cool vs. room temp

[norma427]

Bob,

Although I am not a mobile operator, with higher temperatures I can see how it could mess with their doughs too if they are left out too long, or in for a short while.  They also ferment very quickly if left out at higher temperatures.  I do take some doughs to Steve’s home and even keep some Nordic Ice in with the dough balls, but see how quickly they want to ferment when taken out where the ice is.  If the surfaces they are opening their dough are hot that can also mess with their dough and guess could even mess with how the dough balls open.  Steve and his friend are soon going to be opening their own WFO mobile business so it will be interesting to see if there are problems or not with their dough management.  Right now Steve does control temperature his Ischia doughs for use in his WFO.  I think if you look were Kelly posted about him trying to run his business at a farmer’s market you also will see there are problems when it is too warm.   He is also outside with his Weber.   

From the kitchens I have been in at pizzerias, most of them or warm and not as cool as where the pizzas are served.  I think most pizzerias do have some sort of dough ball management for their dough balls, or those dough balls would get out of hand quickly too. 

When someone only makes a few dough balls they are a lot easier to manage than a lot of dough balls.

Norma

[Pete-zza]

Bob,

I would guess that I have read Tom Lehmann's advice on this matter (see, for example, item 14 in Reply 18 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,7499.msg64554/topicseen.html#msg64554) a few hundred times over the years, and it has always been my understanding that the main purpose of the temper period is to prevent or minimize unwanted or excessive bubbling in the finished crust. That temper time might be brief or it might be long. The optimum temper period will depend not only on the dough formulation itself but also on the temperature of the dough balls when they come out of the refrigerator or cooler, the size/weight of the dough balls, and the ambient room temperature. This is not a one-size-fits-all kind of situation.

The above said, it is also true that during the temper period the dough will be subjected to further fermentation. However, ideally you want to design the dough formulation and manage the dough balls made using that formulation so that they are ready to be used at the desired time, subject to the use of a temper period as discussed above. Admittedly, there are people who use the temper period to do from a fermentation standpoint that which they should have done while the dough balls were in the refrigerator or cooler. Some will also push the additional fermentation to the max in search of more fermentation byproducts. In some cases, that can take much longer than just a few hours. Extending the temper period to allow further fermentation should take care of the possibility of bubbles forming in the finished crust.

Another point I'd like to make is that one should be careful about using a temper time that is too long, and particularly where the hydration of the dough is high, typically above the rated absorption value of the flour in question. If a dough with a high hydration is tempered for too long, it can ferment further and become highly extensible and difficult to handle. It might even be prone to sticking to the peel. In Tory's case, he was using a hydration of 62% for a flour (Caputo 00 flour) that has a rated absorption value of around 57-58%. Also, since he divided the dough ball in half, the smaller dough ball would have tempered faster than the entire initial dough ball. That is why I asked Tory about temperatures and temper times.

I don't know how the above plays out in a mobile WFO operation. However, as member Jay pointed out at Reply 53 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,9376.msg82322.html#msg82322, the biggest challenge he experienced at the time of his post was controlling dough temperature before events.

Peter

[Chicago Bob]

Norma & Peter,
Thanks so much for taking the time out to help walk me through these baby steps...excellent information.
I am fortunate(?) in that within the area I live most people haven't a clue as to how good a high heat prepared pizza can be...many are educated about it but left only to flock to 1 or 2 places that fall way short of delivering the goods. And this is just with 4 min. NY pizzas . That is the area of baking that I intend to approach for now and your cool vs room temp advice you've shared here will no doubt apply in that arena also, thanks again.

Bob

[Jackitup]

Here's my 2 cents. High hydration doughs I use pretty much out of the fridge. It warms up pretty fast as you get it thinner with a couple of short rests if needed. The cold dough is easier to work with than a warm high hydration dough. Low hydration doughs conversely are easier to use as they warm. So, high is cold and low is warm. Not cut in stone but an ok rule of thumb to start with in my experience.
Jon

[pizzablogger]

Bob,

I think if you look were Kelly posted about him trying to run his business at a farmer’s market you also will see there are problems when it is too warm.   He is also outside with his Weber.    

Norma

This is one of the most significant challenges I am facing, having only done the market six times now. On some Sunday mornings, the temperature difference has been as much as a 30°F swing over the course of the market (from 7am to 12 noon).  In addition, sunlight does hit my make table for the first three hours. Add in two ovens dumping hot air into the tent and the temperatures can be quite high as noon approaches.

I keep a small tupperware rectangular container filled with ice in my smaller cooler with the cheeses in it. I constantly take a temperature reading of the inside of the dough cooler. If it gets up above 75-77°F, I put the small tupperware of ice into the dough cooler (I call it "the brake") to lower the temps a bit and remove the ice container when the temps lower towards 70°F in the dough cooler. In addition, I have some dough out to the side of the make table exposed to the elements....and sometimes the sun falls on the dough. Sometimes the doughs outside the cooler awaiting shaping can get over 80°F very quickly (sub 15 minutes) when the air temp is over 90°F. So it is a dance of putting hotter doughs left out back into the dough cooler and moving the small ice container in and out of the dough cooler. I don't even pretend to have this mastered yet....that will take many tries. And then there are the Greek marble tiles I shape on...they get hot and I have backups in the cooler to swap out on when the dough gets sticky on the warm tiles.

Generally, with my 60-62% hydration doughs made from a mix of 00 and high gluten flours (85-15 mix), I favor shaping the doughs when they are in the 72-77 range. The high percentage of 00 flour and the naturally leavened dough tend to result in an extensible dough even in the mid 60°F range.  At 75° or so they become mostly effortless to open up and shape. Above 80° the dough balls become tricky to work with.....difficult to remove from the trays without the dough drooping over the dough spatula and definitely harder to launch without sticking to the peel.

As far as when to remove the dough from refrigeration (from the cooler actually, they are never "refrigerated" below 60°), in my case at the market there is no definitive answer. Some mornings the dough is below 60° and I purposefully stick a tray or two in the sun (covered by a towel) for a time to warm them up. Sometimes the need for ice as previously described. There is no definitive answer when the environment you are cooking in can vary dramatically from day to day or even from hour to hour. There is definitely some guesswork, luck, disasters and victory all mixed into the equation!  

[Chicago Bob]

Thank you Kelly, very informative. So I guess the best way to go would be to have a seperate refrig. dough storage that I can keep close to room temp.(or whatever temp. depending on what dough)  Thanks.

[pizzablogger]

Thank you Kelly, very informative. So I guess the best way to go would be to have a seperate refrig. dough storage that I can keep close to room temp.(or whatever temp. depending on what dough)  Thanks.

Yes, ideally it would be optimal to have a temperature controlled environment....regardless of desired fermentation temp.

I know Omid was using marble tiles to create a chamber in the bottom most part of his house to maintain a desired temperature.  I ferment in my basement where it is typically between 60-65°F most of the year.  Craig uses a cooler and cups of ice to keep his fermentation temps near 65°F.  Bill SFNM uses a thermokool chamber to keep an even fermentation temperature (I believe for both his starters and his dough).

The more variable the temperatures during fermentation, the more varied the outcome will be. --K