Author Topic: Why did my dough not rise in the oven?  (Read 5554 times)

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Offline miner_tom

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Why did my dough not rise in the oven?
« on: June 25, 2012, 11:19:56 PM »
Hi to the Pizza making community.

I recently had an epic failure when I tried making Sicilian Style pizza. I tried this several times and with two different kinds of flour.

First, I used the same high Gluten flour that I used when making NY style crust. I tried using less salt, not wanting it to interfere with the yeast.

Gold Medal "Better for Bread" flour: 3 cups
Salt:                                                   :1/2 teaspoon.
Sugar:                                                : 1 teaspoon
Water:                                                : 1 cup + 1 Tablespoon
Oil                                                      : 2 Tablespoons
Yeast (active dry yeast)                    : 2 packages.

The dough was left to rise for about two hours. It did rise substantially. I pushed it down and then stretched it in a pan.
For the first trial, I tried baking the dough without sauce, since I just wanted to see how much it would rise. I have been told that it should rise like a focaccia bread. This was a MONUMENTAL failure. The dough did not rise at all and got hard. My Chickens got fed that bread.

The second trial used almost the same ingredients as above but with an all purpose flour. It rose a little more but was still flatter than what I would expect a Sicilian Pizza to be. When I visit NYC I can get Sicilan Pizza that has a thick but very light crust.

Also, in cooking the crust, I put the pan on a Pizza stone, so as to emulate how it is cooked in a NYC Pizza parlor.

Can someone give me  some idea of what i am doing wrong?

Thank You
Tom
« Last Edit: June 25, 2012, 11:24:54 PM by miner_tom »


Offline dmcavanagh

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Re: Why did my dough not rise in the oven?
« Reply #1 on: June 26, 2012, 09:37:15 AM »
Tom

You have to tell us a little more. First, your yeast might have been old or improperly stored and therefore dead, but this is highly unlikely. Second, you might have killed the yeast by using overly hot water, (you didn't tell us anything about either of these subjects). Third, 2 packets of yeast for a three cup flour recipe is outrageous. Perhaps the yeast proffed so fast it was exhausted by the time you baked. Give us more info and we can help you.

buceriasdon

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Re: Why did my dough not rise in the oven?
« Reply #2 on: June 26, 2012, 09:54:20 AM »
Tom, Did you cover the stretched dough in the pan and allow it to rise again?
Don

Offline miner_tom

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Re: Why did my dough not rise in the oven?
« Reply #3 on: June 26, 2012, 12:50:17 PM »
Tom, Did you cover the stretched dough in the pan and allow it to rise again?
Don

No, I did not cover the stretched dough in the pan and allow it to rise again. Did not even know that was the process, but I will try that.

Thank You
Tom

Offline miner_tom

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Re: Why did my dough not rise in the oven?
« Reply #4 on: June 26, 2012, 12:54:01 PM »
Tom

You have to tell us a little more. First, your yeast might have been old or improperly stored and therefore dead, but this is highly unlikely. Second, you might have killed the yeast by using overly hot water, (you didn't tell us anything about either of these subjects). Third, 2 packets of yeast for a three cup flour recipe is outrageous. Perhaps the yeast proffed so fast it was exhausted by the time you baked. Give us more info and we can help you.

Thank you for your response.

As you suspect, I believe that the yeast was fine.

I used only warm water, certainly not hot.

I am an amateur (an engineer by profession and not a baker) so I did not realize that I can overly proof the dough. Perhaps this is what happened. How can I avoid this?

Can you give me some hints on dough handling for Sicilian Style dough?

Thank you kindly.

Tom





Online Pete-zza

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Re: Why did my dough not rise in the oven?
« Reply #5 on: June 26, 2012, 03:37:11 PM »
Tom,

I'd be curious to know where you got the recipe you used, and also the processes you followed to make the dough.

I agree with dmcavanagh that the yeast is highly excessive. Also, your salt content is extremely low.

Peter

Offline pizzablogger

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Re: Why did my dough not rise in the oven?
« Reply #6 on: June 26, 2012, 03:41:52 PM »
I recently had an epic failure when I tried making Sicilian Style pizza.

Join the club.....welcome to disasterville!  :)

Won't be the last time.

You mentioned you let the dough rise for 2 hours and it rose "substantially".

During the two hours was the dough left on your kitchen counter?  If so, about what temperature was it inside of the kitchen.....was it warm?

What do you mean by "substantially"?  Would you guess that the dough doubled in volume?

After you punched down the dough and stretched it into the pan, how long was it left in the pan before baking?  

If you baked it immediately after stretching, did you potentially stretch the dough in a rough manner and degass much of the built-up CO2 within the dough?

What was the temperature within the oven when you baked the sicilian?  How long did the pizza stone pre-heat at that temperature for?

What type of pan are you using? Is it aluminim, steel, some other metal? What color is it?

It is difficult to say what went wrong without some more information.

Assuming you used a typical 0.75 oz pack of Active Dried Yeast (ADY), those two packs would equate to roughly 11.75% of the formula flour.  That's a lot of ADY in a formula, but not entirely sure that is the sole issue.

As far as the pizza stone, I highly recommend placing your Sicilian pan on top of that when baking. I get better spring cooking on a stone. -k

"It's Baltimore, gentlemen, the gods will not save you." --Burrell

Online Pete-zza

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Re: Why did my dough not rise in the oven?
« Reply #7 on: June 26, 2012, 03:58:42 PM »
A standard packet of ADY or IDY at the supermarket weighs 0.25 ounces, or 7 grams. A total of 0.50 ounces for two packets comes to about 6.5% of the formula flour. Very high by any measure.

Peter

Offline pizzablogger

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Re: Why did my dough not rise in the oven?
« Reply #8 on: June 26, 2012, 04:13:19 PM »
A standard packet of ADY or IDY at the supermarket weighs 0.25 ounces, or 7 grams. A total of 0.50 ounces for two packets comes to about 6.5% of the formula flour. Very high by any measure.

Peter

You are correct. Why I had 0.75 ounces remembered in my head is beyond me. Then again, I haven't used a packet of ADY in many a moon.  :-[

Yes, even at 6.50% of FF, that is very high.

Thanks for the correction Peter. --K
"It's Baltimore, gentlemen, the gods will not save you." --Burrell

Offline miner_tom

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Re: Why did my dough not rise in the oven?
« Reply #9 on: June 27, 2012, 02:18:20 AM »
Join the club.....welcome to disasterville!  :)

Won't be the last time.

You mentioned you let the dough rise for 2 hours and it rose "substantially".

Yes, I expect that the dough at least doubled in size

During the two hours was the dough left on your kitchen counter?  If so, about what temperature was it inside of the kitchen.....was it warm?

It was somewhat cool in the kitchen because it was a cool day here in Northern California, which is unusual for this time of year

What do you mean by "substantially"?  Would you guess that the dough doubled in volume?

Yes

After you punched down the dough and stretched it into the pan, how long was it left in the pan before baking?

Not long. I did a little proofing so that I could stretch it easier but basically, after it was stretched in the pan I put it in the oven. 

If you baked it immediately after stretching, did you potentially stretch the dough in a rough manner and degass much of the built-up CO2 within the dough?

Well, I don't think that I was all that rough. In fact i noticed that there was still some thickness to the dough. I did not do anything like put it through any kind of a press.

What was the temperature within the oven when you baked the sicilian?  How long did the pizza stone pre-heat at that temperature for?

I am going to say that the temp of the oven was set at 525 F. The Pizza stone pre-heated for at least two hours. It is an inch thick in places, not one of the really thin ones that you sometimes see.

What type of pan are you using? Is it aluminim, steel, some other metal? What color is it?

The only information on the pan was a stamp that said "Chicago Metallic". It is a pretty hefty pan so I would think that it would have to be steel.

It is difficult to say what went wrong without some more information.

Assuming you used a typical 0.75 oz pack of Active Dried Yeast (ADY), those two packs would equate to roughly 11.75% of the formula flour.  That's a lot of ADY in a formula, but not entirely sure that is the sole issue.

As far as the pizza stone, I highly recommend placing your Sicilian pan on top of that when baking. I get better spring cooking on a stone. -k



Ok Pizzablogger, I believe that I have answered your quesitons. I hope that you can shed some light on "disasterville".

Thank You
Tom



Offline norma427

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Re: Why did my dough not rise in the oven?
« Reply #10 on: June 27, 2012, 09:19:13 AM »
miner_tom,

I donít know if you if you are interested in the Sicilian pies I am making now, but this is the formulation I am using at Reply 26 http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,18281.msg178345.html#msg178345  The methods I use to make the kind of Sicilian I have experimented with for market, is documented in that thread.  You can see I did try different flours.  The hydration can be dropped by a percent or so.  I have done that in the last few weeks.  ADY can be switched for the IDY, but it will be a different amount. 

If you are interested and have any other questions, just ask.

Norma
Always working and looking for new information!

Offline dmcavanagh

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Re: Why did my dough not rise in the oven?
« Reply #11 on: June 27, 2012, 10:26:34 AM »
Tom

Like Norma said, reading through some of the material you can find here, especially the "Sicilian Style" section in your case would be of much greater help than expecting one person to solve all your problems. Really too comprehensive a topic for one to answer in one posting. Keep reading and learning and your pizza will be what you want it to be.

Offline miner_tom

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Re: Why did my dough not rise in the oven?
« Reply #12 on: June 27, 2012, 01:14:33 PM »
miner_tom,

I donít know if you if you are interested in the Sicilian pies I am making now, but this is the formulation I am using at Reply 26 http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,18281.msg178345.html#msg178345  The methods I use to make the kind of Sicilian I have experimented with for market, is documented in that thread.  You can see I did try different flours.  The hydration can be dropped by a percent or so.  I have done that in the last few weeks.  ADY can be switched for the IDY, but it will be a different amount.  

If you are interested and have any other questions, just ask.

Norma


Hi Norma and thank you for all of the help so far. I did look at your reply 26 link and examined the recipe.

The first thing that I noticed was that there was no oil added to the dough. Every Pizza dough recipe that I have seen has oil in it. Now, I have read that oil tends to interfere with the hydration of the flour. is this the reason that you have no oil added?

Ok, so putting the dough issues aside, how do you treat your dough? Do you let the dough rise in the refrigerator? Do you have different proofing stages? How hot is the oven? Do you put the pan on a stone?

That Pizza looked light and airy and I can't wait to try making it.

Thank You
Tom


« Last Edit: June 27, 2012, 01:17:06 PM by miner_tom »

Offline pizzablogger

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Re: Why did my dough not rise in the oven?
« Reply #13 on: June 27, 2012, 02:41:03 PM »
The pizza pan you are using may be a potential issue.

I initially used a thicker pan, which actually ended up bending when I was doing my initial experiments with high temperature square pizza bakes directly under my broiler.

That pan was replaced a few years ago with a much thinner, aluminum pan rated to withstand very high temperatures. I'm not sold that it's the aluminum that is the key, but that the pan is thin. Remember that the pan is not pre-heated in the oven and basically goes into the oven at the room temperature the pan and dough were sitting out in. More pan mass equates to more time for the heat of the oven to reach the bottom and sides of your pizza and help to produce lift.

I would try a thinner pan, use less yeast and allow the dough to proof in the pan for a longer period of time, as in a couple of hours. This would be particularly true if your dough was refrigerated during the initial fermentation period.  In this instance, allowing the dough to warm back up to room temperatures may help with your issue.

Just some thoughts. --K
"It's Baltimore, gentlemen, the gods will not save you." --Burrell

Offline norma427

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Re: Why did my dough not rise in the oven?
« Reply #14 on: June 27, 2012, 03:43:27 PM »
Hi Norma and thank you for all of the help so far. I did look at your reply 26 link and examined the recipe.

The first thing that I noticed was that there was no oil added to the dough. Every Pizza dough recipe that I have seen has oil in it. Now, I have read that oil tends to interfere with the hydration of the flour. is this the reason that you have no oil added?

Ok, so putting the dough issues aside, how do you treat your dough? Do you let the dough rise in the refrigerator? Do you have different proofing stages? How hot is the oven? Do you put the pan on a stone?

That Pizza looked light and airy and I can't wait to try making it.

Thank You
Tom





Tom,

I have tried different types of Sicilian pizzas on my journey with different formulations.  I found I really do not need oil in the formulations most of the time for Sicilian pies.  The oil in the steel pan does fry the bottom crust and I think that the crust is airier without oil.  The dough in a Sicilian pie is different than some other pizza doughs.  It is sandwiched between the cheeses and bottom oiling in the pan. 

My dough is either mixed in my Kitchen Aid mixer or my Hobart 20 qt. mixer with the paddle attachement first.  Then it is scrapped off the paddle attachment and then the dough hook is used to finish mixing the dough.  With either my Kitchen Aid or my Hobart the mix time is only about 6 minutes.  On my Kitchen Aid and Hobart I only mix on speed 1.  The dough might want to climb the hook, but I just stop the machine remove the dough from the hook, then start mixing again.  The dough will be somewhat sticky.  I just ball and coat the ball, or balls with olive oil.  Put the dough balls, or balls into a plastic container or plastic bag, then proof for one or more day in the fridge.  The dough balls can be frozen, at least for me.  The dough ball can be opened cold, or let to warm-up for awhile after taking it out of the fridge.  Flour the dough ball, shape in the size of the pan, then let it at room temperature to proof in the pan.  I bake right on the pizza stone in the steel pan in my Bakerís Pride oven at about 525 degrees F.  You need to watch how the top cheeses are browning and when the sides start to look like they are getting a little dark, then take something and pull up the bottom  crust to see if it looks dark enough.  I had to play around with this a little.  The bottom crust browning took me a little while to get right.  The steel pan does help I think.  I also use either Corn Oil or Peanut Oil to oil the steel pans.  You can drop the hydration by a percent or two if you find the dough too sticky.

The Sicilian formulation does give a nice airy crumb. 

Good luck!  :)

Norma
Always working and looking for new information!

Offline miner_tom

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Re: Why did my dough not rise in the oven?
« Reply #15 on: June 27, 2012, 09:45:01 PM »

Tom,

I have tried different types of Sicilian pizzas on my journey with different formulations.  I found I really do not need oil in the formulations most of the time for Sicilian pies.  The oil in the steel pan does fry the bottom crust and I think that the crust is airier without oil.  The dough in a Sicilian pie is different than some other pizza doughs.  It is sandwiched between the cheeses and bottom oiling in the pan. 

My dough is either mixed in my Kitchen Aid mixer or my Hobart 20 qt. mixer with the paddle attachement first.  Then it is scrapped off the paddle attachment and then the dough hook is used to finish mixing the dough.  With either my Kitchen Aid or my Hobart the mix time is only about 6 minutes.  On my Kitchen Aid and Hobart I only mix on speed 1.  The dough might want to climb the hook, but I just stop the machine remove the dough from the hook, then start mixing again.  The dough will be somewhat sticky.  I just ball and coat the ball, or balls with olive oil.  Put the dough balls, or balls into a plastic container or plastic bag, then proof for one or more day in the fridge.  The dough balls can be frozen, at least for me.  The dough ball can be opened cold, or let to warm-up for awhile after taking it out of the fridge.  Flour the dough ball, shape in the size of the pan, then let it at room temperature to proof in the pan.  I bake right on the pizza stone in the steel pan in my Bakerís Pride oven at about 525 degrees F.  You need to watch how the top cheeses are browning and when the sides start to look like they are getting a little dark, then take something and pull up the bottom  crust to see if it looks dark enough.  I had to play around with this a little.  The bottom crust browning took me a little while to get right.  The steel pan does help I think.  I also use either Corn Oil or Peanut Oil to oil the steel pans.  You can drop the hydration by a percent or two if you find the dough too sticky.

The Sicilian formulation does give a nice airy crumb. 

Good luck!  :)

Norma

Norma, I can't thank you enough for your help. I will be trying this in a few days. I'll let you know how it turns out. I should not have been surprised that oil is not really needed for Sicilian Style because from what I have read, oil improves the stretchiness of the dough. If the pizza is cooked in a pan then there is no real need for stretchiness as far as I can see.

Best Regards
Tom

Offline dmcavanagh

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Re: Why did my dough not rise in the oven?
« Reply #16 on: June 27, 2012, 10:17:12 PM »
I may very well be in the minority on this, but I have found that I prefer my Sicilian dough to be made with all purpose flour rather than bread or higher gluten flour. The ap seems to give a softer dough which I enjoy much more then a tougher or chewier dough for this style. Experiment and find out which you prefer. I also do not use oil in my Sicilian dough, there's more than enough used to oil the pan.

Offline norma427

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Re: Why did my dough not rise in the oven?
« Reply #17 on: June 27, 2012, 10:42:29 PM »
Norma, I can't thank you enough for your help. I will be trying this in a few days. I'll let you know how it turns out. I should not have been surprised that oil is not really needed for Sicilian Style because from what I have read, oil improves the stretchiness of the dough. If the pizza is cooked in a pan then there is no real need for stretchiness as far as I can see.

Best Regards
Tom

Tom,

Thanks for posting that you will let us all know how your Sicilian pizza turns out.  If you need any other instructions or help, let me know.  The dough still stretches fine without oil.  If you think Neapolitan doughs, or some others, they also stretch fine without oil. 

As Dave just posted Sicilian pizzas can be made with AP also. 

Norma
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Offline miner_tom

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Re: Why did my dough not rise in the oven?
« Reply #18 on: July 02, 2012, 08:39:57 PM »
Tom,

Thanks for posting that you will let us all know how your Sicilian pizza turns out.  I

Norma

Norma,

My Sicilian Pizza dough was a great success!! I looked at your recipe from post #26(something) and realized that you had tried two kinds of dough, AP and Better for Bread. So, I decided to make two pies. I used AP for one and Better for Bread for the other.

I used the recommended amounts of sugar and yeast (IDY). Then I covered the dough balls with olive oil. I put them in sealed plastic bags and left them in the refrigerator for something like 14 hours.

After that, I took the dough balls out and left them, still in plastic (did not want them to start to dry out) on the counter top for 2 more hours. After that I oiled two pans and started to stretch the dough out. I never "abused" the dough and let it rest for a while in between stretches until it was the size of the pan. Then I let the dough proof for another hour or so.

Lots of "cooked" sauce and cheese was used as a topping.

I put the pans on a hot stone, at 525F, which had been in the oven for well over an hour.

The pies only took about 17 minutes to fully cook. After that they would have been over cooked.

The results were that the "Better for Bread" pie turned out exactly as desired. The crust was thick and airy, and the very bottom of the crust was firm and crunchy.

The pie with the AP flour did not rise as much and was not as thick and airy. I will run the experiment again at some time in order to see if I get the same results, but as of now, I am sold on the high gluten Better for Bread flour. Also, no oil was added to the dough, so there was nothing to interfere with hydration.

Thank you so much!!
Tom

Offline norma427

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Re: Why did my dough not rise in the oven?
« Reply #19 on: July 02, 2012, 10:19:05 PM »
Tom,

I am glad your Sicilian Pizza was a success.  :) It sounds good that you like Better for Bread flour and your crust was thick and airy, and the bottom crust was firm and crunchy.  I think that is also how I like my Sicilian pies.  My Sicilian pizzas take about 15 minutes to bake if I bake on the top deck, so your time for your bake of 17 minutes seems right. 

I am using GM Full Strength flour now for all of my Sicilian pies, which is a little lower in protein, but is bromated. 

Norma
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