Author Topic: Want to build a gas fired deck oven. Any plans available and suggestions?  (Read 29969 times)

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Offline norma427

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Sqid,

Another article about New Park pizza oven.

http://pmq.com/mag/2004september_october/lastingimpressions.php

And what was said about the oven.

Chef Bruno carried me to this pizzeria in New Hyde Park. He said it was one of the pizzas he grew up eating and I now understand why he has such great taste in pizza. They built their own oven and when they open up the gas valve that feeds directly into the oven chamber, this baby really blows a flame. The oven cooks at almost the same temperature as some of the coal-fired ovens I have seen.

Norma

EDIT: For the Wayback Machine link for the above PMQ article, see http://web.archive.org/web/20080725074024/http://www.pmq.com/mag/2004september_october/lastingimpressions.php
« Last Edit: April 17, 2013, 09:36:24 PM by Pete-zza »
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scott123

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Somebody took pictures of the oven, maybe Chau or Kelly?

Gene, I stand corrected.  That's definitely a 100% homegrown oven.

Norma, thanks for the clarification.

Re; New Park's oven, I hate to say it, but I get the feeling that this homegrown oven is less of an advantage and more of a handicap.  It seems, from the paleness of the rims on the non well done pies and the propensity towards burnt undercrusts on the well done ones, I think it's pretty obvious that this oven has top/bottom heat ratio issues.

Still, I think it's a good point of reference to show that a gas deck oven can be built from scratch.
« Last Edit: July 07, 2012, 08:39:57 AM by scott123 »

Offline norma427

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Sqid,

If you are interested, I did post pictures inside and outside of my GP-61 Bakerís Pride Countertop oven and document for the oven at Reply 961 and the following posts. http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,9908.msg153745.html#msg153745  I purchased my deck oven used.

My deck oven must be insulated well, because I can put my hands of the sides and top of the oven when it is hot, except canít on the doors and the very front top of the oven.  

Norma
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Offline Sqid

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First to clarify a couple of points.

My oven doesn't use a pilot light it uses an electric spark.  When running the burner is either on full blast or off.  Apologies to Don.

Secondly, there is someone here with a multi ton press because there are homemade sinks available.  I assumed your question was for a brake  Sorry if I misled you and don't want you to consider relocating on my say so.  ;D

The oven available is:
Heng Wei - ELY 1370  $1800
2.5 ft x 3ft x 1ft
Uses .42Kg/hour of natural gas
Thermostats are calibrated to 300 and can be twisted past that point.  The booklet talks about a highest heat of 360C
That's it as far as availability of tech specs. :)
The door is hinged on the top folds into the oven so the actual entrance is only about 8".  Inside the highest point is about 14".

The oven I have is a Sinmag $2500
Roughly same dimensions but the door folds down.

I spoke to my sheet metal worker that made a sterling job of my stainless steel workbenches, made some steel peels for me, decorated the shop.  Presently he's building a 30' x 40' rc house for someone on a budget of about $30,000 lol.  He's fairly competant and fairly straight forward.  He seems to be on board on my terms ............ so my thinking is that if the Chinese can do it we can do it better - maybe - possibly.  ::)

    

buceriasdon

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Richard, I surmised your oven used an electronic spark ignitors for starting the burners, however there must a means for the burners to reignite once the thremo-sensor reaches a certain temperature and tells the control valve to shut off gas to the burner, either by a pilot light or by the spark/starter which I doubt is the case but it could be possible I suppose. Once the temp drops there must be some means for the burner to light again and the cycle to repeat.
Don

Offline Sqid

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Yep, I double checked it this morning, Don.  It reignites using the spark.
« Last Edit: July 07, 2012, 03:44:12 PM by Sqid »

Offline shuboyje

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Is the spark possibly always on?  Oil burners in oil fired furnaces use 10K volt transformers to generate a spark and ignite the oil.  The spark in these is always on.  It was something I couldn't get past in my training on them, seemed like such a waste, lol.
-Jeff

Offline Sqid

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No Jeff it just cackles to life when the temp drops enough.  Thanks for taking an interest.  Any ideas on how to construct a deck oven from scratch?

scott123

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I found some more information on the Heng Wei oven:

http://www.chinaypages.com/sampleroom/onesample/50645411/Gas_-_Electric_Oven.html

Quote
With overheating protection which automatically cuts off power supply when the temperature of oven exceeds 360įC

What's Chinese for 'go to hell'? ;D

Re; DIY oven.  Having a stainless guy at your disposal is definitely nice.  Before you even start thinking about steel fabrication, though, I think you should begin by looking for burners.  You should be looking for large (2' x 3') evenly heating burners in the 120K btu realm. A combination of gas grill burners might do the trick- such as 3 burners from a Weber Genesis. Ideally, you want a real oven burner, though, with a pilot light and safety features.

Re; modifications to your present oven. Have your stainless guy build you a solid platform to raise the floor 5 inches- basically a stainless box with a hole in the bottom to capture the heat rising from the burner. Make sure this elevation doesn't block any vents.

I've also been thinking of the seals.  A photo would help, but, in the mean time, are these rubber-ish?  You might be able to fashion a high temp seal out of rolled up fine steel wool.

Edit: This is the kind of gas grill burner I'm talking about.

http://www.sears.com/weber-gas-grill-stainless-steel-burner-tube-set/p-07142835000P?prdNo=6&blockNo=6&blockType=G6

You'd need to connecting hardware as well, of course (regulator, dials, etc.).

If these burners are in the 38K btu ream, x 3 = 114K.  That's not bad for a deck. Maybe you could run four.  152K is better.
« Last Edit: July 08, 2012, 11:03:52 AM by scott123 »


Offline Jet_deck

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I found some more information on the Heng Wei oven:


 ....    Ideally, you want a real oven burner, though, with a pilot light and safety features....


I would consider that a bare minimum. You cant sell pizza if your dead.
Her mind is Tiffany-twisted, she got the Mercedes bends

Offline shuboyje

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No Jeff it just cackles to life when the temp drops enough.  Thanks for taking an interest.  Any ideas on how to construct a deck oven from scratch?

What are you after with this oven?  What style of pizza and bake time do you want?

One thing I've been messing around with in my head lately is a oil fired pizza oven.  For a DIY'r it would be much safer then pumping gas into a enclosed chamber, and oil has a huge amount of heat to give.  If you have a local supply of used fryer oil you would also save a ton on energy costs.  Taconelli's In Philly uses what looks to be a coal oven converted to oil, so I doubt the oil fire would lead to excess soot or off flavors, and I bet they are running fuel oil, so WVO would be even better.  Plus your oven would smell like doughnuts, a big plus in my book. 
-Jeff

Offline Sqid

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Hi Scott.  I know the appropriate phrase in Burmese but not in Chinese.  I lived in China on and off for about 2 years back in '89/90 and they are a dodgy lot.  I wouldn't say I'm racist but ............. maybe I am racist :D.  Not to say that I didn't meet a load of great people there but if you're doing business then caveat emptor.  They don't take prisoners!

The oven I'm using atm is the Sinmag SM 803 T.  Think this is the one, didn't have any papers with it.  Probably a Chinese rip off. ::)

Couldn't open the sears link "access denied" for some reason.  But found some Weber grill sets (about $40?).  I was thinking to make that part but maybe I can get it sent to me.  Does it have to be stainless?  Don't you think it would be an advantage to have 2 sets?  One for the bottom and one for the top.  Also when you say "large(2'x3')", I'm assuming you meant 2' or 3'.

Jet - thanks for caring lol!
« Last Edit: July 08, 2012, 05:56:15 PM by Sqid »

Offline Sqid

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Hi Jeff
No supply of used oil.  They don't trash anything!  Sounds like an interesting idea but I'd rather go with a more conventional system.  Going to be enough variables as it is!

I bake a NY style pizza - about 5 mins.  Bit hotter would be better but I'm aiming at the mass market here and need to put a fair amount of toppings on.

The idea is to get an alternative to the sparse choice of ovens available here and to avoid the whims and fancies of greedy suppliers!

Offline shuboyje

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I think I've got a pretty decent handle on what it would take to make this work.  Before I go to far though do you have the skills to fabricate EVERYTHING you will need yourself?  Do you have sources for the materials and parts you are going to need second hand, scrap, surplus, or cheap for some other reason?  I ask because without those two things, you will never come out ahead financially against buying an oven.  The skilled labor and cost of specialty parts required would kill you financially.
-Jeff

Offline Sqid

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Have availability of cheap skilled labor if I can track it down!  Not specialist or certified but amazingly skilled.

Availability of parts - there's the rub - what do I need?  We can fabricate lots of stuff - lots of raw materials available - are they right for the job - yet to find out.  Regulators I can buy here.  If its something complex with a lot of small machined parts and it's available in Thailand, I can hand carry it in.  Despite having lived here for more that 15 years I still do a visa run every 3 months and am due to go in the next fortnight.

Let me worry about the finance (which I do every day ;D).  $2000 dollars can go a long way here if you have the right people and they are not charging 'foreigner' prices on everything!  I wasn't jokeing about the 30'x40', 2 story, reinforced concrete house for $30.000.  That includes labor and materials!
Couple that with the alternatives I've got and it's a viable proposition!

Please go far - I need you.....lots. :)   This is a fantastic resource for so much pizza related.  I wouldn't have opened my shop if I hadn't found this site.

scott123

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Couldn't open the sears link "access denied" for some reason.  But found some Weber grill sets (about $40?).  I was thinking to make that part but maybe I can get it sent to me.  Does it have to be stainless?  Don't you think it would be an advantage to have 2 sets?  One for the bottom and one for the top.  Also when you say "large(2'x3')", I'm assuming you meant 2' or 3'.

Yes, the weber grill burners are in the $40 realm.  When I talk about 2'x3', I'm talking about an array of burners extending 2 feet by 3 feet (actually 2 feet by 4 feet). For these weber grill burners, I'm suggesting four $40 sets in the bottom alone and plumbing them all together.  Plumbing them side by side will both give you even heating on the hearths as well as the necessary number of total btus (120K should be the minimum, imo)

As far as placing burners in the top of the oven, I would discourage that.  Having broiling burners is useful for evening out top/bottom heat, but it adds a layer of complexity that I don't think you'll want to deal with.  I've never seen a gas deck pizza oven with top burners.  With proper deflection, you get good top heat, and that top heat can be bolstered with a brick ceiling and a low vertical gap.

The most appealing aspect of gas grill burners is that, as long as you mirror the air flow/thermodynamics of a grill, the burners should be safe.

I've seen videos on making your own propane burners, and, at some point, I plan on taking this road, but in a professional environment (where lives are at sake), I wouldn't start making burners if you've never done it before.

Fabricate every aspect of the oven, but not the burner.
« Last Edit: July 10, 2012, 10:27:28 AM by scott123 »

Offline shuboyje

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I'd personally go the opposite route of Scott and put in top burners.  I've seen enough bottom burner only ovens struggle with top heat.  Getting the proper balance of heat with a bottom only burner would be the most difficult park of the build in my opinion.  I think the slight extra cost and complexity of plumbing in top burners would lead to a much easier design phase, and in the end a more versatile oven. 

My setup would be a brick hearth and ceiling, fully insulated.  Burners under the floor and under the ceiling.  Each set of burners would have it's own gas valve out of an old furnace with a standing pilot and a flame sensor for safety.  The gas valve for the lower burners would be controlled by a PID unit that has a thermocouple installed in the floor.  Set the floor temp on the PID and the burner would turn on and off to match it.  The top burners gas valve would be controlled by a simple manual on off switch electrically.  After the gas valve I would have a regulator to control the flow of gas to the upper burners manually.  Simply dial it in until the top cooks in the same time as the bottom.
-Jeff


Offline Sqid

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OK guys,  I'm getting the picture.  3 boxes: Heat sink,  Burner, Insulation.
I spoke with my handyman this morning to check out burners.  He confirmed what Scot and others have already told me:  said that reliability/safety is a problem, he could make them but they would cost a fortune and I had better by them from Thailand.  1st rough estimate $160

Regulators available here are cheap Chinese that always have probs - buy in Thailand.  Estimate $160

Thermostats _ same deal - buy in Thailand.  Estimate $250   Shuboyje, what is PID?

I'm tending to agree with Shubs.  I think the majority of the work will be in finding the stuff at a reasonable price and fitting it will be marginally more complicated.  WFO, top heat : traditional decks, bottom heat.  Both have their problems.  Why not get the best of both worlds and do both.   Assuming I went with 152 btu  and did a top and bottom burner.  What do you think the distribution should be re: top and bottom?

About the shell. Quick estimate was $600 for stainless 'boxes'.  $200 for kiln shelves because we would need to get them machined specially.  $160 for metal stand.

These estimates are really outer ball park ideas!  They bring me up to $2000 which would then overun due to 'extras'.  I was rather hoping to get is done for a lot less (maybe half :)) but it atkes what it takes and its still doable.  If you guys think some of these figures are out of the ballpark and in the next precinct then let me know.

I'm rather hoping I can find somewhere in Thailand that can sell me the whole works so that they are all rated to be compatible with each other.  If anyone knows of a supplier there or a good 'find it' man, please let me know.  I have to go there in about a week but I don't have to stay for more than a couple of days.

If I can't find the burners we would make out of copper here. Just sayin'.   But the regulators/ thermostats, we can't.

Thermocouples installed in the floor - I'm not there yet in my head - but I think I had better arrive there before I get to Thailand!

One last thing - no-one understand the concept of a pilot light in this country.  Every thing uses a magneto type spark to control temperature.  Is there anything inherently wrong with using this?  I'm hoping I can get a favorable answer here!

Thanks again for all your help.





« Last Edit: July 11, 2012, 01:51:45 AM by Sqid »

Offline rodinbangkok

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Don't think its worth making one, just pop over next door, there is a ton of used resto equipment in Thailand.  Suggest the following for new and they may have what your looking for used also.


Yaowarat area in Bangkok for specialty shops Gas supplies and regulators, also kitchen equipment.  All located in their own little areas so you have to ask for directions.

http://www.eton-standard.com/?catablog-terms=catablog-term-Oven

http://www.sevenfive.co.th/categories/Bakery/Pizza-oven/

Cheers

Offline Sqid

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Hi Rod  Thanks for putting that up.

Been there many times.  Its where I get my wooden peels from.  The majority of they're ovens and machinery is local made and at high Thai prices.  I will surely be going there this trip with my present project in mind but I'm doubtful I will find a burner set that I'm looking for.  Maybe get regulators and thermostats but they will spot me coming and I fear nothing will be a reasonable price.

Looking at the websites that you kindly provided links to and you can see easily that the rated power of the ovens is less than half of what I'm looking for.  75 company looks more interesting of the two but it's certainly not Yaowarat.  Maybe I will email them and see if they hold any burners.

Offline Sqid

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Shubs - Looking at your reply again. 

I would just like to clarify that you are suggesting that the top burner should be under the bricks as opposed to behind the bricks.

Also when you you say the thermocouple should be installed in the floor, how might one go about that and how thick should the floor be?   I have often wondered exactly where the thermocouples are placed on my existing oven.  Where do you think is the best position for them?

OK, I've googled PID and it looks great but I think my question about pilot lights puts that possibility on the back burner (pun)!  I don't want the ultimate oven, I want something better than I've got and that's been designed with pizza in mind.

Let me know your thoughts

Offline shuboyje

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OK guys,  I'm getting the picture.  3 boxes: Heat sink,  Burner, Insulation.
I spoke with my handyman this morning to check out burners.  He confirmed what Scot and others have already told me:  said that reliability/safety is a problem, he could make them but they would cost a fortune and I had better by them from Thailand.  1st rough estimate $160

Regulators available here are cheap Chinese that always have probs - buy in Thailand.  Estimate $160

Thermostats _ same deal - buy in Thailand.  Estimate $250   Shuboyje, what is PID?

I'm tending to agree with Shubs.  I think the majority of the work will be in finding the stuff at a reasonable price and fitting it will be marginally more complicated.  WFO, top heat : traditional decks, bottom heat.  Both have their problems.  Why not get the best of both worlds and do both.   Assuming I went with 152 btu  and did a top and bottom burner.  What do you think the distribution should be re: top and bottom?

About the shell. Quick estimate was $600 for stainless 'boxes'.  $200 for kiln shelves because we would need to get them machined specially.  $160 for metal stand.

These estimates are really outer ball park ideas!  They bring me up to $2000 which would then overun due to 'extras'.  I was rather hoping to get is done for a lot less (maybe half :)) but it atkes what it takes and its still doable.  If you guys think some of these figures are out of the ballpark and in the next precinct then let me know.

I'm rather hoping I can find somewhere in Thailand that can sell me the whole works so that they are all rated to be compatible with each other.  If anyone knows of a supplier there or a good 'find it' man, please let me know.  I have to go there in about a week but I don't have to stay for more than a couple of days.

If I can't find the burners we would make out of copper here. Just sayin'.   But the regulators/ thermostats, we can't.

Thermocouples installed in the floor - I'm not there yet in my head - but I think I had better arrive there before I get to Thailand!

One last thing - no-one understand the concept of a pilot light in this country.  Every thing uses a magneto type spark to control temperature.  Is there anything inherently wrong with using this?  I'm hoping I can get a favorable answer here!

Thanks again for all your help.


Not to come across as an ignorant American, but do you guys have furnaces there?  If I was undertaking this project here I would call a residential HVAC shop and get a couple old furnaces from them that they have recently replaced.  Odds are they wouldn't cost me a thing.  I would then strip the gas valves, transformers and the burners which I would use for my under the floor burners. 

The only regulator you need for my design would control the gas flow to the upper burners.  It would function just like the dial regulator that controls the burner on  ages grill, and you could probably use one from a gas grill.  Purchasing one would probably cost $20.

You also wouldn't need a thermostat, the PID and thermocouple would take it's place.  Pretty much all PID's are made in your area of the world.  Here I could buy the complete setup for under $50, I would bet you can get it cheaper.

Any metal that will be in contact with heat I would do stainless, for everything else I would use mild steel and paint it.  That should drastically reduce the price for both materials and fabrication since mild steel is so much easier to work with.   

If you cannot find burners I would not go the copper route.  I would instead read everything I can here and use a proven design:
http://www.alloyavenue.com/vb/forumdisplay.php?18-Burner-engineering

Spark ignition is fine, just more modern and expensive.  As I already said if I was doing this here I would be using scrap furnace parts and those would be coming from old furnaces that have been replaced with newer more efficient models.  The old furnaces would more then likely have a standing pilot.
-Jeff

buceriasdon

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Jeff, Like here it's a tropical climate, there is no need.
Don

Offline Sqid

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Hi Shubs.  I am top of the ignorance stakes when it comes to ovens, so please bear with me.  I am beginning to see that I have a very steep learning curve ahead if I'm going to do this properly.

What type of "furnace" are you referring to?   The only one I have a smattering of knowledge about (school :-[)  is one to refine iron ore?  Dumb question but please answer.

I can't see why an air conditioner would have a furnace - Ding dong - writing that, now I understand Buc's comment! 

I'm not completely closed to the idea of a PID but I presume that it needs a pilot light and that is something no one here has any experience with.  Electronic ignitions are plentiful here and something that I need to include in my costs.

Offline shuboyje

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What type of "furnace" are you referring to?   The only one I have a smattering of knowledge about (school :-[)  is one to refine iron ore?  Dumb question but please answer.
A household furnace.  The type that is used to heat a house in cool climates.

Quote
I'm not completely closed to the idea of a PID but I presume that it needs a pilot light and that is something no one here has any experience with.  Electronic ignitions are plentiful here and something that I need to include in my costs.
A PID can be made to control almost anything.  It simply puts out an electric signal that can be used to turn things on and off as needed to control temperature.  I have one controlling a refrigerator for instance at the moment to control the fermentation temperature of wine.
-Jeff