Author Topic: ALFA Pizza Oven and Other Lower Budget WFOs  (Read 38695 times)

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Offline pizzaneer

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Re: ALFA Pizza Oven and Other Lower Budget WFOs
« Reply #25 on: July 08, 2012, 07:53:59 AM »
I don't understand your confusion.  You've been coached until you know the correct parameters for a NP WFO oven.  Now find those parameters in a ready-built oven within your budget.  If you can't find anything in that price range, then you have two choices:  increase your budget or build your own.   Don't expect anyone to do your shopping or decision-making for you.

I'd rather eat one good meal a day than 3 squares of garbage.


Offline italdream

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Re: ALFA Pizza Oven and Other Lower Budget WFOs
« Reply #26 on: July 08, 2012, 08:19:36 AM »
Pizzaneer, thank you for your reply. I certainly don't expect you to do my shopping or decision-making. I just wanted to make sure that I got all the proper options, none missing, re: ovens in my budget. Also, regrouping the various possibilities in my previous post would (hopefully) serve as well other people in my same budget category.

Separately, your first reply on this topic comes out along the lines of "do not waste my time". To be honest, If I am wasting your time, you are just as much wasting mine. Thank you again to all the other people who kindly helped me (and the discussion) thus far.
« Last Edit: July 08, 2012, 09:19:59 AM by italdream »

scott123

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Re: ALFA Pizza Oven and Other Lower Budget WFOs
« Reply #27 on: July 08, 2012, 09:23:35 AM »
Italdream, I recently acquired a few reservations about the FGM, but, imo, they pale in comparison to my reservations regarding the Piccolo, Primavera and the Andiamo.  Out of the three, I think the Andiamo has a slight edge, but they all have huge ceilings, huge doors and cramped dimensions.  At least with the FGM, even the smallest kit, you're not getting the huge ceiling, and if you go with the 800, it won't be that cramped either.

One important thing to keep in mind- there's not a member on this forum who went with a smaller oven who was later content with their decision.

If you absolutely have to pull the trigger on an oven now, I'd go with the 800C, otherwise, I'd wait until you can spend a little more.

One other thing to keep in mind is that brick ovens tend to be a little more durable than refractory.  I don't personally know anyone with a refractory oven that's failed, but, in theory, brick is a bit more durable. The brick version of the 800 tacks on another 500 bucks- that's a tough call. $2.5K for the refractory version seems pretty reasonable.

Before you do anything, I'd touch base with Robyn and see how much she paid for installation.  It was an indoor install, which I'm sure drove the price up a bit, but it might be helpful to get an idea.

Offline italdream

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Re: ALFA Pizza Oven and Other Lower Budget WFOs
« Reply #28 on: July 08, 2012, 09:35:53 AM »
Hey Scott, you are the man! Thank you for that. I kind of was reaching the same conclusion. FGMs just look better products (at least to me, and based on my limited understanding). It seems that for basic neapolitan, it may be now for a 800C or wait (arghh... waiting) for a 950 (BTW the bricked version looks fantastic). at least I won't be falling for the ALFA thingy any time soon.

Offline Chicago Bob

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Re: ALFA Pizza Oven and Other Lower Budget WFOs
« Reply #29 on: July 08, 2012, 01:36:26 PM »
Scott,

Nice call on adding an insert...wonder how long it would/will take now for FGM to be adding this new accessory to their catalog. Any thoughts on that Scott...would it be easier for them to just incorporate that design into a whole new build or is that crazy mans talk? Also,if a guy wanted to add this insert you talked about am I correct in assuming that one would want to fashion it in a way that when it's butted up to the oven just inside the U piece you would want to bypass/minimize some of that vent channel...will this give you more heat? And, depending on the depth of the insert you can get the more advantageous throat you mentioned? Sorta two birds with one insert.. ;)  Speaking of benefits...why the deeper throat anyway? (keep it clean now Scott! :-D)

Thanks,
Bob

edit: ok, I jus now found out what the throat is, makes sense now. :-[


Bob
« Last Edit: July 09, 2012, 09:32:44 AM by Chicago Bob »
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Offline Chicago Bob

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Re: ALFA Pizza Oven and Other Lower Budget WFOs
« Reply #30 on: July 08, 2012, 01:57:56 PM »
For example the Forno Bravo Casa2G90 has good size for me (36") and decent price but dome is higher and door larger.



Steve,"EV" jus put one of these in an old converted Airstream trailer. Really neat an I think that oven is capable,check it out....http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,19725.msg193381.html#msg193381
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Offline italdream

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Re: ALFA Pizza Oven and Other Lower Budget WFOs
« Reply #31 on: July 08, 2012, 02:13:12 PM »
The retro looking WFO RV is classic.

Steve,"EV" jus put one of these in an old converted Airstream trailer. Really neat an I think that oven is capable,check it out....http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,19725.msg193381.html#msg193381

Offline RobynB

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Re: ALFA Pizza Oven and Other Lower Budget WFOs
« Reply #32 on: July 08, 2012, 05:44:28 PM »
If you look at FGM's website under oven accessories:  http://www.fourgrandmere.com/catalog/index.php?cPath=21_24&osCsid=tcv94h690n7at9uka5706nk4n1 (there are two pages) you can see that FGM already offers some door options.  It seems like it wouldn't be much work for them to re-engineer a door with the specs you want, or at least close.  Scott, have you looked at that section? 

I, personally, wouldn't want a smaller opening.  With the 950, as Scott said, it's less of an issue, and I'm very comfortable with what I have, wouldn't want it any smaller.  By contrast, I've cooked in a Cirigliano Forni oven with a bigger opening, and it definitely feels like it uses more wood and puts out a lot more heat into the room.  But again, these are bigger ovens so not relevant to this discussion.

Bob, thanks for the nice comment!

Offline shuboyje

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Re: ALFA Pizza Oven and Other Lower Budget WFOs
« Reply #33 on: July 08, 2012, 10:37:44 PM »
The doors FGM sells are all outer doors.  The size of the inner door is of larger concern because of it's function as a damper for the ovens combustion.  A door height of 63% of the dome height is considered "ideal" for a masonry black oven.  I will be the first person to question that number.  For instance the door shape should change that number drastically, yet it is never considered.  That said, an 8.5" door on a 9.5" oven is 90%.  The raised option FGM offer further increases this number to 92%.

Another french option, Le Panyol, sold in the US by Maine Wood Heat is similar to FGM in the facts that it's ovens have a low dome and all use the same size door.  In the case of Le Panyol most of their residential ovens seem to have a near perfect IMHO 12 1/4" dome height with a door height of 8 5/8".  That works out to 70%, much closer to the "ideal".  Down side is these ovens are extremely expensive.  Over $4000 for the core kit alone for a 40" oven.  By the time you insulate and enclose it you could buy a Neapolitan oven.

After dome height door size is the next most important "number" in pizza oven design.  From a thermal efficiency standpoint the door is a pizza ovens biggest achilles heel.  It's a gapping un-insulated hole that let's heat poor out of the oven.  The smallest door possible that allows what you want to cook in and the combustion gases to come and go freely is the best one.   
-Jeff


Offline Chicago Bob

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Re: ALFA Pizza Oven and Other Lower Budget WFOs
« Reply #34 on: July 09, 2012, 12:00:56 AM »
Hey Jeff,

You built a beautiful oven and your "so it begins' thread is great in so many ways. Thank you for that.
Would you mind explaining why you prefer a 12 1/4 in. dome height(or 12 3/4 as in yours) rather than the 20% lower variety....thanks!

Bob
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Offline breadstoneovens

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Re: ALFA Pizza Oven and Other Lower Budget WFOs
« Reply #35 on: July 09, 2012, 09:13:10 AM »
Antoine, are you reading this?  :)  Could you pass along these concerns to the powers that be?  An oven with a 9.5" dome really shouldn't have an 8.5"  door. Perhaps for bread, but not for pizza.  How about taking a page out of the Stefano Ferrara playbook and fabricating some kind of insert for the door?

Yes, I am reading this and will try to reply to everyone at once and will try to not come across too defensive.
I have to say that I have had requests for a taller door ( which generated the raised option ) or wider door ( special order ) but never for a smaller door. You need to keep in mind that you need to be able to put wood and pizza ( or other food ) through the door, so smaller may make it more challenging. Also if you are tall and want to be able to look at you pizza without breaking your back, lower door means more bending to see inside, even if your oven it set high-up on a stand. Anyhow, I will speak with FGM about your request and see what we can come up with.

For the throat, there are 3 sizes; 6", 7" and 8". I use 6" for small ovens and 8" for bigger ovens. 7" is not used much as it is more expensive to find the right chimney pipe that size. Too small of chimney pipe with make your oven smoke, but bigger only helps better venting.

The special shape of the dome helps with greater retention of the heat, but of course most of it goes through the door and the exhaust.

The oven and their doors are made for indoor and outdoor installation.

Finely, as much as the 63% dome/door ratio is highly regarded in North America, it is seen as irrelevant in Europe and they have been using such oven since before the Roman Empire.

Now everyone has opinions about what is best and at the end each person need to find the right oven for them.

Such comments are very interesting, so please keep providing your feedback so FGM can keep improving.

Antoine
WFO cooking is about passion.

scott123

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Re: ALFA Pizza Oven and Other Lower Budget WFOs
« Reply #36 on: July 10, 2012, 12:31:39 PM »
The doors FGM sells are all outer doors.  The size of the inner door is of larger concern because of it's function as a damper for the ovens combustion.  A door height of 63% of the dome height is considered "ideal" for a masonry black oven.  I will be the first person to question that number.  For instance the door shape should change that number drastically, yet it is never considered.  That said, an 8.5" door on a 9.5" oven is 90%.  The raised option FGM offer further increases this number to 92%.

Another french option, Le Panyol, sold in the US by Maine Wood Heat is similar to FGM in the facts that it's ovens have a low dome and all use the same size door.  In the case of Le Panyol most of their residential ovens seem to have a near perfect IMHO 12 1/4" dome height with a door height of 8 5/8".  That works out to 70%, much closer to the "ideal".  Down side is these ovens are extremely expensive.  Over $4000 for the core kit alone for a 40" oven.  By the time you insulate and enclose it you could buy a Neapolitan oven.

After dome height door size is the next most important "number" in pizza oven design.  From a thermal efficiency standpoint the door is a pizza ovens biggest achilles heel.  It's a gapping un-insulated hole that let's heat poor out of the oven.  The smallest door possible that allows what you want to cook in and the combustion gases to come and go freely is the best one.   

Thanks, Jeff, I was hoping you'd chime in because of your background in these matters.

I'm not sure we're on exactly the same page, but I think it's very similar. When I talk about 'throat' I think it's along the same lines as your 'inner door,'  although my 'throat' encompasses the whole entryway. If, for instance, FGM went with a 63% inner door and 63% outer door, but left the rest of the throat the way it is, that would miss the mark as well, imo. The chimney area should be elevated, but I don't think it should be 90% (or higher) either.  Ideally, the entire entryway would be less than 70%- and a bit deeper.

So, if I'm hearing you correctly, a reduction in the inner door height is more critical to the FGM design than the outer door.  Is that correct?  Would an outer door insert, while not being as combustion friendly as an inner door reduction, at least prevent some heat from 'pouring out of the oven?'  Would an outdoor insert be a bit more feasible, since it would involve modifying the inserts they have now?

I'm picturing a cast iron door with a second door within it- two sets of hinges.  When the larger door is opened, you have the full width (for fire tending and larger pizzas) and the smaller door gives you Neapolitan access. It would be nice if the door could be insulated, but that may not be practical.

scott123

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Re: ALFA Pizza Oven and Other Lower Budget WFOs
« Reply #37 on: July 10, 2012, 12:56:36 PM »
Yes, I am reading this and will try to reply to everyone at once and will try to not come across too defensive.
I have to say that I have had requests for a taller door ( which generated the raised option ) or wider door ( special order ) but never for a smaller door. You need to keep in mind that you need to be able to put wood and pizza ( or other food ) through the door, so smaller may make it more challenging. Also if you are tall and want to be able to look at you pizza without breaking your back, lower door means more bending to see inside, even if your oven it set high-up on a stand. Anyhow, I will speak with FGM about your request and see what we can come up with.

For the throat, there are 3 sizes; 6", 7" and 8". I use 6" for small ovens and 8" for bigger ovens. 7" is not used much as it is more expensive to find the right chimney pipe that size. Too small of chimney pipe with make your oven smoke, but bigger only helps better venting.

The special shape of the dome helps with greater retention of the heat, but of course most of it goes through the door and the exhaust.

The oven and their doors are made for indoor and outdoor installation.

Finely, as much as the 63% dome/door ratio is highly regarded in North America, it is seen as irrelevant in Europe and they have been using such oven since before the Roman Empire.

Now everyone has opinions about what is best and at the end each person need to find the right oven for them.

Such comments are very interesting, so please keep providing your feedback so FGM can keep improving.

Antoine

Antoine, thank you for your reply.

I think we might be using the term 'throat' differently.  I might be wrong about this, but, for me, 'throat' is synonymous with 'entryway'- any non-dome area.

It's very important to keep in mind that we're pizza makers here, not bread makers and, for many of us, the holy grail is Neapolitan oven thermodynamics in a sub $4K oven.  When you say 'Europe' I'm guessing you really mean France, right?  ;D France may have a long history baking bread in high door ovens, but Naples has a very rich, not quite so long history of using low door ovens for Neapolitan pizza. I'm not sure if it was intentional, but FGM has taken a very big step in giving us Neapolitan thermodynamics in a 9" dome.  This 9" dome a very very very big deal and it's the sole reason why FGM is currently the toast of the forum.

Just because FGM is giving us a 9" dome, though, doesn't mean that we're not yearning for more.  Neapolitan pizza is huge right now, and, from what I can tell, only getting bigger.  The market for home ovens that are optimized for Neapolitan thermodynamics is only going to grow.  It won't be long before someone comes along and not only gives us the dome height we want, but the inner door height as well as the chimney loop.  Intentionally or not, FGM is the first on the scene.  If they can listen to John Q. Neapolitan Pizzamaker and bend a little bit with special inserts, and, ideally, tweaked designs, they could make a load of money from this.

Offline breadstoneovens

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Re: ALFA Pizza Oven and Other Lower Budget WFOs
« Reply #38 on: July 10, 2012, 03:53:00 PM »
Antoine, thank you for your reply.

I think we might be using the term 'throat' differently.  I might be wrong about this, but, for me, 'throat' is synonymous with 'entryway'- any non-dome area.

It's very important to keep in mind that we're pizza makers here, not bread makers and, for many of us, the holy grail is Neapolitan oven thermodynamics in a sub $4K oven.  When you say 'Europe' I'm guessing you really mean France, right?  ;D France may have a long history baking bread in high door ovens, but Naples has a very rich, not quite so long history of using low door ovens for Neapolitan pizza. I'm not sure if it was intentional, but FGM has taken a very big step in giving us Neapolitan thermodynamics in a 9" dome.  This 9" dome a very very very big deal and it's the sole reason why FGM is currently the toast of the forum.

Just because FGM is giving us a 9" dome, though, doesn't mean that we're not yearning for more.  Neapolitan pizza is huge right now, and, from what I can tell, only getting bigger.  The market for home ovens that are optimized for Neapolitan thermodynamics is only going to grow.  It won't be long before someone comes along and not only gives us the dome height we want, but the inner door height as well as the chimney loop.  Intentionally or not, FGM is the first on the scene.  If they can listen to John Q. Neapolitan Pizzamaker and bend a little bit with special inserts, and, ideally, tweaked designs, they could make a load of money from this.
Sorry, I thought you meant flue connector by "throat", and I get your point for the 63% opening. There is an opportunity on the US market for the WFO to be with a lower opening and I will be addressing that with FGM next week as I will be there.
I'll let you what comes out of it.

Antoine
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Offline Tommy T

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Re: ALFA Pizza Oven and Other Lower Budget WFOs
« Reply #39 on: July 10, 2012, 05:31:54 PM »
I am getting ready to build another oven for myself.  A few things posted in this thread have got me thinking I may want to change my plans.  I built my oven from Pompeii oven plans several years back.  I can get some good Neoish pizzas (60-90sec) out it when its totally cranked up.  But doesn't take long until I'm in the 2-3 min cook time.  Basically, dome is too high (22"), door is too wide (20"x12"), chimney throat too big (10"x7").  When I built my oven I didn't realize how important all of these things played into making great pizza.  Then again I had never had Neapolitan Pizza before either and didn't understand what it took to cook it properly.  I can get real close to where i want my bakes to be but after the fire dies a bit so does the oven.  After the third or forth pizza i feel i need to apologize.

Can a 9" dome height really work?  My idea was more in the 12-14" range.  You guys have been batting around door sizes.  What actual door size do you feel would work with a 9" dome?   

I have also considered a squirrel tail exhaust throat similar to along the lines of what Berry in Cape Town had done.  In doing an exhaust like this what are the advantages?  I could see that the heated gasses going through the exhaust would actually help in  charging the dome.

Any additional thoughts or ideas would be great!
Thanks,Tom

Offline shuboyje

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Re: ALFA Pizza Oven and Other Lower Budget WFOs
« Reply #40 on: July 10, 2012, 05:47:33 PM »
Sorry, I thought you meant flue connector by "throat", and I get your point for the 63% opening. There is an opportunity on the US market for the WFO to be with a lower opening and I will be addressing that with FGM next week as I will be there.
I'll let you what comes out of it.

Antoine

In my humble opinion the oven FGM needs to make, and an oven that could be huge is the US market would have a dome height in the 12" range and a door height in the 8" range.  Round in shape and about 40" in diameter. I would also put an 18" wide door on it so those who want to can launch an 18" New york style pie into that bad boy on rare occasions.   A brick lined version of this oven would take what is already a top notch product to the next level in my book.

I for one really love your presence here.  You seem to have a direct line to FGM, and with your input they could produce the next generation of kit oven that is truly on par with a Neapolitan oven for home use.  From what I've seen they are already very close.
-Jeff

Offline shuboyje

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Re: ALFA Pizza Oven and Other Lower Budget WFOs
« Reply #41 on: July 10, 2012, 08:49:02 PM »
Hey Jeff,

You built a beautiful oven and your "so it begins' thread is great in so many ways. Thank you for that.
Would you mind explaining why you prefer a 12 1/4 in. dome height(or 12 3/4 as in yours) rather than the 20% lower variety....thanks!

Bob

Thanks Bob.

A 12 3/4" dome height is plenty low enough to produce a 40 second pizza if you desire while still allowing a door height of 8".  I can tell you from experience building a fire inside a 42" oven through a 8 inch door is a challenge.  Building one through a door that is less then 6 inches would be near impossible.  That is what would be required to have the thermal characteristics I am after with a 9" dome height.  I'm not saying that the dimensions of the FGM make it unsuitable, but if you are going to the trouble of custom building you might as well build the oven within ratio.

I should note that my oven dimensions were not based on the door height, they were instead based on my interpretation of the dimensions used to build classic neapolitan ovens.  My dome height was derived by laying out a three centered arch with a 42" base.  The 8" door height was based off the standard door height used on Neapolitan ovens.  It just so turns out that those two numbers work out perfectly with the 63% ratio.  I do not think this is a coincidence.  I did deviate from the classic neapolitan hemispherical door shape slightly to make an 18" wide door so I could launch 18" pizzas.

Hope this helps a bit
   
-Jeff


Offline shuboyje

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Re: ALFA Pizza Oven and Other Lower Budget WFOs
« Reply #42 on: July 10, 2012, 09:17:57 PM »
Thanks, Jeff, I was hoping you'd chime in because of your background in these matters.

I'm not sure we're on exactly the same page, but I think it's very similar. When I talk about 'throat' I think it's along the same lines as your 'inner door,'  although my 'throat' encompasses the whole entryway. If, for instance, FGM went with a 63% inner door and 63% outer door, but left the rest of the throat the way it is, that would miss the mark as well, imo. The chimney area should be elevated, but I don't think it should be 90% (or higher) either.  Ideally, the entire entryway would be less than 70%- and a bit deeper.

So, if I'm hearing you correctly, a reduction in the inner door height is more critical to the FGM design than the outer door.  Is that correct?  Would an outer door insert, while not being as combustion friendly as an inner door reduction, at least prevent some heat from 'pouring out of the oven?'  Would an outdoor insert be a bit more feasible, since it would involve modifying the inserts they have now?

I'm picturing a cast iron door with a second door within it- two sets of hinges.  When the larger door is opened, you have the full width (for fire tending and larger pizzas) and the smaller door gives you Neapolitan access. It would be nice if the door could be insulated, but that may not be practical.

Finally the last of my many replies, lol.  I've added an image to help explain my terms.  The image should explain why the outer door dimension has little bearing on the ovens function.  It is only the inner door that controls the flow of air in an out of the oven, and it's height that creates a chamber of super heated air in the top of the oven above the door.  This space above the door helps keep the hot air inside the oven a bit longer allowing it to give off more of it's heat before it finally drops low enough to flow out the door and then up the stack.  That should explain why the door insert would need to go on the inner door to reduce it's height and in turn increase the space above the door for better thermal efficiency. 

-Jeff

Offline Chicago Bob

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Re: ALFA Pizza Oven and Other Lower Budget WFOs
« Reply #43 on: July 10, 2012, 10:15:14 PM »
Finally the last of my many replies, lol.  I've added an image to help explain my terms.  The image should explain why the outer door dimension has little bearing on the ovens function.  It is only the inner door that controls the flow of air in an out of the oven, and it's height that creates a chamber of super heated air in the top of the oven above the door.  This space above the door helps keep the hot air inside the oven a bit longer allowing it to give off more of it's heat before it finally drops low enough to flow out the door and then up the stack.  That should explain why the door insert would need to go on the inner door to reduce it's height and in turn increase the space above the door for better thermal efficiency. 


Nice call on adding an insert...wonder how long it would/will take now for FGM to be adding this new accessory to their catalog. Any thoughts on that Scott...would it be easier for them to just incorporate that design into a whole new build or is that crazy mans talk? Also,if a guy wanted to add this insert you talked about am I correct in assuming that one would want to fashion it in a way that when it's butted up to the oven just inside the U piece you would want to bypass/minimize some of that vent channel...will this give you more heat? And, depending on the depth of the insert you can get the more advantageous throat you mentioned? Sorta two birds with one insert..



shuboyje,

Does it look like I am understanding this correctly?  Thanks.

Bob
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Offline italdream

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Re: ALFA Pizza Oven and Other Lower Budget WFOs
« Reply #44 on: July 11, 2012, 04:25:28 PM »
I wanted to give an update about my quest for a lower budget "neapolitan-style" oven. Having ruled out stand-alone pre-assembled WFOs, I turned my attention to oven kits. Based on my understanding and people's opinion on this forum, FGM seems the closest to what I'd like to get.

However, it turns out that I would likely need a building permit to install a kit in an outdoor setting, even if it is set up on a metal stand. In fact, the cement slab would be seen as construction, regardless if the stand is metal or cement. This changes things from a budget stand-point and makes any DYI option harder (plans, drawing, BP application etc.). In other words, the oven kit becomes a little, albeit very important tile, in a more complicated puzzle.

I have a call out to the building inspector in my town to confirm my preliminary findings about need for a permit. But if this turns out to be true, sub-$4K ovens become unattainable, at least in areas like mine where a building permit is required. The DIY route becomes much harder.

Offline Michael130207

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Re: ALFA Pizza Oven and Other Lower Budget WFOs
« Reply #45 on: July 11, 2012, 04:45:27 PM »
Depending on where you live the requirement for a building permit will certainly change. Your building inspector will be able to give you details, however some are more helpful than others. Make sure to ask what it is about your design that triggers the need for a permit. In many areas if the total height is below a certain height (often 6 feet) or a certain square footage (64 square feet where I live). If you are going the metal stand route and want to avoid a concrete slab, you could put it on a patio with a base of compacted crushed stone covered in pavers.
Michael

Offline Chicago Bob

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Re: ALFA Pizza Oven and Other Lower Budget WFOs
« Reply #46 on: July 11, 2012, 05:23:56 PM »
Not trying to be a wise guy but why in the world would you want to have to deal with a building inspector just to put a 'lil 'ol oven in your back yard?
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Offline italdream

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Re: ALFA Pizza Oven and Other Lower Budget WFOs
« Reply #47 on: July 11, 2012, 06:54:30 PM »
Not a problem. But do you mean i should just go ahead and do it without a permit  8), or forget about the whole thing until i am ready to fork out at least $7K to 10K?
« Last Edit: July 11, 2012, 07:59:25 PM by italdream »

Offline JConk007

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Re: ALFA Pizza Oven and Other Lower Budget WFOs
« Reply #48 on: July 11, 2012, 11:22:54 PM »
 spend $5K  and get a Permit (i did ) if your house burns down (very extreme case be hey you never know ) do you  think your insurance might frown upon your uninspected oven.?
I like the finish of the FGM but I believe its a finish Scott, not actual brick full size bindividual brick ? as with the forno picola ? Those doors are too big also !! same with Pavesi its a " brick finish"  I  really like the 950 B and highly recommend  it . I think if FGM can get that on some type of a stand ready to cook (with a slighlty smaller door)  for under 5K they have a real hit !
John
I Love to Flirt with Fire! www.flirtingwithfirepizza.com

Offline BrickStoneOven

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Re: ALFA Pizza Oven and Other Lower Budget WFOs
« Reply #49 on: July 11, 2012, 11:22:59 PM »
Not a problem. But do you mean i should just go ahead and do it without a permit  8), or forget about the whole thing until i am ready to fork out at least $7K to 10K?

If you need a permit get it, because if you spend the money and you have to pay a fine or take it down after you spent money is going to suck. FWIW I didn't have to get one and I'm in MA. The only thing I did was call DigSafe.