Author Topic: Want to build a gas fired deck oven. Any plans available and suggestions?  (Read 24249 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

scott123

  • Guest
Couldn't open the sears link "access denied" for some reason.  But found some Weber grill sets (about $40?).  I was thinking to make that part but maybe I can get it sent to me.  Does it have to be stainless?  Don't you think it would be an advantage to have 2 sets?  One for the bottom and one for the top.  Also when you say "large(2'x3')", I'm assuming you meant 2' or 3'.

Yes, the weber grill burners are in the $40 realm.  When I talk about 2'x3', I'm talking about an array of burners extending 2 feet by 3 feet (actually 2 feet by 4 feet). For these weber grill burners, I'm suggesting four $40 sets in the bottom alone and plumbing them all together.  Plumbing them side by side will both give you even heating on the hearths as well as the necessary number of total btus (120K should be the minimum, imo)

As far as placing burners in the top of the oven, I would discourage that.  Having broiling burners is useful for evening out top/bottom heat, but it adds a layer of complexity that I don't think you'll want to deal with.  I've never seen a gas deck pizza oven with top burners.  With proper deflection, you get good top heat, and that top heat can be bolstered with a brick ceiling and a low vertical gap.

The most appealing aspect of gas grill burners is that, as long as you mirror the air flow/thermodynamics of a grill, the burners should be safe.

I've seen videos on making your own propane burners, and, at some point, I plan on taking this road, but in a professional environment (where lives are at sake), I wouldn't start making burners if you've never done it before.

Fabricate every aspect of the oven, but not the burner.
« Last Edit: July 10, 2012, 10:27:28 AM by scott123 »


Offline shuboyje

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 1131
  • Location: Detroit
I'd personally go the opposite route of Scott and put in top burners.  I've seen enough bottom burner only ovens struggle with top heat.  Getting the proper balance of heat with a bottom only burner would be the most difficult park of the build in my opinion.  I think the slight extra cost and complexity of plumbing in top burners would lead to a much easier design phase, and in the end a more versatile oven. 

My setup would be a brick hearth and ceiling, fully insulated.  Burners under the floor and under the ceiling.  Each set of burners would have it's own gas valve out of an old furnace with a standing pilot and a flame sensor for safety.  The gas valve for the lower burners would be controlled by a PID unit that has a thermocouple installed in the floor.  Set the floor temp on the PID and the burner would turn on and off to match it.  The top burners gas valve would be controlled by a simple manual on off switch electrically.  After the gas valve I would have a regulator to control the flow of gas to the upper burners manually.  Simply dial it in until the top cooks in the same time as the bottom.
-Jeff

Offline Sqid

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 129
OK guys,  I'm getting the picture.  3 boxes: Heat sink,  Burner, Insulation.
I spoke with my handyman this morning to check out burners.  He confirmed what Scot and others have already told me:  said that reliability/safety is a problem, he could make them but they would cost a fortune and I had better by them from Thailand.  1st rough estimate $160

Regulators available here are cheap Chinese that always have probs - buy in Thailand.  Estimate $160

Thermostats _ same deal - buy in Thailand.  Estimate $250   Shuboyje, what is PID?

I'm tending to agree with Shubs.  I think the majority of the work will be in finding the stuff at a reasonable price and fitting it will be marginally more complicated.  WFO, top heat : traditional decks, bottom heat.  Both have their problems.  Why not get the best of both worlds and do both.   Assuming I went with 152 btu  and did a top and bottom burner.  What do you think the distribution should be re: top and bottom?

About the shell. Quick estimate was $600 for stainless 'boxes'.  $200 for kiln shelves because we would need to get them machined specially.  $160 for metal stand.

These estimates are really outer ball park ideas!  They bring me up to $2000 which would then overun due to 'extras'.  I was rather hoping to get is done for a lot less (maybe half :)) but it atkes what it takes and its still doable.  If you guys think some of these figures are out of the ballpark and in the next precinct then let me know.

I'm rather hoping I can find somewhere in Thailand that can sell me the whole works so that they are all rated to be compatible with each other.  If anyone knows of a supplier there or a good 'find it' man, please let me know.  I have to go there in about a week but I don't have to stay for more than a couple of days.

If I can't find the burners we would make out of copper here. Just sayin'.   But the regulators/ thermostats, we can't.

Thermocouples installed in the floor - I'm not there yet in my head - but I think I had better arrive there before I get to Thailand!

One last thing - no-one understand the concept of a pilot light in this country.  Every thing uses a magneto type spark to control temperature.  Is there anything inherently wrong with using this?  I'm hoping I can get a favorable answer here!

Thanks again for all your help.





« Last Edit: July 11, 2012, 01:51:45 AM by Sqid »

Offline rodinbangkok

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 8
Don't think its worth making one, just pop over next door, there is a ton of used resto equipment in Thailand.  Suggest the following for new and they may have what your looking for used also.


Yaowarat area in Bangkok for specialty shops Gas supplies and regulators, also kitchen equipment.  All located in their own little areas so you have to ask for directions.

http://www.eton-standard.com/?catablog-terms=catablog-term-Oven

http://www.sevenfive.co.th/categories/Bakery/Pizza-oven/

Cheers

Offline Sqid

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 129
Hi Rod  Thanks for putting that up.

Been there many times.  Its where I get my wooden peels from.  The majority of they're ovens and machinery is local made and at high Thai prices.  I will surely be going there this trip with my present project in mind but I'm doubtful I will find a burner set that I'm looking for.  Maybe get regulators and thermostats but they will spot me coming and I fear nothing will be a reasonable price.

Looking at the websites that you kindly provided links to and you can see easily that the rated power of the ovens is less than half of what I'm looking for.  75 company looks more interesting of the two but it's certainly not Yaowarat.  Maybe I will email them and see if they hold any burners.

Offline Sqid

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 129
Shubs - Looking at your reply again. 

I would just like to clarify that you are suggesting that the top burner should be under the bricks as opposed to behind the bricks.

Also when you you say the thermocouple should be installed in the floor, how might one go about that and how thick should the floor be?   I have often wondered exactly where the thermocouples are placed on my existing oven.  Where do you think is the best position for them?

OK, I've googled PID and it looks great but I think my question about pilot lights puts that possibility on the back burner (pun)!  I don't want the ultimate oven, I want something better than I've got and that's been designed with pizza in mind.

Let me know your thoughts

Offline shuboyje

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 1131
  • Location: Detroit
OK guys,  I'm getting the picture.  3 boxes: Heat sink,  Burner, Insulation.
I spoke with my handyman this morning to check out burners.  He confirmed what Scot and others have already told me:  said that reliability/safety is a problem, he could make them but they would cost a fortune and I had better by them from Thailand.  1st rough estimate $160

Regulators available here are cheap Chinese that always have probs - buy in Thailand.  Estimate $160

Thermostats _ same deal - buy in Thailand.  Estimate $250   Shuboyje, what is PID?

I'm tending to agree with Shubs.  I think the majority of the work will be in finding the stuff at a reasonable price and fitting it will be marginally more complicated.  WFO, top heat : traditional decks, bottom heat.  Both have their problems.  Why not get the best of both worlds and do both.   Assuming I went with 152 btu  and did a top and bottom burner.  What do you think the distribution should be re: top and bottom?

About the shell. Quick estimate was $600 for stainless 'boxes'.  $200 for kiln shelves because we would need to get them machined specially.  $160 for metal stand.

These estimates are really outer ball park ideas!  They bring me up to $2000 which would then overun due to 'extras'.  I was rather hoping to get is done for a lot less (maybe half :)) but it atkes what it takes and its still doable.  If you guys think some of these figures are out of the ballpark and in the next precinct then let me know.

I'm rather hoping I can find somewhere in Thailand that can sell me the whole works so that they are all rated to be compatible with each other.  If anyone knows of a supplier there or a good 'find it' man, please let me know.  I have to go there in about a week but I don't have to stay for more than a couple of days.

If I can't find the burners we would make out of copper here. Just sayin'.   But the regulators/ thermostats, we can't.

Thermocouples installed in the floor - I'm not there yet in my head - but I think I had better arrive there before I get to Thailand!

One last thing - no-one understand the concept of a pilot light in this country.  Every thing uses a magneto type spark to control temperature.  Is there anything inherently wrong with using this?  I'm hoping I can get a favorable answer here!

Thanks again for all your help.


Not to come across as an ignorant American, but do you guys have furnaces there?  If I was undertaking this project here I would call a residential HVAC shop and get a couple old furnaces from them that they have recently replaced.  Odds are they wouldn't cost me a thing.  I would then strip the gas valves, transformers and the burners which I would use for my under the floor burners. 

The only regulator you need for my design would control the gas flow to the upper burners.  It would function just like the dial regulator that controls the burner on  ages grill, and you could probably use one from a gas grill.  Purchasing one would probably cost $20.

You also wouldn't need a thermostat, the PID and thermocouple would take it's place.  Pretty much all PID's are made in your area of the world.  Here I could buy the complete setup for under $50, I would bet you can get it cheaper.

Any metal that will be in contact with heat I would do stainless, for everything else I would use mild steel and paint it.  That should drastically reduce the price for both materials and fabrication since mild steel is so much easier to work with.   

If you cannot find burners I would not go the copper route.  I would instead read everything I can here and use a proven design:
http://www.alloyavenue.com/vb/forumdisplay.php?18-Burner-engineering

Spark ignition is fine, just more modern and expensive.  As I already said if I was doing this here I would be using scrap furnace parts and those would be coming from old furnaces that have been replaced with newer more efficient models.  The old furnaces would more then likely have a standing pilot.
-Jeff

buceriasdon

  • Guest
Jeff, Like here it's a tropical climate, there is no need.
Don

Offline Sqid

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 129
Hi Shubs.  I am top of the ignorance stakes when it comes to ovens, so please bear with me.  I am beginning to see that I have a very steep learning curve ahead if I'm going to do this properly.

What type of "furnace" are you referring to?   The only one I have a smattering of knowledge about (school :-[)  is one to refine iron ore?  Dumb question but please answer.

I can't see why an air conditioner would have a furnace - Ding dong - writing that, now I understand Buc's comment! 

I'm not completely closed to the idea of a PID but I presume that it needs a pilot light and that is something no one here has any experience with.  Electronic ignitions are plentiful here and something that I need to include in my costs.

Offline shuboyje

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 1131
  • Location: Detroit
What type of "furnace" are you referring to?   The only one I have a smattering of knowledge about (school :-[)  is one to refine iron ore?  Dumb question but please answer.
A household furnace.  The type that is used to heat a house in cool climates.

Quote
I'm not completely closed to the idea of a PID but I presume that it needs a pilot light and that is something no one here has any experience with.  Electronic ignitions are plentiful here and something that I need to include in my costs.
A PID can be made to control almost anything.  It simply puts out an electric signal that can be used to turn things on and off as needed to control temperature.  I have one controlling a refrigerator for instance at the moment to control the fermentation temperature of wine.
-Jeff


Offline Sqid

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 129
So it wouldn't need a pilot light?   I was thinking that it would control the flow of gas rather than just turn it on and turn it off.

Offline rodinbangkok

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 8
Just a word of advice if you do this on your own make sure you have installed some sort of gas pilot control valve such as these:

http://www.google.com/search?client=safari&rls=en&q=gas+pilot+control+valve&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8#q=gas+pilot+control+valve&hl=en&client=safari&rls=en&prmd=imvns&source=univ&tbm=shop&tbo=u&sa=X&ei=JTn-T7ueEYisrAe58qjMBg&ved=0CHoQrQQ&bav=on.2,or.r_gc.r_pw.r_qf.,cf.osb&fp=9922d30629f567da&biw=1409&bih=833

This is the result of cobbling together a gas burner system with little or no experience.

This guy was very very lucky in many ways.

http://www.thesmokering.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=51291

Frankly from the questions being asked, I'd recommend you not do this on your own without someone onsite knowledgeable about gas ovens.

Offline Sqid

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 129
Hi Rod

Trying to find someone  "knowledgeable about gas ovens" but even if I do I don't think they will match up to the combined knowledge here.

Looking at your links now.

Offline rodinbangkok

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 8
Here is a detailed thread about using a gas burner, not for an oven in this case but instead for a smoker.  It uses a pilot type valve, this system should work up to the point of the burner the similarities end there. 

http://www.thesmokering.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=43117


Offline Sqid

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 129
Burns are bad.  Ouch!

I will be needing a gas valve.  Not sure which one or how many yet.

That looks like a great link if I decide to go the pilot light route.  I've bookmarked it for later reference.  Thanks.

Offline Chicago Bob

  • Lifetime Member
  • *
  • Posts: 10805
  • Location: North Carolina
  • Easy peazzy
So it wouldn't need a pilot light?   I was thinking that it would control the flow of gas rather than just turn it on and turn it off.
It can do both functions....
"Care Free Highway...let me slip away on you"

Offline Sqid

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 129
Hi Bob.  Needed that nudge.  Took a slightly closer look at PIDs and with my new found knowledge they now seem the logical choice.   Is there any reason why someone thinks that a conventional thermostat is better?

Scott - You first suggested using a top heat with the Dago.  Also the weber burners seem to be ideal if I can find a supplier.  The bbq places I've googled in Thailand all charge more than double the US prices and still have no replies if they carry replacement burners.  They all want to sell the bbq set.  If they do sell the burner sets separately then  I'm looking at about $100 per set.  120,000 btus about $400. 

You said yourself that a brick ceiling is no substitute for a burner on the top.  I found some old scribbled notes that showed the power of my Sinmag.   It's either 34,000 or maximum of 40,000 btus.   I'm not aiming at a Neopolitan style so I'm thinking that 120,000 would be enough of a change and it seems that most NY deck oven places are happy with this.  I'm getting some very good results with my present oven even though it has such low power.  I think that one of the reasons is that the top heater always comes on when I open the door thus providing the radiant heat from the top.

With this in mind and considering 120,000 total, what do you think would be the best distribution for upper and lower heat sources.

Yet to track down suitable suppliers in Thailand.  I now realize why Buc and others were so insistent that I find some burners first.  More googling!

Offline Jet_deck

  • Supporting Member
  • *
  • Posts: 3043
  • Location: Between Houston and Mexico
Although i am a DIY'er and know this thing can be done...  But in a commercial setting?  I still think tweaking an existing oven would be so much more safe and sane.
My .02
Her mind is Tiffany-twisted, she got the Mercedes bends

Offline Sqid

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 129
Hi Jet

May be a bit crazy ;D but I'd like to give it a try.

Do you know of any commercial decks that use a top heater as well as a bottom?

Offline Jet_deck

  • Supporting Member
  • *
  • Posts: 3043
  • Location: Between Houston and Mexico
No, sorry I dont.  What about adding a brick deck to a restraunt broiler?  Aren't they called salamanders?
Her mind is Tiffany-twisted, she got the Mercedes bends