Author Topic: Fermentation: a science-based look suggests RT is better for flavor  (Read 4641 times)

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Offline TXCraig1

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Re: Fermentation: a science-based look suggests RT is better for flavor
« Reply #75 on: January 26, 2016, 02:35:41 PM »
With respect to Reinhart, there is no doubt that he recommends cold fermentation, but I maintain it is primarily because it is a much simpler way to accomplish much the same thing. In Crust and Crumb, he writes:

"I knew very little of the chemistry when I made my first successful loaf in 1978. I was simply following Julia Child's meticulous directions for French bread. Looking through various bread books of the time, I noticed that almost all other recipes for french bread instructed the home baker to form the loaves after the first rise and bake them after the second, just as with sandwich bread. (The notion, I think was that home cooks wanted to get things done quickly.) But oh, what a difference Julia Child's extra rise made in the finished product."

What temperature did Julia Child recommend that led Reinhart to win two breadmaking contests and launch is baking career? From Mastering the Art of French Cooking Volume Two:

"... it must rise in the low 70's if you can possibly manage it, or at an even lower temperature if you wish to delay the process." She goes on to write "Although it will take you a minimum of 7 hours from start to finish for most of these recipes, that does not mean you are hovering over the dough for 7 straight hours. During almost all of this time, the dough is sitting quietly by itself, rising in one form or another. Because you can slow down the rise by lowering the temperature, you may let it sit in the refrigerator when you go out, and continue when you return." Thus, although you cannot successfully speed things up, you can otherwise fit bread making into almost any pattern that suits your schedule."

Again, we see 70F is the temperature, and the refrigerator is simply a tool to make the logistics work for the home cook.
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Online the1mu

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Re: Fermentation: a science-based look suggests RT is better for flavor
« Reply #76 on: January 26, 2016, 07:03:30 PM »
Actually, I am pretty sure Reinhart fully believes CF=better for flavor process.

From BBA
Quote
Believe me, you will never achieve a legendary bagel without the benefits of a long, slow, cold fermentation, which allows the naturally occurring enzymes (and any additional enzymes provided by the malt) to release flavors. Making a bagel without this step is like drinking a fine wine just after it’s been put in the bottle. The flavors are there in potential, but not fully realized.[\quote]

And again (regarding his process for sourdough)
Quote
but by using cold fermentation (retarding), we develop maximum flavor without all the intermediate builds.[\quote]

There are a few more, but these are the most explicit. However, I will also point out that he never says CF is better than RT ferment. So, who knows what his current thoughts are.

Also, a disclaimer, I am not supporting one side or the other, simply providing quotes of one expert who seems to favor CF as "better" and not just for logistical reasons.

Offline TXCraig1

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Re: Fermentation: a science-based look suggests RT is better for flavor
« Reply #77 on: January 26, 2016, 07:15:36 PM »
I'd love for him to opine directly on the question whether he believes something happens at CF temps that doesn't happen at RT. There is zero question that enzymatic activity is a function of temperature and that it increases with temperature up to the point where the temperature starts to denature the enzyme. That much is absolutely indisputable.
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Online the1mu

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Re: Fermentation: a science-based look suggests RT is better for flavor
« Reply #78 on: January 26, 2016, 07:19:55 PM »
Here is a quote of him espousing the CF methods of Gosselin. I am not quoting the whole passage as it is not directly relatable to this but this section I think is close to the question you pose above but still not exactly what you are asking for.

This technique has the potential to change the entire bread landscape in America. I’ve begun teaching it to my students, both at Johnson & Wales University and across the country in my classes for home bakers. Within the next few years I fully expect to see variations of this method appearing in both artisan bakeshops and at the industry level. It is the next frontier in breads. When we deconstruct the process, it takes us beyond fermentation, actually beneath fermentation, down to the level of enzymes. It is the enzyme that serves as the catalytic converter, freeing up the sugars that are bound up in the complex starches of flour. The delayed-fermentation technique, revealed to me by Gosselin, and intuited by many others without knowing why, is all about how enzymes affect fermentation and release flavor. At culinary schools we teach a fundamental principle: Flavor rules. But to release flavors, remember enzymes.

Offline TXCraig1

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Re: Fermentation: a science-based look suggests RT is better for flavor
« Reply #79 on: January 26, 2016, 07:38:25 PM »
Here is a quote of him espousing the CF methods of Gosselin. I am not quoting the whole passage as it is not directly relatable to this but this section I think is close to the question you pose above but still not exactly what you are asking for.

This technique has the potential to change the entire bread landscape in America. I’ve begun teaching it to my students, both at Johnson & Wales University and across the country in my classes for home bakers. Within the next few years I fully expect to see variations of this method appearing in both artisan bakeshops and at the industry level. It is the next frontier in breads. When we deconstruct the process, it takes us beyond fermentation, actually beneath fermentation, down to the level of enzymes. It is the enzyme that serves as the catalytic converter, freeing up the sugars that are bound up in the complex starches of flour. The delayed-fermentation technique, revealed to me by Gosselin, and intuited by many others without knowing why, is all about how enzymes affect fermentation and release flavor. At culinary schools we teach a fundamental principle: Flavor rules. But to release flavors, remember enzymes.

Again, because CF is better or because it is simply a much easier way to ferment for a long period of time?
"We make great pizza, with sourdough when we can, commercial yeast when we must, but always great pizza."
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Offline TXCraig1

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Re: Fermentation: a science-based look suggests RT is better for flavor
« Reply #80 on: January 26, 2016, 07:45:23 PM »
From BBA
And again (regarding his process for sourdough)
but by using cold fermentation (retarding), we develop maximum flavor without all the intermediate builds.[\quote]

Also from BBA regarding SD:

"Bear in mind that this system is designed for home baking and takes into consideration that home bakers do not have a crew to whom they can pass on feeding schedules. Very few people, for instance, have climate-controlled proof boxes that produce consistent results day after day. We fly without such a safety net (and so do many professional artisan bakers, by choice), but we still have the power to manipulate time and temperature to create amazing bread. The use of refrigeration is a modern invention not available to the great bakers of previous centuries. They did their manipulations by scrupulous attention to feeding cycles. Cold fermentation gives us a wider berth and a greater margin of error, and allows us to call our shots regarding when to take the next step in the twelve-stage process of bread making." (Emphasis added is mine).

This sure sounds a lot like why I said CF is often recommended - as does "without all the intermediate builds."
« Last Edit: January 26, 2016, 07:47:46 PM by TXCraig1 »
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Online the1mu

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Re: Fermentation: a science-based look suggests RT is better for flavor
« Reply #81 on: January 26, 2016, 07:53:44 PM »
Again, I'm not agreeing or disagreeing, however I read the quotes above as him not just liking for convenience but in fact claiming it to develop more complex flavors. He never, in that whole book recommends a lower temp (70° ish) long ferment for better flavor. Just CF and in BBA he is in LOVE with the Gosselin methods.

Offline Jackitup

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Re: Fermentation: a science-based look suggests RT is better for flavor
« Reply #82 on: January 26, 2016, 08:00:16 PM »
Here's my 2¢ and I'm out because a lot of this is out of my league in regards to fermenting with different flours, yeasts etc. Buuuuut, CF delays EVERYTHING!! Decay, function, activity, production, growth, etc, etc.......no argument. Warmth or heat with anything makes all more active but the window of viabilty is less. Either one you get diminishing returns at some point. What ever works for any given situation is the one that should be used. Most of us here can figure that out.
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« Last Edit: January 27, 2016, 02:21:53 PM by Tscarborough »
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Offline TXCraig1

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Re: Fermentation: a science-based look suggests RT is better for flavor
« Reply #83 on: January 26, 2016, 08:01:32 PM »
however I read the quotes above as him not just liking for convenience but in fact claiming it to develop more complex flavors.

Maybe so. I'm going to see if I can ask him directly.
"We make great pizza, with sourdough when we can, commercial yeast when we must, but always great pizza."
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Online the1mu

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Re: Fermentation: a science-based look suggests RT is better for flavor
« Reply #84 on: January 26, 2016, 08:06:23 PM »

Maybe so. I'm going to see if I can ask him directly.

Awesome! Would love to hear his response.

Offline TXCraig1

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Re: Fermentation: a science-based look suggests RT is better for flavor
« Reply #85 on: January 26, 2016, 09:20:01 PM »
Me too. Hopefully he will.
"We make great pizza, with sourdough when we can, commercial yeast when we must, but always great pizza."
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Offline f80

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Re: Fermentation: a science-based look suggests RT is better for flavor
« Reply #86 on: January 27, 2016, 05:17:59 AM »
Buongiorno ragazzi.
Salve a tutti, sono nuovo, e mi sono presentato sulla sezione apposita, come da dovere!

Bene! Ho conosciuto questo prezioso thread tramite Stefano, un amico conosciuto da poco.

Provo a dire la mia, cercando di essere breve e conciso per non disperdere il focus:

Con la TEMPERATURA AMBIENTE (16-25 C°), e con semplici 12-16-20 ore di lievitomaturazione, ottieni aromi, sofficità, leggerezza, digeribilità
che il frigo a 2-8 C° può darti, ma in più tempo. (24-48-72 ore)

Io dico  che il discorso è sempre lo stesso.

In un viaggio NAPOLI - MILANO puoi arrivarci in 1 ora con l'aereo o in 10 ore con l'auto. O in 5 ore con il treno.
L'importante è arrivare a MILANO...

La TEMPERATURA AMBIENTE e la TEMPERATURA CONTROLLATA ti possono portare allo stesso identico risultato:
Con un punto a favore sulla T.A. per il flavour
e un punto a favore per la T.C. per la semplicità di gestione del lavoro.

Sulla shelf - life, il discorso cambia: Un diretto, lungo o corto che sia, TA o TC, non potrà mai incidere tanto sulla quantità necessaria di lattobacilli.

Se cerchi anche Shelf-Life devi obbligatoriamente virare su un metodo indiretto. (biga, poolish, lievito madre, pasta di riporto)

Questo è il mio pensiero.

Buona giornata a tutti.

N.B. Scusate se ho scritto in italiano, spero non vi scoccia tradurre con google translator!!! :-)

Resto a vostra disposizione per qualsiasi cosa.

A presto

Francesco

Offline fagilia

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Re: Fermentation: a science-based look suggests RT is better for flavor
« Reply #87 on: January 28, 2016, 06:00:44 AM »
Here is my contribution to this.
We make many test everyday so i thought to do this.

2 different doughs 68% water and total 24 hour ferment for both.
1 dough was in fridge first 12 hours bulk and the balled and baked after 12 more hours.
2 dough was donw all fermentation in room temp 12 hour bulk and 12 hour ball

At time of baking both doughs were raised equal much as dough one was made with more compressed yeast to match the slower fermentation.

Result is not so much differnece in taste. Cornicione is a bit difficult to taste. You could feel difference by smelling. We tried to make more dough in cornicione here.
Dough 2 was more smell and better smell. 10 personos tried this and all could tell.
As for texture is is hard to say i think one need to make at least 200 of exach to say if better or not. Test with 6 pizzas is not enough.
The variable of the oven and handling on bench can easy destroy conclutions here. I am biased since i like room temp but in conclusion room temp dough had more smell  in this test.
More test are needed.
Left is cold ferment
« Last Edit: January 28, 2016, 06:02:39 AM by fagilia »

Offline schold

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Re: Fermentation: a science-based look suggests RT is better for flavor
« Reply #88 on: January 28, 2016, 04:44:31 PM »
f80: È un post interessante, ed i punti sono buoni, ma dimmi: Perchè andrai a Milano? È una città senza anima.
Cooking is not a recipe, it's a philosophy - unless it's pastry, then it's chemistry.

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Offline stormholloway

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Re: Fermentation: a science-based look suggests RT is better for flavor
« Reply #89 on: January 29, 2016, 05:02:43 AM »
Awesome! Would love to hear his response.

Response to what?

Offline f80

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Re: Fermentation: a science-based look suggests RT is better for flavor
« Reply #90 on: January 29, 2016, 06:03:08 AM »
f80: È un post interessante, ed i punti sono buoni, ma dimmi: Perchè andrai a Milano? È una città senza anima.

ahahahahaha

infatti! non ci sono mai stato! Napoli è il paese del sole! Milano il paese della nebbia!

Online the1mu

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Re: Fermentation: a science-based look suggests RT is better for flavor
« Reply #91 on: January 29, 2016, 06:53:45 AM »

Response to what?

Whether or not Reinhart believes CF gives better flavor than RT ferment.


Offline TXCraig1

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Re: Fermentation: a science-based look suggests RT is better for flavor
« Reply #92 on: February 02, 2016, 11:18:05 AM »
Maybe so. I'm going to see if I can ask him directly.

Professor Reinhart and I traded emails, and he confirmed that in his experience, slow room temp. fermentation can certainly achieve peak flavor development. He noted that the big advantage of cold fermentation is that it provides more flexibility to the baker, and he also commented that he had similar discussions with Dr. Gänzle about the microbiology of dough as I noted earlier in the thread.
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Craig's Neapolitan Garage

Offline mitchjg

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Re: Fermentation: a science-based look suggests RT is better for flavor
« Reply #93 on: February 02, 2016, 11:22:46 AM »
Professor Reinhart and I traded emails, and he confirmed that in his experience, slow room temp. fermentation can certainly achieve peak flavor development. He noted that the big advantage of cold fermentation is that it provides more flexibility to the baker, and he also commented that he had similar discussions with Dr. Gänzle about the microbiology of dough as I noted earlier in the thread.

Did he actually comment one way or the other that RT is better - i.e. room temperature can achieve peak flavor development, but can CF also achieve peak flavor development or does it fall short of RT?
Mitch

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Offline TXCraig1

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Re: Fermentation: a science-based look suggests RT is better for flavor
« Reply #94 on: February 02, 2016, 11:31:12 AM »
Did he actually comment one way or the other that RT is better - i.e. room temperature can achieve peak flavor development, but can CF also achieve peak flavor development or does it fall short of RT?

No. My read is that in general, he thinks both paths can get you to about the same end, but the logistical advantages of CF are really valuable and have driven a lot of the technique seen in modern baking.
"We make great pizza, with sourdough when we can, commercial yeast when we must, but always great pizza."
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Offline mitchjg

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Re: Fermentation: a science-based look suggests RT is better for flavor
« Reply #95 on: February 02, 2016, 12:08:45 PM »
No. My read is that in general, he thinks both paths can get you to about the same end, but the logistical advantages of CF are really valuable and have driven a lot of the technique seen in modern baking.

Thanks!
Mitch

“We hate math,” says 4 in 10 – a majority of Americans

Offline stormholloway

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Re: Fermentation: a science-based look suggests RT is better for flavor
« Reply #96 on: February 02, 2016, 12:56:28 PM »
If you could dedicate a walk-in fridge to 65 degree temps that would seem like a no-brainer in a commercial setting given how well the doughs turn out and the fact that cooling a fridge to that temp would be hugely economical. That's something I would definitely consider in a restaurant.

Offline Jon in Albany

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Re: Fermentation: a science-based look suggests RT is better for flavor
« Reply #97 on: February 02, 2016, 10:09:43 PM »
If there was more anyone wanted ask Peter Reinhart, he will be doing an "Ask Me Anything" live session on the Forno Bravo forum. Just saw it in the newsletter that came out today. From the letter:

Do you have questions about bread making? Join us for our first AMA with author, chef, baker and host of Pizza Quest Peter Reinhart! The AMA will take place on Monday, February 15, 2016, from 7:00 pm to 8:00 pm EST. If you are unable to be online during the live session, you can post your questions in the Forum here and view Peter's answers after the live AMA.

In the letter, the word "here" is the following link:

http://app.streamsend.com/c/25932555/11739/3EbXgro/BYkJ?redirect_to=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.fornobravo.com%2Fcommunity%2Fforum%2Fask-me-anything%2Fask-me-anything-aa%2F385214-i-m-peter-reinhart-ask-me-anything-post-your-questions-here%3Futm_source%3Dstreamsend%26utm_medium%3Demail%26utm_content%3D25932555%26utm_campaign%3DWood%2520Fired%2520Newsletter%2520-%2520January%25202016

Offline NorthernPIzza

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Re: Fermentation: a science-based look suggests RT is better for flavor
« Reply #98 on: February 04, 2016, 03:08:00 AM »
Hi Craig,
very interesting post, thank you for posting!

We went to pizza school a few months ago before opening our restaurant (still not open, but thats another story), and did a few different fermentations.
bulk fermented RT for 2 hours, balled, and CF for 24,48, and 72 hrs, followed by a 3 hours at RT before using.

The 72hr CF was my favorite in terms of flavour profile and ease of use (was quite "wet", didn't require much work to slap out)
but the problem is, 72 hr fermentation process would require a TON of refrigeration room in a commercial setting.
 I will play around with the recipes and techniques you have listed in this thread and see if I can reduce this time. RF sounds like a logical way to proceed. so again, thank you! 

Offline TXCraig1

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Re: Fermentation: a science-based look suggests RT is better for flavor
« Reply #99 on: February 08, 2016, 06:12:02 PM »
Here is another very detailed post on the subject:

http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=14506.msg415361#msg415361
"We make great pizza, with sourdough when we can, commercial yeast when we must, but always great pizza."
Craig's Neapolitan Garage