Author Topic: Looking for an honest opinion of using a starter vs. IDY/ADY ...  (Read 1258 times)

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Offline TXCraig1

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Re: Looking for an honest opinion of using a starter vs. IDY/ADY ...
« Reply #40 on: August 01, 2014, 10:35:17 PM »
This is all new to me and I will be activating soon.

Please, if a backup can go 4-6 months without feeding...why would the one be bad/weak if neglected during 7 day vacation?
Thanks

Because one is kept at 35F and the other at 75F.
Pizza is not bread.


Offline Chicago Bob

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Re: Looking for an honest opinion of using a starter vs. IDY/ADY ...
« Reply #41 on: August 01, 2014, 10:39:28 PM »
Thank you.....why not keep the 75 at 35 too during the week away?
"Care Free Highway...let me slip away on you"

Offline jvp123

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Re: Looking for an honest opinion of using a starter vs. IDY/ADY ...
« Reply #42 on: August 02, 2014, 12:01:04 AM »
I was thinking I'd keep my starter only in my main fridge at about 40 degrees for use about once per week.  I guess I could keep my main starter in my wine fridge at around 65 degrees and my backup in my regular fridge at 40 degrees. 

Not sure I want to run my wine fridge higher than 65 though.
Jeff

Offline TXCraig1

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Re: Looking for an honest opinion of using a starter vs. IDY/ADY ...
« Reply #43 on: August 02, 2014, 09:29:12 AM »
Thank you.....why not keep the 75 at 35 too during the week away?

If all I did was make NP on the weekends and planned for it in advance, that would probably work just fine. However, I often use it on the spur of the moment for for other things. I like it always be reasonably active.
Pizza is not bread.

Offline Donjo911

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Re: Looking for an honest opinion of using a starter vs. IDY/ADY ...
« Reply #44 on: August 02, 2014, 12:57:48 PM »
I was thinking I'd keep my starter only in my main fridge at about 40 degrees for use about once per week.  I guess I could keep my main starter in my wine fridge at around 65 degrees and my backup in my regular fridge at 40 degrees. 

Not sure I want to run my wine fridge higher than 65 though.


Since it's summer just keep it on the counter.  When the home temp gets below 70* many members keep it in the oven. Especially if their oven will allow the interior light to remain on with the door closed. (If applicable it also alerts others in the home not to turn on the oven ).
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Offline Chicago Bob

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Re: Looking for an honest opinion of using a starter vs. IDY/ADY ...
« Reply #45 on: August 02, 2014, 02:06:14 PM »
Hi Craig,
What happens if I am unable to feed for a week or so due to travel?  Its not ideal I realize, but can I just pick up where I left off or do I need to pay a neighbor to feed my starter while I'm away ;)?
Jeff
Can you not just put it in the frig until you get back?
"Care Free Highway...let me slip away on you"

Offline jvp123

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Re: Looking for an honest opinion of using a starter vs. IDY/ADY ...
« Reply #46 on: August 02, 2014, 02:27:34 PM »

Since it's summer just keep it on the counter.  When the home temp gets below 70* many members keep it in the oven. Especially if their oven will allow the interior light to remain on with the door closed. (If applicable it also alerts others in the home not to turn on the oven ).

Don my home temp (I'm embarrassed to say since I don't keep my AC on all day) is very high in the summer.  Its over 110 degrees outside at times and my inside temp can be over 85 degrees .. isn't that too high to leave on the counter?

Can you not just put it in the frig until you get back?

Bob -I thought from some of my reading here that I'd split my Ischia into two jars - one I'll leave in my regular fridge at around 40 as my backup and one I'll try to keep either on the counter  per Don's recommendation (which could be 85 degrees in the summer) or in my wine fridge at around 65 degrees based on what I learn.

BTW, does anyone out there have a decent recipe they'd share to start the journey?  I started reading the Pizza Raquel thread and it seemed promising but was 38 pages long and I got a bit buried in it.

Below is a recipe I found from that thread.  I assume I would just insert 8% of my Ischia culture for where it says "preferment (Varasano)"?
 
Has anyone tried this one or have another recommendation?

Thanks so much,
Jeff
 
Here is the updated Pizza Raquel recipe:

                                                        Pizza Raquel - Everything You'd Want                                                    
             
 
Weight                                  Volume                                         Description                     Bakers Percent
16   oz/  456  Grams      3 1/3 cups                                   KASL High Gluten Flour                   100%     
9.6  oz/  273  Grams      1 1/8 cups or 9 fluid oz               Water                                                60%     
.01  oz/ .285  Grams         1/8 teaspoon (baker's pinch)   Instant Dry Yeast                         .0625%     
.32  oz/  9.1   Grams      2 1/4 teaspoon                           Sicilian Sea Salt (fine cut)                    2%
1.3  oz/  37    Grams      2  tablespoons (heaping)            Preferment (I use Varasano)              8% 
27.23oz/775.385 Grams

Produces two dough balls weighing 13 - 14oz (enough for two 15" - 16" pizzas). If you do not have a preferment simply add an extra 1/4 teaspoon of IDY.

Preparation Steps
1 - Stir water and salt with spoon/whisk until dissolved in stand mixer bowl.
2 - Add approximately half the flour first, then the yeast. Fit stand mixer with hook attachment.
3 - Mix 30 seconds on stir to incorporate yeast.
4 - Add preferment.
5 - Mix 1 minute on stir to incorporate preferment.
6 - 20 minute autolyse. DO NOT SKIP THIS STEP (or you will die painfully).
7 - Mix on stir speed for 5 minutes, adding in remaining flour gradually over the 5 minute mix.
8 - Mix on 2/3 for 5 minutes.
9 - Check dough temperature with digital thermometer; it should be 80 degrees at the hook.
10 15 minute autolyse. DO NOT SKIP THIS STEP (or you will die really painfully and slowly).
11 Remove dough from bowl and hand knead for 2 minutes on lightly floured prep area.
12 Cut into 2 equal pieces, form into balls, place dough into bowls, cover with shower caps.
13 Place dough in the refrigerator. Ferment for 24+ hours.
14 On the following day(s), remove dough from refrigerator and bring to room temperature. Note: Do not punch down, reform balls, or do anything to the dough other than let it warm to room temperature.

Stretching Steps  
1 - Place dough ball in flour bowl. Dust both sides well. Dust prep area with flour.
2 - Flatten ball into a thick pancake-like shape with palm of hand, ~ 2" thick. Keep well dusted.
3 - Press fingertips into center and working toward the rim until skin is 10 inches round. Keep well dusted.
4 - Place hands palm down inside rim and stretch outward while turning. Stretch to 12" round.
5 - Place skin over knuckles (1st time dough is lifted off bench) and stretch to 16"+/-
6 - Pat excess flour off skin. Place on floured peel and dress with favorite toppings.
7 - Peel dressed skin into preheated oven (1 hr+ at max temp) outfitted with tiles.
8 - Bake until lightly or heavily charred (more flavor).
« Last Edit: August 02, 2014, 02:29:24 PM by jvp123 »
Jeff

Offline TXCraig1

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Re: Looking for an honest opinion of using a starter vs. IDY/ADY ...
« Reply #47 on: August 02, 2014, 02:37:25 PM »
Can you not just put it in the frig until you get back?

Yes, I've done that before.
Pizza is not bread.

Offline TXCraig1

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Re: Looking for an honest opinion of using a starter vs. IDY/ADY ...
« Reply #48 on: August 02, 2014, 02:45:33 PM »
BTW, does anyone out there have a decent recipe they'd share to start the journey?  I started reading the Pizza Raquel thread and it seemed promising but was 38 pages long and I got a bit buried in it.

Below is a recipe I found from that thread.  I assume I would just insert 8% of my Ischia culture for where it says "preferment (Varasano)"?
 
Has anyone tried this one or have another recommendation?

I have all the respect in the world for Jeff Varasano and Pete Taylor - notwithstanding, IMO there is a time and a place for a formula that uses both baker's yeast and SD: never and in the trash, and this includes Raquel. If you don't trust your starter you should get a new one or don't use starter.
Pizza is not bread.

Offline jvp123

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Re: Looking for an honest opinion of using a starter vs. IDY/ADY ...
« Reply #49 on: August 02, 2014, 02:56:24 PM »
I have all the respect in the world for Jeff Varasano and Pete Taylor - notwithstanding, IMO there is a time and a place for a formula that uses both baker's yeast and SD: never and in the trash, and this includes Raquel. If you don't trust your starter you should get a new one or don't use starter.

Oh i see what you are referring to Craig.  I missed the fact that the Pizza Raquel recipe had IDY.  I DO want to trust my SD ... so would you recommend I just omit that part of the formula?  It IS only a "baker's pinch" but I know that can be a lot in IDY.
Jeff


Offline TXCraig1

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Re: Looking for an honest opinion of using a starter vs. IDY/ADY ...
« Reply #50 on: August 02, 2014, 03:07:18 PM »
Oh i see what you are referring to Craig.  I missed the fact that the Pizza Raquel recipe had IDY.  I DO want to trust my SD ... so would you recommend I just omit that part of the formula?  It IS only a "baker's pinch" but I know that can be a lot in IDY.

No, I would not recommend that formula/workflow, but that's just a reflection of how I think pizza should be made. Pete Taylor makes awesome pizza (http://www.wood-firedpizza.com/), so I would not fault you for trying it.

Things in it I don't agree with include:
- I don't think HG flour is a good choice for NP/Neo-NP/Neo-NY. I'd use KAAP over KASL (or KABF) for this style.
- Baker's yeast and SD
- 7% culture (way too much)
- Autolyse is not bad but it is unnecessary
- Refrigerated fermentation period, but especially with SD.
Pizza is not bread.

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Looking for an honest opinion of using a starter vs. IDY/ADY ...
« Reply #51 on: August 02, 2014, 03:30:55 PM »
To the best of my knowledge, Pete Taylor uses only a natural leavening system: http://www.wood-firedpizza.com/about.html. I often would speak with Peter whether he would be able to develop a chain of pizzerias that was based on using natural leavening systems. He has two locations but that has been the case for a few years now.

Peter

Offline Chicago Bob

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Re: Looking for an honest opinion of using a starter vs. IDY/ADY ...
« Reply #52 on: August 02, 2014, 03:54:12 PM »
[quote author=Pete-zza link=topic=33235.msg often would speak with Peter whether he would be able to develop a chain of pizzerias that was based on using natural leavening systems. He has two locations but that has been the case for a few years now.

Peter
[/quote]$10 for a cored tomato filled with pesto sauce....$16 for a 10in. pizza.....man, I am in the wrong business.   :-\
"Care Free Highway...let me slip away on you"

Offline jvp123

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Re: Looking for an honest opinion of using a starter vs. IDY/ADY ...
« Reply #53 on: August 02, 2014, 04:01:55 PM »
No, I would not recommend that formula/workflow, but that's just a reflection of how I think pizza should be made. Pete Taylor makes awesome pizza (http://www.wood-firedpizza.com/), so I would not fault you for trying it.

Things in it I don't agree with include:
- I don't think HG flour is a good choice for NP/Neo-NP/Neo-NY. I'd use KAAP over KASL (or KABF) for this style.
- Baker's yeast and SD
- 7% culture (way too much)
- Autolyse is not bad but it is unnecessary
- Refrigerated fermentation period, but especially with SD.

I said to myself .. I thought Craig did a 48 hour refrigerator fermentation so I went back to the "garage" and re read your method.  I realized you were very far from that.  Very far!  I also now understand the difference between "refrigerated" fermentation at the 35-40 degree level vs. 60-77 degree "room temp" fermentations as you use.  I never mentally processed the distinction in those temps but now I get it.  Seems obvious now - duh!  After devouring all the info on this forum sometimes the wires and methods can get mixed up.  :-\ 
I appreciate your input Craig and will incorporate accordingly as I create my method.
Jeff
Jeff

Offline TXCraig1

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Re: Looking for an honest opinion of using a starter vs. IDY/ADY ...
« Reply #54 on: August 02, 2014, 04:09:56 PM »
One or maybe 2 days a year my actual room temp is 64F.  :-D  That is my absolutely favorite time to make pizza.
Pizza is not bread.

Offline David Esq.

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Re: Looking for an honest opinion of using a starter vs. IDY/ADY ...
« Reply #55 on: October 15, 2014, 10:17:37 PM »
Sourdough is a super stable super difficult culture to kill once it is established.  Mine lives in the fridge, in a 1/2 pint mason jar, and it is fed every week or two.  If I scooped out the entire 30-40 grams leaving a residue on it, I could add a bit of water, wipe the sides with my finger to get the residue to cloud the water, feed it some flour and have a thriving culture by the end of the day.

When I want to bake, I can take 18-20 grams of it, feed it some water and flour in the morning, and that evening, I take the recently fed starter and add enough flour and water to make my levain, which is ready the following morning to be mixed with the dough.

The window is flexible enough so that I could use my levain 12 hours later or 24 hours later (if refrigerated) and get a great bread.

Been making pizza with yeast lately and have really enjoyed it. But I will be trying sourdough in the near future (I had some great success using the Tartine country loaf dough for pizza but want to branch out to get a good idea of what I like working with and eating best.


 

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