Author Topic: cool vs. room temp  (Read 1832 times)

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Offline Tory

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cool vs. room temp
« on: June 22, 2012, 04:31:46 PM »
I'm going to be making pizza with dough made from Caputo 00 flour. The dough has been doing a cold rise in the refrig for the last 20 hours. Since I've never done this 'cold rise' for pizza dough, so I'm wondering if it's better to remove the dough from the refrig just prior to stretching it for a crust (stretching it while it's still cold), or should I remove the dough from the fridge a few hours before to let it get to room temp before I try shaping it into a crust?


Offline Meatballs

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Re: cool vs. room temp
« Reply #1 on: June 22, 2012, 05:10:05 PM »
I try to remove the dough ball about 45 minutes before I want to cook it.  I poke it with my finger tips gently until it a disc about 3/4 inch thick and let it warm until I open it up.  works for me.  If the dough has only been refrigerated a day or so I try to give it more time, if it been refrigerated a week, Maybe 20 minutes.

Ron

Offline Jet_deck

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Re: cool vs. room temp
« Reply #2 on: June 22, 2012, 05:40:25 PM »
or should I remove the dough from the fridge a few hours before to let it get to room temp before I try shaping it into a crust?



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Offline Tscarborough

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Re: cool vs. room temp
« Reply #3 on: June 22, 2012, 05:40:53 PM »
Pretty much everyone here except for me will tell you to take it out prior.  i don't and suggest you at least try it.

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: cool vs. room temp
« Reply #4 on: June 22, 2012, 05:55:09 PM »
Tom,

You are not alone. See Bryan S post at Reply 3 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,6764.msg58270.html#msg58270.

Peter

Offline Ev

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Re: cool vs. room temp
« Reply #5 on: June 22, 2012, 07:16:41 PM »
I personally can go either way. You just need to learn to adjust your technique for various situations. Like, if it's cold, just open partially and let it rest a minute or two before proceeding.

Offline dmcavanagh

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Re: cool vs. room temp
« Reply #6 on: June 22, 2012, 07:24:09 PM »
If you're new and/or inexperienced at handling dough I would strongly advise that you give the dough a chance to warm before handling. Once you become adept at handling dough you're on your own.

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: cool vs. room temp
« Reply #7 on: June 22, 2012, 07:29:28 PM »
Tory,

I agree with Tom (Tscarborough) that is worth trying to open up your dough while it is cold. However, in my experience, the two most important things to consider in this regard is the hydration of the dough and the degree of fermentation. If the dough is a high hydration dough, it will most likely lend itself reasonably well to opening while cold. In fact, in some cases, that might be preferable to letting the dough warm up before opening because such a dough when warmed up might be too extensible. However, I can pretty much assure you that you will not be able to easily open up a cold dough with low hydration. For example, when I conducted my experiments with Mellow Mushroom clone dough balls, the hydration of those dough balls was around 51%. A couple percent of oil and copious amounts of molasses made the "effective" hydration of the dough balls around 54-55%. When those dough balls came out of the refrigerator, they were firm, stiff and dense. There was no way that I would have been able to open up those dough balls while cold. Similarly, when I was conducting experiments with Papa Gino's clone doughs, which had nominal hydration values of around 51% (plus a couple percent oil), those dough balls were also far too stiff to open up cold. But, interestingly, and somewhat surprisingly, when given about an hour or two at room temperature, both of those types of dough balls opened up quite nicely and easily, although the Mellow Mushroom skins still did exhibit a fair amount of elasticity even though it did not pose any problems.

Most of the big pizza chains have manuals that instruct workers in their stores as to when and how they should open up the dough balls. In two instances that I am personally aware of, those manuals instruct workers to open up the dough balls when their temperature is about 55 degrees F. As I have mentioned before, that is too cold for me. I shoot for something over 60 degrees F and as high as 70 degrees F. In Texas where I live, it does not take long for dough balls to rise to those temperatures, especially in the summer where room temperatures are considerably higher than the rest of the year. I have also found that the tempering of dough balls at room temperature also allows the dough balls to ferment more. It will often happen that a dough ball, especially one with a small amount of yeast, will not ferment as fast as one with considerably more yeast. As a result, there may not be much rise in the dough balls while in the refrigerator (this is a common complaint among our members, especially newbies). But, giving the dough an hour or two, or even longer, at room temperature allows the dough balls to ferment more and exhibit a noticeable rise. That makes the dough balls easier to open up.

What I have observed is that many of our members do not know why their dough balls should be tempered before using. Usually what you hear about is that the dough balls are easier to open up after they have warmed up. That may well be true but the main reason for letting the dough balls warm up before opening is that they are less prone to bubbling in the finished crust. This is something that comes through loud and clear when Tom Lehmann talks about this subject. An example is this post by Tom at the PMQ Think Tank: http://thinktank.pmq.com/viewtopic.php?p=13820#p13820. See also his post at http://thinktank.pmq.com/viewtopic.php?p=48918#p48918.

The main point I am trying to make is that not all dough balls can be opened up while cold. But if you know what to look for, you might be able to predict whether your dough balls will be easy or difficult to open up while cold. But, as Steve (Ev) mentioned, all is not lost when a dough ball does not readily submit to opening up cold. A brief rest here and there will usually solve the problem. I have also seen workers in pizza stores (most notably, Papa John's) use dough dockers on dough balls right out of the cooler. I have never seen a dough ball abused as much as when the PJ workers go to town with their dough dockers.

Peter






« Last Edit: June 22, 2012, 07:44:44 PM by Pete-zza »

Offline scott123

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Re: cool vs. room temp
« Reply #8 on: June 22, 2012, 07:55:57 PM »
Because I tend to push the hydration a tiny bit (1 or 2% above absorption value) and watch my gluten development carefully (short initial knead, re-ball 24 hours before forming) my dough is always a bit on the slack slide and always easy to handle- cold or room temp.

I've tested tempered vs. untempered dough a few times now, and I can't honestly see any better baking results. In theory, the water in the core of a colder dough should take longer to boil, resulting in a moister crumb, but I'm not seeing that. I believe, also, in theory, the cold dough could take longer to set in the oven, producing better oven spring, but I haven't experienced this either. I do use thick plastic containers that are pretty good insulators, so my 3 hour tempered dough isn't dramatically warmer than straight from the fridge (maybe a 15 degree difference), but when I've left the dough out for longer, it still seems to bake up the same.

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: cool vs. room temp
« Reply #9 on: June 22, 2012, 08:28:56 PM »
scott123,

You no doubt remember November's post on this subject at Reply 5 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,11878.msg110928.html#msg110928. That post was in a thread that you started.

See also November's Reply 15 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,5571.msg47222/topicseen.html#msg47222 and Reply 80 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,4462.msg38394/topicseen.html#msg38394.

Peter

Offline Chicago Bob

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Re: cool vs. room temp
« Reply #10 on: June 22, 2012, 09:31:24 PM »
I'm very curious as to why there seems to be a lot of talk/problems concerning.... this issue with the mobile wfo guys. Also, there are many, many posts where everyone is always talking about leaving it out for 2-3 hours for additional rise....I'm confused.
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Offline Pete-zza

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Re: cool vs. room temp
« Reply #11 on: June 22, 2012, 09:46:25 PM »
Bob,

I am sure that the mobile WFO guys can speak to the unique challenges that they experience with their dough management but most of the time that you read about letting the dough temper for a few hours it is for a home setting or a commercial indoor setting where one can control the dough quite well. But, in a mobile WFO operation, a good deal of the activity is outdoors with varying ambient temperatures. In the summer, those temperatures can be quite high, even brutal, leading to challenges in keeping the dough balls from overfermenting while at the same time filling customer orders without missing a beat. Moreover, in a home or commercial indoor setting, there is usually more equipment available for holding dough balls pending use. Norma seems to experience some of the same problems as the mobile WFO guys because she essentially operates outside, with temperatures that can go from the 40's to the 90's. I believe that most mobile WFO operators operate in warmer temperatures, not when the weather starts to turn cold. Otherwise, I suppose they would need other equipment, like mobile proofers, to get the dough ball to warm up enough to use.

Peter

Offline Chicago Bob

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Re: cool vs. room temp
« Reply #12 on: June 22, 2012, 10:19:31 PM »
Peter,

Thanks, I do understand the out door heat situation. But even there they have coolers or refrig. prep tables to store chilled dough balls... so why not simply open up cold? Or, even in a more controlled home or commercial setting....why all the fuss about "leave your dough ball out at room temperature for 2 hours" etc. etc.  There have been different suggestions for warmin it up in 10-20 min. time for ease of opening, great. I am just wondering if when you see the 2-3 hr. recommendation is this having something to do with further fermentation of that particular recipe or is it merely just sort of like a common suggestion or terminology that is stated with no real regard as in " pizza won't be right if you don't do this" Thanks Peter!

Bob


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Offline scott123

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Re: cool vs. room temp
« Reply #13 on: June 22, 2012, 11:52:38 PM »
scott123,

You no doubt remember November's post on this subject at Reply 5 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,11878.msg110928.html#msg110928. That post was in a thread that you started.

See also November's Reply 15 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,5571.msg47222/topicseen.html#msg47222 and Reply 80 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,4462.msg38394/topicseen.html#msg38394.

Peter


Thanks, Peter for bringing that to my attention.  In theory, November is correct, but, in practice, I'm not seeing it.  Perhaps there's a range of hydration where dough temperature has a greater impact, I don't know.  Until I can see proof and repeat it, though, I'm on the fence.

Offline Tory

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Re: cool vs. room temp
« Reply #14 on: June 23, 2012, 09:56:55 AM »
Well, I decided to split my dough ball in half, and let one dough ball warm up to room temp, and keep the other dough ball in the fridge until just before I would stretch it.

I have to say, the one I let warm up to room temp was much easier to stretch and work with than the one that was kept cold. I really liked working with this Caputo 00 Pizzeria flour.
It doesn't tear like AP flour seems to do, and I feel like I could get to where I could toss it without fear if ripping it apart.

The cold one I could get to stretch out, but it kept wanting to shrink back, so it took about twice as long to get it to a 12" diameter as the warm one did.

The hydration of the dough was at 62%, and as far as the fridge temp goes, I'm not sure what the temp of the fridge is, but it's cold and it doesn't get opened very often.

My biggest problem though was even though I had the transfer board very properly coated with semolina flour, I had a bit of a time trying to get the pizza into the oven.
The dough moved around easily enough on the board, but once the sauce and toppings went on, I felt like the pizza didn't want to move as easily. :(

Anyway, thanks for all your replies. :)

Tory

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: cool vs. room temp
« Reply #15 on: June 23, 2012, 10:00:42 AM »
I have to say, the one I let warm up to room temp was much easier to stretch and work with than the one that was kept cold.

Tory,

Did you actually let the dough warm up TO room temperature and, if so, what was that temperature and how long did the dough temper?

Peter

Offline moose13

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Re: cool vs. room temp
« Reply #16 on: June 23, 2012, 01:23:00 PM »
For me anyways, i can get a more consistent thickness if the dough is room temp.
I think the dough is more forgiving at room temp, easier for stretch and form.
I have tried it straight from the fridge and usually run into a paper thin middle with thicker edges.
I get a sauce pan of warm water and soak my dough container in it. About 15 minutes works for me.

Offline Chicago Bob

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Re: cool vs. room temp
« Reply #17 on: June 23, 2012, 03:47:12 PM »
If a recipe calls for you to "remove dough ball from refrigerator and allow to sit at room temperator for 2-3 hours" is that because it needs further warmer temperature fermentation to be "right" ?   Thank you.

Bob
« Last Edit: June 23, 2012, 03:49:37 PM by Chicago Bob »
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Offline norma427

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Re: cool vs. room temp
« Reply #18 on: June 23, 2012, 04:02:45 PM »
If a recipe calls for you to "remove dough ball from refrigerator and allow to sit at room temperator for 2-3 hours" is that because it needs further warmer temperature fermentation to be "right" ?   Thank you.

Bob

Bob,

In my opinion it all depends on if you used enough yeast in your formulation to get enough fermentation before it is left out for 2-3 hours for a warm-up.  If the dough has fermented enough, then I don’t see any need to let it out that long, unless you might want more products of fermentation for a better crust taste. Depending on how much your dough ball is already fermented it might even over fermented if the room temperature is too high if left out too long.  That is what can happen to me at market when the temperatures are hot with my dough balls.  Doughs with higher hydrations can also ferment faster at room temperature.  All different types of pizza dough seem to ferment differently too at room temperature.  It can be a tricky balance sometimes to know how long to let your dough balls warm-up, but after you have made different doughs, it will help to know by watching how the dough balls warm-up or ferment at room temperatures.

I still am not an expert on all of this, but just watch and observe.

Norma
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Offline Chicago Bob

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Re: cool vs. room temp
« Reply #19 on: June 23, 2012, 05:04:45 PM »
Norma,

Thank you. Once again you come through so clear and concise, I appreciate that..
I'm interested in the mobile aspect of selling pizza and got a 'lil confused there with the problems some are having with hot outdoor temps. mess'in with their flow. These are wfo's and even in a restaurant situation I think I now know why many say "leave it out for 2-3 hrs.etc,"....they are pushing the envelope of rise in order to try and get the maximum results out of the dough; flavor, texture, appearance....have I finally got this right?    :-D

Bob
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