Author Topic: Want to build a gas fired deck oven. Any plans available and suggestions?  (Read 25219 times)

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Offline glennb6

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Re: Want to build a gas fired deck oven. Any plans available and suggestions?
« Reply #200 on: September 10, 2012, 08:57:01 PM »
sqid,

I just joined this forum and Don suggested I check this thread as I'm in NE Tland along the Mekong. Budddy, my hats off to you for your efforts and successes in Burma! If it's anything like the little one stoplight town I'm in it takes a world of patience to get even the simplest things accomplished.
I decided to start a small pizza shop here, I'm a 100% newbie but that may not be a 100% problem as what Tesco Lotus calls pizza (5" round cooked doughy base, questionable sliced hot dogs, corn, zero tomato sauce, some gooey stuff, all wrapped in plastic and sitting next to the thai desserts) is really not, and that's all the locals know. Also this forum and you-tube are fantastic learning tools.
Will be attempting to fashion a very small mobile oven for a food cart along the lines of a LBE, only a rectangle... I feel your pain.

glennb6


Offline Sqid

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Re: Want to build a gas fired deck oven. Any plans available and suggestions?
« Reply #201 on: September 10, 2012, 10:07:51 PM »
Hey Glen

Ha!  Sometimes getting the simplest things done feel like monumental achievements!  I think it's a 'Buddhist country conspiracy' to make us come to terms with the futility of desire :-D.

Good to hear you opening in Thailand.  I fear 'plastic wrapped crap' comes at a premium in these places - for them it represents progress and living in the fast lane!  I had umpteen locals complain to me about my pizzas being burnt and even yesterday my oven guy suggested I have a look at the new supermarket that has opened to get an idea of what a really good pizza should look like! ???    Hope there are some other expats around and then you'll do fine as well as getting profusely thanked by die hard pizza fanatics.

Richard

Offline glennb6

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Re: Want to build a gas fired deck oven. Any plans available and suggestions?
« Reply #202 on: September 11, 2012, 08:52:41 PM »
sqid

yes, I need to remember the futility of desire after driving to the big town 2 hrs away and trying to convey "fire brick" and "pizza stone" in the thai language to half a dozen various local shopkeepers realizing full well they think I'm a martian asking for a zoogleknapazoinker in a very bad american accent. :)  If it weren't for an insanely beautiful 20 something girl in HomeProMart who did understand with ear to ear smiles and tried to help, I'd have a bad attitude.

I am well expecting to be asked for mayo, sliced hot dogs, and corn toppings as well as lots of pineapple, and being compared with the local abortions. Frankly, this little adventure is strictly a business endeavor so if they want dog, it's dog they shall get. As for my dinner, I'll do it right.

Have you found anywhere in thailand that has pizza stones???

Offline Sqid

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Re: Want to build a gas fired deck oven. Any plans available and suggestions?
« Reply #203 on: September 12, 2012, 10:11:14 AM »
I didn't find a pizza stone in Bkk but I wasn't particularly looking for one either.  There's a chap on this forum who lives in Bangkok who might have some ideas.  What sort of oven are you using?

Even if you said "zoogleknapazoinker"  in perfect Thai they commonly still assume you're speaking something unintelligible!  Cute girls always help! 

buceriasdon

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Re: Want to build a gas fired deck oven. Any plans available and suggestions?
« Reply #204 on: September 12, 2012, 12:11:21 PM »
Glenn, You might contact a ceramic supply such as:  http://www.amarinceramics.com/html/specialsupply.html
although they do not list kiln shelves on their website, I would quite surprised if they didn't carry them. Not optimum but large unglazed ceramic floor tile might be available there.

Offline glennb6

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Re: Want to build a gas fired deck oven. Any plans available and suggestions?
« Reply #205 on: September 13, 2012, 04:55:04 AM »
Buc,  thanks for the lead. Bkk is a 9+hr trek so I'll hit that at a later time.

Sqid, what sort of oven? Well I've got a local made one on order through a mfgr/fab shop in Udon Thani, will be smallish 5 burner gas. They're supposedly going to provide a stone of some sort for the lower rack and the rep wasn't exactly sure how hot the oven gets, except for it's "plenty hot enough". Cost will be $500US (converted from Baht). My supposition is that it will get up to the high 500s Fahrenheit as he said that's how hot the temp gauge gets and not too hot to blow up whatever flat rock or stone they are supposed to provide. Not exactly optimum but TIT and if other shops in other cities are using same successfully, so I see no reason to try spending $5000US+ on a real and imported oven, especially as I don't even know if pizza will sell in my Podunk little town.

Then I found info on the LBE project on this site and spent a couple days reading and watching videos on it and decided I will attempt to reproduce something similar with what's available here. Two days ago on a shopping excursion to the bigger local town, I saw GlobalHouse has a LBE on display for $30US (converted). Now there's no indication as to country of its origin so that means Thailand/China/Cambodia or similar, versus a quality product. I bought it. I located 7x7cm terracotta tiles and crossed my fingers with little red bricks, bought a dangerous looking burner and whipped out my angle grinder.
The shell steel is quite thin and light, and now that I've had it burning for a while, well, as of yet it's not a pile of molten metal nor has it gone boom or kaboom (yet) however the lower grate on which the deflector red bricks sit glows bright red in the propane flames. Will burn a number of times until the odd baked paint or metal smell dissipates.

I originally thought that I'd use the LBE on a mobile food cart to warm pre-cooked pies from the other oven but after learning about it, if I can make and bake small pies in the 3 minute range, then I'll cook them on the spot too. If after a couple of months this is still working and people are buying, then I'll open a small shop in town and probably duplicate the food cart too.
Chok dee to me

glennb6




Offline Sqid

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Re: Want to build a gas fired deck oven. Any plans available and suggestions?
« Reply #206 on: September 13, 2012, 10:00:59 PM »
Glenn - "plenty hot enough".   Lucky you that you met up with that technical expert ;D

It sounds like the type I saw in Bangkok.   I expect that you will have to light and regulate each burner separately. Considering the trouble I'm having getting a control system, it's beginning to seem like the only sane route to take!!  I expect he will provide a usable stone, maybe tile, maybe manufactured.   From what I could see these ovens could do with some thermal mass not only on the bottom but on the top and back - maybe sides (don't know if the heat for the top is coming from the sides).   They could also do with some insulation - 2" good, 4" better, the ones I looked at didn't have any!   Depending on how long ago you ordered it, it might be worth while talking to the chap.   I presume it doesn't have any burners on the ceiling which I think will lead to trouble browning the cornicione.  When did he say it would be ready............and when are you expecting it!

No indication of country of origin probably means China.  Products from Thailand are held in high esteem here and command a premium.  Should be about ready to post some pics of your pizza by now?   Haven'tt really delved into the LBE in great depth but it sounds like it can make great pies.   Kan Kaung Ba Zay to you.



On to my project:

I've bought the 9x9" bricks for the hearth and for the back.   The sample I got was a particularly good one,  the ones I bought are a little more worn, rounded and chipped edges.   Anyway I spent a couple of hours making them go through the whole pile and think I've got serviceable ones!

I've done some more enquiring and I think that a 3mm mild steel plate to support the hearth might have warpage troubles.  I'm now thinking that it would be better to support them using a 3mm steel frame.  A burner guy here, thinks that shouldn't have problems because the heat will dissipate more rapidly.

I also think that I shall not include firebricks on the sides.  I shall leave a 2" gap there for heat flow and if I decide to add a top burner later I can fill the gap with bricks.

120,000 Btus is only used for top of the range ovens, it will increase my gas bill, also if I add a top burner later, it may be too much.........so I'm thinking of using 80,000 to 100,000 to start.  Can always increase the Btus later by increasing the port and orifice sizes.




« Last Edit: September 13, 2012, 10:05:07 PM by Sqid »

Offline Chicago Bob

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Re: Want to build a gas fired deck oven. Any plans available and suggestions?
« Reply #207 on: September 13, 2012, 11:02:48 PM »
I have a feeling that someone may end up with a nice oven here...someday....
"Care Free Highway...let me slip away on you"

scott123

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Re: Want to build a gas fired deck oven. Any plans available and suggestions?
« Reply #208 on: September 14, 2012, 07:59:57 AM »
120,000 Btus is only used for top of the range ovens, it will increase my gas bill, also if I add a top burner later, it may be too much.........so I'm thinking of using 80,000 to 100,000 to start.  Can always increase the Btus later by increasing the port and orifice sizes.

Richard, it really depends on how much surface area your hearth would have, but if you shortchange the BTUs too much, you will jeopardize your short bake times.

Btw, I've been thinking about deflection a bit, and, while aluminum could anneal/do strange things that close to the burner, copper would transfer the heat beautifully.

Also, I can't tell, you are still using steel plate for deflection, right?

Offline Sqid

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Re: Want to build a gas fired deck oven. Any plans available and suggestions?
« Reply #209 on: September 14, 2012, 12:27:27 PM »
Everything moves at a snails pace here, part of my imposed Zen training program.  :-D  Hope you're right about the outcome :)

My hearth isn't going to be enormous by any means Scott, especially with only 27" depth.  I haven't even looked at what manufacturers are offering in Btus per sq ft but will check.   Been searching the internet high and low to find out what size ports I should be using with what spacing.  I think its going to be about .5 sq mm aperture per inch of burner if I'm using about 12' in total. :-\  

My thinking (sketchily) is that for 120,000 Btus/hour, 2000 Btus/min, I will need to burn about 1 cu ft of propane (2520 Btus).   Therefore the jet orifice size for a 0.5 psi pressure would be about 3mm.   Including an adequate amount of air (about 25 cu ft per ft of propane I will have 26 cu ft coming out of the ports per minute.
Here I'm not sure but I'm sort of assuming that the pressure in the burner will be the same as the propane pressure. So for the ports, where the mixed gas will be coming out, I need 26x as much area as the jet orifice, .  ie 26x3=78mm over the entire run of the burner (12')
So 78/144 = .54 sq mm per inch of burner length.
Two ports be inch would be about 0.3mm diameter per hole.
If any one can follow what I've written and has any suggestions please let me know!!

I was thinking to use a steel plate under the hearth which would suppot the firebricks, act as a deflector and provide some thermal mass.   I spoke to another chap recently and he thought that with flames directly onto 3mm mild steel that it would still warp.  Frankly with the weight of the bricks on it I don'y know how much of an issue that would be.  However I don't really need a steel plate considering I will be using 2" bricks.  It was also suggested that 3mm mild steel checkered frame would warp less because the heat would dissapate more quickly.   I'm sort of ready to make the frame for the bricks but I want to wait until I have the burner designed first so I can see where the flames will be.   I don't think that the bricks would suffer if I had the flame directly on it but maybe I will design the frame to take the first brunt of the heat.   What do you think?   Not to worried about even heating at this point because I plan to have part of the burner under each brick.

I have also considered copper and thicker aluminium.   There is a company that makes solid aluminium ovens, apparently they make a gift to the Whitehouse each time there is a new president.
« Last Edit: September 14, 2012, 12:33:27 PM by Sqid »


Offline Sqid

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Re: Want to build a gas fired deck oven. Any plans available and suggestions?
« Reply #210 on: September 15, 2012, 10:54:54 PM »
Richard, it really depends on how much surface area your hearth would have, but if you shortchange the BTUs too much, you will jeopardize your short bake times.


Been thinking about this.  So obvious.   Very fundamental.   But something that I had just not considered!  Duh?   Thanks for the reminder - its good to get your thoughts on paper, so to speak.

Therefore at 80,000 Btus I would be getting 55 Btu/inch which is well up there with Marsal and BP.   

Offline glennb6

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Re: Want to build a gas fired deck oven. Any plans available and suggestions?
« Reply #211 on: September 18, 2012, 08:01:57 AM »
sqid,

I've been meaning to ask, eh, where in Burma do you live and how the %^&(* do the Burmese afford to eat, or understand pizza!?

glennb6

Offline Sqid

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Re: Want to build a gas fired deck oven. Any plans available and suggestions?
« Reply #212 on: September 19, 2012, 09:17:28 AM »
Hi Glenn - I'm in the capital, Yangon.

how the %^&(* do the Burmese afford to eat, or understand pizza!?

Very good question.  The locals are not 'pizza savy'.   Some of the more affluent may have been to The Pizza Company or Pizza Hut when in Thailand but there are very few that appreciate what we call good pizza.   Also the price is well above what the vast majority pay for dinner.  It's not a big market!!  Having said that we do have some regular Burmese customers.  When I opened we got a few complaints about the pizza being burnt so we dumbed down the charring to make it look more like a mass produced piece of @#@t.  Thankfully I got a complaint from an expat that put me straight!

Now I only serve what I want to eat and feel like a missionary :angel: ;D  Most of our customers are foreigners and if this country truly opens to investment I should be in a good place.

How's your oven coming along?

Offline glennb6

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Re: Want to build a gas fired deck oven. Any plans available and suggestions?
« Reply #213 on: September 20, 2012, 03:29:46 AM »
sqid,

Oven was delayed a week from mfgr, supposedly can pick it up Saturday. Thereafter I should be baking my heart out and practicing all the tips and different styles I found on this forum. I have made a LBE which looks like it should work, but having a darn time finding a round ceramic tile as the small square ones seem to sag the metal grade slightly.
Still looking for a peel but think I found one or two overpriced thai websites to order from. Ordered the overpriced food cart which is supposed to be ready by end of month.
Some of the locals say positive things about 'falang' pizza and mention that the ketchup+mayo+wonderbread+sliced hotdog pizza (ahem) from Tesco tastes like %$#. Perhaps there's hope for them ;)

Burma (Pama as the locals pronounce it and sneer) sounds quite interesting and I certainly hope they decide to open up to free markets and personal freedoms. They don't have anywhere to go but up so it would seem from reading the news. Some day a fun conversation over a beer.

glennb6

Offline Sqid

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Re: Want to build a gas fired deck oven. Any plans available and suggestions?
« Reply #214 on: September 22, 2012, 12:59:57 PM »
sqid,

Oven was delayed a week from mfgr, supposedly can pick it up Saturday. Thereafter I should be baking my heart out and practicing all the tips and different styles I found on this forum. I have made a LBE which looks like it should work, but having a darn time finding a round ceramic tile as the small square ones seem to sag the metal grade slightly.
Still looking for a peel but think I found one or two overpriced thai websites to order from. Ordered the overpriced food cart which is supposed to be ready by end of month.
Some of the locals say positive things about 'falang' pizza and mention that the ketchup+mayo+wonderbread+sliced hotdog pizza (ahem) from Tesco tastes like %$#. Perhaps there's hope for them ;)

Burma (Pama as the locals pronounce it and sneer) sounds quite interesting and I certainly hope they decide to open up to free markets and personal freedoms. They don't have anywhere to go but up so it would seem from reading the news. Some day a fun conversation over a beer.

glennb6


You can get the peels easily enough in Bangkok if you get down there.  I recommend a wooden one for putting it in and use the metal one to pull it out.  Had the occasional sticking disaster when I was using the same peel for both jobs.

Good news that you've got at least one local on your side and did the oven arrive today? 

Possibly great time to open a business here but the man on the street hasn't seen any benefits yet.  Also don't know if having a Starbucks or worse Pizza Hut on every corner is progress.  Several beers worth of stuff to say about that!

Offline glennb6

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Re: Want to build a gas fired deck oven. Any plans available and suggestions?
« Reply #215 on: September 25, 2012, 04:28:21 AM »
Sqid,

thanks for input on wood and metal peels.
Got the oven and burned it in until it stopped smoking. The guy gave me 3 large pieces of sandstone as a stone floor on the grate, my judgement is still out on that one. It seems to work, light all seven burner tubes it by hand and although it has a thermostat that seems to peg at perhaps 650ish f, it's basically on or off on each of the burner tube valves to regulate the heat. I suppose "on" will be how I'll run it.
I had a piece of granite cut for the LBE, that lasted a day and a half before cracking, but will use until or unless I can get the real thing. It does function well though.

Made my first doughs 48 hrs ago pretty much according to one of the zillions of recipes on this site. The balls puffed up more than I had expected and rather blended in the fermenting trays in the refer. Yesterday tried forming and cooking. Why don't they balls form out to nice circular thin shells ???^()_*_(!@#@! Made four amoeba shaped shells that cooked up far too thick for my liking. The dough tasted ok but too thick. Later in the day the other tray of dough balls... something went wrong as they were deflated, sticky wet almost gooey. Figured to salvage some and try flattening enough to make wraps of them and baking. VERY elastic and would refused to stay stretched out.
Trying other dough making today and a 2 hr quickie dough. That stretched better but not round or uniform. I'll figure out why and try alternates, no sense in detailing amts, temps, hydration, etc as just too many variables for a newbie setup. Just do again and again and I'll get it right. Also have some hoggie rolls on deck this evening.

Fun

Any tips?

glennb6

buceriasdon

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Re: Want to build a gas fired deck oven. Any plans available and suggestions?
« Reply #216 on: September 25, 2012, 11:19:30 AM »
Glenn, Please, rather than go off topic and hijack this thread start a new thread in Newbie or General concerning your dough questions. Also, you say " That stretched better but not round or uniform. I'll figure out why and try alternates, no sense in detailing amts, temps, hydration, etc as just too many variables for a newbie setup. Just do again and again and I'll get it right. Also have some hoggie rolls on deck this evening."
Any tips?
Yes, What is the sense of us trying to quess what your problems are when you won't give us specifics? What, we have play twenty questions as we don't have anything better to do??


Offline Sqid

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Re: Want to build a gas fired deck oven. Any plans available and suggestions?
« Reply #217 on: September 25, 2012, 12:26:10 PM »
Glad to hear the oven has arrived.  It'll be interesting to find out how they compare when you've had a bit of time with both.

Sandstone sounds fine but I have been warned about using granite or marble because it could release the heat stress by exploding :o  I've been using marble in my present set up and it has also cracked.  Guess we can consider ourselves lucky that it took that route to relieve the stress :-\.   

It could take a long time to figure out 'good dough' by trial and error because there are so many variables.   I can tell you that your first batch fermented too quickly but I also kind of agree with Don and think it's best to keep this thread oven orientated.

Does your oven have any means of regulating the amount of heat that gets into the chamber. baffles or dampers that you can adjust?

Offline glennb6

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Re: Want to build a gas fired deck oven. Any plans available and suggestions?
« Reply #218 on: September 30, 2012, 05:24:03 AM »
Sqid,

I've been using the LBE more than the oven first because the exterior paint on the oven gets soft when fired up full and I could peel it with my fingernail, and I'm thinking I should be incorporating an LBE into the food cart and cooking on the spot. That may be better than trying to deliver cooked pies and heating/warming them on the food cart. If I can get the dough right then I could make enough doughballs at home and deliver a dozen or few dozen whatever in a cooler. Possibly pre-formed shells but will play with the options to see what works best.
The granite piece I had cut as a stone has cracked within 2 days, meh.
Working on the dough and trying to get that right

Glenn

Offline glennb6

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Re: Want to build a gas fired deck oven. Any plans available and suggestions?
« Reply #219 on: October 08, 2012, 06:54:59 AM »
reply to self:

After a few arguments with the LBE after a few slightly charred spots and being unable to convince the local test subjects that even slight browning is fully legit on the bottom, I hear they said burnt in Thai to my wife. She pestered me about same so I relented to try a softer crust.
I got an round aluminum baking tray, dusted well with flour and layed out the pie in it. It was placed on the new tile piece on the LBE and I let it crank. FYI, I bought a smooth white ceramic tile, cut it to shape and have tried to get it to emit harmful stuff under heat. So far it's holding up fine and gives me no worries whatsoever. As for the pie cooked in the round tray on in the LBE, amazingly good. No burning or charring on the bottom, crust was not leoparded on top but had puffed up well and had a distinct light crunch. Inside was tender and soft with plenty of void. Bacon and mozzarella.
The test subjects all gave big thumbs up and I am extremely pleased.

So, baking tray on pizza stone or tile in the LBE is a 100% go!

Food cart is supposed to be finished in a couple days and I look forward to seeing how the indigenous heathens react to real pizza for money.

glennb6


 

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