Author Topic: Poolish Before or After?  (Read 651 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline Doughboy20

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 23
  • Location: Los Angeles
Poolish Before or After?
« on: August 20, 2016, 06:57:53 PM »
So I am trying to make a Neapolitan pizza dough with a poolish.  Question here for you experts.  I saw one recipe where the pooish once ready was mixed with water then incorporated into the rest of the flower.  I saw another recipe where a dough was made first with autolyse and then the poolish was added.

So I guess I have two questions.  Wouldn't blending the poolish with water basically destroy all the effects of the air bubbles? 

Secondly, if adding the poolish to an autolyse dough, before or after make a difference?

I guess what I am really trying to get at here is mixing two different age doughs as read here somewhere in the hopes that I get some real leapording during the cooking process assuming I fallow a 3 day fermenting process and other recommendations.

Offline TXCraig1

  • Supporting Member
  • *
  • Posts: 20114
  • Location: Houston, TX
    • Craig's Neapolitan Garage
Re: Poolish Before or After?
« Reply #1 on: August 21, 2016, 12:57:11 AM »
Given a 3-day (cold?) ferment, my suggestion would be: poolish --> add rest of ingredients and mix --> 2 days bulk --> 1 day balls. I wouldn't do an autolyse. I don't think it adds anything to pizza other than an excuse to drink a couple coldbeers.

Colder dough will leopard more but it will be harder to open. I'd suggest 2 hours of tempering the balls at room temp before making pizza.
"We make great pizza, with sourdough when we can, commercial yeast when we must, but always great pizza."  
Craig's Neapolitan Garage

Offline vtsteve

  • Supporting Member
  • *
  • Posts: 717
  • Location: Vermont, USA
Re: Poolish Before or After?
« Reply #2 on: August 21, 2016, 10:17:05 AM »
Wouldn't blending the poolish with water basically destroy all the effects of the air bubbles?

Poolish isn't about the bubbles; it's done for the flavor of the compounds (sugars, organic acids, etc.) that result from extended fermentation & enzyme action, while having enough 'new' flour in the mix for good dough structure.


Secondly, if adding the poolish to an autolyse dough, before or after make a difference?

A "true" autolyse is just flour and water, but if the preferment contains a large portion of the total formula water (as poolish often does), then you add the preferment (while holding back the salt and any additional yeast).

I agree that autolyse isn't worth the trouble for a pizza dough that will ferment more than a couple hours. Calvel promoted it as a way for French bread bakers (working with relatively weak flour) to avoid mixing their dough to death.
« Last Edit: August 21, 2016, 02:47:16 PM by vtsteve »
In grams we trust.

Offline Doughboy20

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 23
  • Location: Los Angeles
Re: Poolish Before or After?
« Reply #3 on: August 21, 2016, 11:32:22 PM »
Given a 3-day (cold?) ferment, my suggestion would be: poolish --> add rest of ingredients and mix --> 2 days bulk --> 1 day balls. I wouldn't do an autolyse. I don't think it adds anything to pizza other than an excuse to drink a couple coldbeers.

Colder dough will leopard more but it will be harder to open. I'd suggest 2 hours of tempering the balls at room temp before making pizza.

Colder dough leopards more? I thought longer room temp did this, is there an explanation why colder causes more leoparding?   Also is there a difference between a 2 day bulk 1 day ball vs a 1 day bulk and 2 day ball?

Thanks for your feedback on this.

Offline Doughboy20

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 23
  • Location: Los Angeles
Re: Poolish Before or After?
« Reply #4 on: August 21, 2016, 11:34:12 PM »
Poolish isn't about the bubbles; it's done for the flavor of the compounds (sugars, organic acids, etc.) that result from extended fermentation & enzyme action, while having enough 'new' flour in the mix for good dough structure.


A "true" autolyse is just flour and water, but if the preferment contains a large portion of the total formula water (as poolish often does), then you add the preferment (while holding back the salt and any additional yeast).

I agree that autolyse isn't worth the trouble for a pizza dough that will ferment more than a couple hours. Calvel promoted it as a way for French bread bakers (working with relatively weak flour) to avoid mixing their dough to death.

Thanks for the info, didnt know that.

Offline TXCraig1

  • Supporting Member
  • *
  • Posts: 20114
  • Location: Houston, TX
    • Craig's Neapolitan Garage
Re: Poolish Before or After?
« Reply #5 on: August 22, 2016, 08:55:45 AM »
Colder dough leopards more? I thought longer room temp did this, is there an explanation why colder causes more leoparding?

I'm sure there is but there is some disagreement on what it is. However, there isn't any disagreement I know of cold dough leopards more. It doesn't have to be cold all the way through either. Just 20-30 minutes in the freezer can make a noticeable difference.   

To be clear, I'm not suggesting this. I don't think it's a good thing to do if pizza quality is your goal. If you just want stark leoparding because it looks good, that one thing. If you want great pizza you should be doing things to make great pizza not stark leoparding. In my experience, the best Neapolitan pizzas don't have a lot of leoparding, and the leoparding they have is not the high contrast type - rather is a much more gentle spotting on even browning.

Quote
Also is there a difference between a 2 day bulk 1 day ball vs a 1 day bulk and 2 day ball?

Mostly in how easily the ball opens. THe longer in balls, the more relaxed the dough gets. 2 days in balls can be so relaxed that it hard to open without getting thin spots. However if you plan to use cold dough, 2 days in balls may be better to help offset the tightening effect the cold has.
"We make great pizza, with sourdough when we can, commercial yeast when we must, but always great pizza."  
Craig's Neapolitan Garage

Offline Jersey Pie Boy

  • Supporting Member
  • *
  • Posts: 2146
  • Location: New Jersey
Re: Poolish Before or After?
« Reply #6 on: August 30, 2016, 06:16:42 PM »
This leads right to something I was just wondering, though maybe Craig just answered it.


I've been using some 48 hour SD RT fermentation and been very pleased with results (thanks!) Sometimes though,  after the dough iis fermented, I've needed to store it in fridge one day, sometimes 2 before the bake.   So far, I've been doing 24 bulk/24 balls during RT.


If I  know the dough will get a fridge  rest, am I better off leaving it in bulk the whole RT time and and then straight to fridge still in bulk, finally  balling 12-24 hours before bake time?


Thanks

Offline PelletPizzaJoe

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 127
  • Location: southeastern Michigan
  • I Love Pizza!
Re: Poolish Before or After?
« Reply #7 on: September 09, 2016, 07:51:17 AM »
I have a question that I hope isn't too far off base for this thread, the question being.     Why poolish  or sponge at all, why not just do a long ferment with fully mixed dough then re-ball later? Aren't the two things actually doing something very similar?   

 The reason I ask is...  for me it seems much easier just to get the mixing bowl out once , then to have to do it twice.

Offline carl333

  • Supporting Member
  • *
  • Posts: 682
  • Location: Montreal
  • Always trying to improve my dough.
Re: Poolish Before or After?
« Reply #8 on: September 09, 2016, 08:08:13 AM »
Given a 3-day (cold?) ferment, my suggestion would be: poolish --> add rest of ingredients and mix --> 2 days bulk --> 1 day balls. I wouldn't do an autolyse. I don't think it adds anything to pizza other than an excuse to drink a couple coldbeers.

Colder dough will leopard more but it will be harder to open. I'd suggest 2 hours of tempering the balls at room temp before making pizza.

Craig et al,

I've seen recipes that suggest bulk ferments followed by balling after a particular time. I've never bulk fermented TBH. My final mixed dough goes into balls and placed in containers and straight into the fridge.

What differences can one expect with your suggested method vs. the one I described?
Carl

Online Pete-zza

  • Lifetime Member
  • Global Moderator
  • *
  • Posts: 25157
  • Location: Texas
  • Always learning
Re: Poolish Before or After?
« Reply #9 on: September 09, 2016, 08:14:37 AM »
I have a question that I hope isn't too far off base for this thread, the question being.     Why poolish  or sponge at all, why not just do a long ferment with fully mixed dough then re-ball later? Aren't the two things actually doing something very similar?   

 The reason I ask is...  for me it seems much easier just to get the mixing bowl out once , then to have to do it twice.
PelletPizzaJoe,

In the commercial bread making world, using preferments, and especially those that use commercial yeast, can shorten the dough preparation times and, therefore, the total preparation times. Typically, bakers have facilities where they store their preferments so that when the baker shows up at work in the morning, he or she only needs to do the final mix. In his book, The Taste of Bread, Professor Raymond Calvel has a chart on page 46 that demonstrates how preferments shorten bread preparation times, including bake times. For example, the stated time to make a bread, including bake time, using the straight dough method is 6 hours. For a bread using a poolish, the total time is 4 hours and 45 minutes. If the preferment is a natural sourdough preferment, the total time is 8 hours and 45 minutes. Professor Calvel has several other examples in his book.

Home pizza makers who use preferments often do so in very creative ways to achieve more flavorful pizza crusts. They do this by adjusting preferment quantity, yeast quantity, prefermentation temperature, and time. This can be a good alternative to cold fermented doughs, including shortening the total preparation times.

Peter

Offline carl333

  • Supporting Member
  • *
  • Posts: 682
  • Location: Montreal
  • Always trying to improve my dough.
Re: Poolish Before or After?
« Reply #10 on: September 10, 2016, 02:34:59 PM »
Craig et al,

I've seen recipes that suggest bulk ferments followed by balling after a particular time. I've never bulk fermented TBH. My final mixed dough goes into balls and placed in containers and straight into the fridge.

What differences can one expect with your suggested method vs. the one I described?

Any takers? Maybe I didn't ask it correctly.

example 1- after final mix, balled in individual size portions then into containers, CF, reballed 10 hrs prior to opening, back into fridge. 2 hr bench rest, then open.

example 2- after final mix, bulk CF, 10 hrs prior to opening, balled in individual containers, back in fridge. 2 hr bench rest, then open.

Any advantages, disadvantages in bulk ferment vs. the non bulk ferment or will the end results be the same? I can only think of the convenience of  tearing away what you need from the bulk as you need it but then again,  you can always remove any amount of individual containers as you need them.
Carl