post pic's!

[bfguilford]

Will it do anything unexpected? If we knew, it wouldn't be unexpected .

LOL. That's what I'll do unless someone convinces me otherwise by 10:00 tomorrow morning.

[Pete-zza]

Barry,

I assume that you will be using the same dough formulation but substituting some of your Griffith's sourdough for some of the commercial yeast, but still using a lot of commercial yeast for the final mix. Is that correct?

Peter

[bfguilford]

That was what I planned, Peter. Does that sound OK to you?

Barry

[Pete-zza]

That was what I planned, Peter. Does that sound OK to you?

Barry

Barry,

I say go for it. That is how you learn. However, in my experience, commercial yeast, even in modest quantities, can overtake the sourdough such that the flavors contributed by the natural sourdough get lost. But I will also add that there are commercial bakers who supplement their sourdough with commercial yeast. However, the commercial yeast is usually used in small amounts, often for insurance purposes in case the sourdough component doesn't do the job as hoped or planned, and also to get better oven spring.

I look forward to your results.

Peter

[bfguilford]

However, in my experience, commercial yeast, even in modest quantities, can overtake the sourdough such that the flavors contributed by the natural sourdough get lost.

I just had an object lesson in that. Partly to test things out, I baked a bread with 50/50 starter/yeast mix today. I just cut into it, and the sourdough taste is way in the background (almost nonexistent). I may up the quantity of starter in the preferment a bit tomorrow. We'll see what happens. I'm not looking for a strong sourdough taste in the crust... just a little extra taste. I'll share the results.

Learning is good!

Barry

[bfguilford]

I tried the experiment of substituting 2/3 cup of sourdough starter for 2/3 tsp of IDY in the preferment. Used my normal convoluted flour mixture - all organic Central Milling (150g Type 85 malted; 75g Artisan Baker Craft unmalted; 75g Artisan Bakers Craft malted); 300g water; 1/3 tsp IDY. Let it go for 4:45.

Final dough: Added 75g Artisan Baker Craft unmalted; 75g Artisan Bakers Craft malted; 3/4tsp IDY; 1-1/2tsp salt. Used food processor. 7-1/2 minute bake at 525 (max that the oven goes... for now), with convection going for the last 3:00.

The only change from last bake was the sourdough starter. Half of this pie was garlic, kale sauteed in EVOO, and cherry tomatoes; the other half a white margherita. Results were very good. Not much of a change in taste. As Peter predicted, the yeast overwhelmed the sourdough. The dough was crispy on the outside, with a nice chewy inside.

Pics are of the preferment (the flecks are the bran from the Type 85), the dough on the second rise, and the finished pie (top and side). I also got to try my new 20x20 Superpeel, which was a little bit of an adventure, but worked out well in the end. My stone is 20x12, so I do oblong pies.

This is fun!!!

Barry

[pizzaneer]

Excellent pie!  The pictures really look great, now if only I could taste it...

[bfguilford]

Excellent pie!  The pictures really look great, now if only I could taste it...

Thanks, pizzaner. I have a couple of slices left over, but you'd have to negotiate with my son... and I don't hold out much hope of getting him to give them up  .

[pizzaneer]

How about my son could fight your son?  Some online Wii fighting game. 

[bfguilford]

How about my son could fight your son?  Some online Wii fighting game. 

We're peaceful pizza people (say that 10 times fast).

[Pete-zza]

Barry,

That is a good looking pizza even though the sourdough flavors did not come through.

Maybe you have already seen the posts at Replies 21 and 22 starting at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,6515.msg58617.html#msg58617, but what I tried to show in Reply 22 is an example of how the JerryMac recipe might be adapted to use a sourdough starter. That example was not intended to make a same day dough but rather one that would be used the next day. I never tried that dough formulation myself and it looks like pizzablogger, for whom I devised the formulation, may not have attempted the formulation either. So, I have no idea of how the formulation would play out.

The above said, I believe that it is possible to modify the JerryMac recipe to use a sourdough starter for a same-day dough. However, that can take a fair amount of number crunching and, moreover, the results would depend on the makeup and characteristics of your particular starter material. The expert on the forum on making same-day, naturally-leavened dough is Chau (Jackie Tran). However, there is a fair amount of material on the forum on the subject of conversions of recipes using commercial yeast to natural leavening systems, which you can find by using the forum's search feature. As an example of some of my posts on the subject, you might take a look at Reply 484 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,9908.msg101846/topicseen.html#msg101846, Reply 120 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,11578.msg107411.html#msg107411, snd Reply 2 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,11808.msg109641/topicseen.html#msg109641.

Peter

[bfguilford]

Thanks, as always, Peter for your feedback, and even more for your thoughtful response (and far better use of the search feature). I will check those posts out, and do more research. Since my objective is to develop more flavor in the crust, I will also start to look at multi-day doughs like Glutenboy's. So many recipes... so little time.  

Barry

[bfguilford]

I also discovered that I can recalibrate my oven temperature, and have boosted it by the maximum 35 degrees. Hopefully, I should now be able to bake at 550-560 degrees, which I will try before attempting any further ways to trick the oven (like wrapping the thermostat in a frozen cloth).

I've been reading scott123's posts about using 1/2 inch steel plate instead of a stone, and will look into that, too.

Barry

[scott123]

Barry, you seem pretty happy with your current results.  Steel will take you into a puffier/moister/less crispy realm.  It's not often that I say this, but if you prefer a drier crunchier crust, steel might not be the answer for you.

I took a look at a photo of Marcos pizza, and, while I couldn't see the crust in the shot, it wasn't giving off that much of a NY vibe.  It actually bears a slight resemblance to a much more heavily topped American style pie.  The fact that you live close to New Haven but haven't spoken much about the NH places leads me to further believe that your taste might run on the American side, since I consider NH and NY to be very similar.  Steel plate would take you into a more NH territory than you are now. Am I correct in my assumption that you're not thrilled with Pepe's?

Everyone on this planet should have a 4 minute pizza at least once, but, in your case, if it isn't broke, it might not be worth fixing it.

[bfguilford]

Barry, you seem pretty happy with your current results.  Steel will take you into a puffier/moister/less crispy realm.  It's not often that I say this, but if you prefer a drier crunchier crust, steel might not be the answer for you.

I took a look at a photo of Marcos pizza, and, while I couldn't see the crust in the shot, it wasn't giving off that much of a NY vibe.  It actually bears a slight resemblance to a much more heavily topped American style pie.  The fact that you live close to New Haven but haven't spoken much about the NH places leads me to further believe that your taste might run on the American side, since I consider NH and NY to be very similar.  Steel plate would take you into a more NH territory than you are now. Am I correct in my assumption that you're not thrilled with Pepe's?

Everyone on this planet should have a 4 minute pizza at least once, but, in your case, if it isn't broke, it might not be worth fixing it.

Thanks for your reply, Scott. Your description of puffier/moister/less crispy helps me start to understand what steel can do, but I guess I won't know until I try it. I think the issue might be that my taste in crusts runs more to that, but my wife and son prefer a more crispy crust. This dough made with the starter was moister and I definitely preferred it. I'm assuming that having a steel plate made won't be that expensive, so having that and the cordierite kiln shelf might be good until I decide which style we prefer (pizzamaker gets the final vote... I hope).

I just took a look at the photo of the pizza on the Marco web site, and I see what you mean. I've never seen one with that much cheese come out of their oven. My arteries are clogging just looking at it. Even though the owner used to work at Pepe's, Tom went with deck ovens when he opened Marco. So you're right... it's not NH style pizza. I think it's closer to my experience with NY style (nice puffy crust, tapers to thin, foldable, with a good droop to it, but maybe a little more crisp... don't know because I haven't eaten that much NY pizza in NY), but I don't have your level of experience with it.

You are correct in your assumption that I'm not thrilled with Pepe's for a bunch of reasons. I don't like the waiting in line for long periods, I find their service to border on obnoxious at times, and their pies to be really inconsistent. Sometimes the char is a thing of beauty; other times it looks like someone took a blowtorch to the crust, and it is cinders, masking all other flavors on the pie. I like Sally's better.

I was in NYC in May, and we went on a walking pizza tour (gee, I hope you're not that Scott   ... even though he wasn't our guide). Lombardi... super disappointed. John's was good. The third was so unmemorable that, well, I can't remember its name. Gotta get back and do a real tour with some pros  

I wouldn't say that I'm that happy with my current results, especially when I see what others on this site are creating. I'm at the very beginning of my pizza journey, and enjoying it a lot. I always want to learn and improve, especially when it comes to getting a more flavorful crust.

Barry

[scott123]

I'm not that Scott  Is he really taking people to Lombardi's?  I guess, from a historic perspective, there might be some interest, but why subject tourists to such crappy pizza?

Thanks for the clarification regarding your pizzamaking goals and preferences.  You're definitely ready for steel. Steel will take you towards NH, but without the incineration, so if the occasional Pepe pie brings you joy, you're going to be ecstatic with the results from steel.

[bfguilford]

I'm not that Scott   Is he really taking people to Lombardi's?  I guess, from a historic perspective, there might be some interest, but why subject tourists to such crappy pizza?

Thanks for the clarification regarding your pizzamaking goals and preferences.  You're definitely ready for steel. Steel will take you towards NH, but without the incineration, so if the occasional Pepe pie brings you joy, you're going to be ecstatic with the results from steel.

Glad to hear you're not! Your credibility would have taken a pretty major hit. I guess it was all about the history. I remember saying to my son and brother (male bonding time while our wives were at some museum) while everybody else was oohing and aahing at Lombardi's, "Nothing to see here, people... keep moving along."  

I'll start looking for a local fabricator for a steel plate. My wife and son are going out of town next weekend, so I don't have to worry about anybody else's preferences.

I'll have to get to Marco's and take some photos.

Barry

[scott123]

People were oohing and aahing at Lombardi's? That's so sad 

For Manhattan, John's is good, but it's still nothing to write home about.  Next time you're down here, let us know and we'll get you some good pizza.

Have you been to Zuppardi's?