Author Topic: Forno Bravo Andiamo or Forno Classico Piccolo (Read 4411 times)

mitchjg · « **Reply #20 on:** July 07, 2012, 09:16:43 PM »

Quote from: BrickStoneOven on July 06, 2012, 03:05:10 PM

Have you seen this thread yet? http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,18632.0.html He's had great success.

Sure have. It looks like his pizzas got better and better and better,.........

Now, my worry train has really sped up. My wife came home last night pointing out to me that a neighbor has a pizza oven and the amount of smoke was incredible. She is afraid I will do the same. From all I have read here, you get smoke in the first 10 minutes or so and then it goes to minimal. If true, that is better than when I get my smoker ready for barbecue. But, it definitely a new one - she has moved from "get it if you want it" to "are you nuts?!, look at the crazy smoke you will make!"

pizzaneer · « **Reply #21 on:** July 07, 2012, 09:40:09 PM »

Sounds like your neighbor could use some help... you'll only get smoke until the combustion temp gets high enough to burn off the gases. That said, he could be burning green wood...

BrickStoneOven · « **Reply #22 on:** July 08, 2012, 10:13:11 AM »

Quote from: pizzaneer on July 07, 2012, 09:40:09 PM

That said, he could be burning green wood...

This.

The only time I've seen huge amounts of smoke are either when it rains and I forget to empty out the bucket with the fire starting wood. Other times it's when you start the initial fire to "big", as in using to much wood. Or if you add wood to soon before the fire has burnt through that "smoke" phase of the fire. Personally as a rule of thumb, I wait about 30-40 minutes for the first fire to burn down. Then every 10-15 minutes or so I'll add more wood until I reach the target temp I'm looking for. Usually it takes somewhere around 2.5-3 hours before I get the oven fully saturated to the target temp I need. But for a smaller oven like those two it would probably take about half that time.

Honestly if you use common sense the initial start up smoke only lasts about 10-20 minutes depending on how seasoned your wood is and if you've built the fire correctly that first start up wont create too much smoke.

mitchjg · « **Reply #23 on:** July 08, 2012, 10:36:47 PM »

Quote from: scott123 on July 06, 2012, 02:40:56 AM

Mitch, for what they're worth, here are my two cents.

Imo, if you are a Neapolitan pizza obsessive or plan on eventually being one, neither the Andiamo nor the Piccolo is the oven for you. The dome heights on both of these ovens are egregiously high. The height of the dome relates directly to the top/bottom heat ratio. The higher the dome, the less top heat is generated and the harder it is to achieve the characteristic leoparding of Neapolitan pizza.

Fornographer has made some stunning pizzas, but I believe, with his oven, should he ever yearn for something a little more Neapolitan, something a bit more Craig-ish, he's going to hit a wall. Maybe he'll do one Craig quality pie in one night, but have trouble doing more than one at a time. Whatever the outcome, his oven won't ever match Craig's.

Now, I know it's a lot to expect for a $2Kish oven to act like a $15Kish oven, but, we're seeing $3Kish ovens with more Neapolitan-ish thermal dynamics that ARE acting like their $15Kish brethren- or at least showing a great deal of promise- nothing portable, so that might rule them out for you, personally, but I'd still like to share the information before you pull the trigger.

Scott:

I think I understand the gist of the physics you are describing. And, by the time all is said and done with an Andiamo, it is close to 4k. Are there any smallish ovens in the 3k range you could recommend? I have no handyman/mason ability at all (and not the time either) and would need to hire someone to help me out.

thanks a lot.

scott123 · « **Reply #24 on:** July 10, 2012, 12:07:20 PM »

Mitch, it seems like you're in a somewhat similar camp to Italdream, although I think portability is more important to you and I think you have a little less DIY inclination. These threads have been running concurrently, but, because Italdream is more of a confirmed Neapolitan pizza obsessive, I've shared more of my thoughts in his thread.

http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,19857.0.html

If you haven't already, read this discussion. It covers all the sub $3K options.

mitchjg · « **Reply #25 on:** July 15, 2012, 08:11:22 PM »

Well, to overcome my novice knowledge and try to make the best possible decision, I have been reading the thread Scott123 referred me to, many other threads and various websites.

In reviewing my constraints, I decided I must have wheels (store the oven day to day against the garage wall, roll it out to the middle of the courtyard when using) and cannot go too big for both product availability reasons and space reasons.

It looks like three choices: a Roundboy oven, Forno Bravo Andiamo, or the FGM 700C from Bread Stone Ovens. The costs, including shipping and tax, are approximately 2500, 3500 and 4500. So, what to do?

From what I can tell (and please tell me if i am off), the Roundboy looks of reasonable dimensions of floor, height, door height, etc and certainly is the most cost effective. It does require assembly, but the assembly looks idiot proof (and I am an assembly idiot). But, given the price, etc., I am wondering about "if it is too good to be true, then it isn't"

The Andiamo looks like a great compromise of the various parameters, but in reading Scott 123's comments, the dome height may be too much?

And the FB 700C has a lower dome height so long as I do not get the raised version and may be the best design in size and quality.

I very much welcome comments from you guys with more expertise than me and with any experience with the ovens themselves to help me make the best decision.

thanks!

communist · « **Reply #26 on:** July 15, 2012, 08:50:08 PM »

i am interested in neo now, and took a drive to look at the round boy, which is made about 20 miles from me. Boy, it looked small and cheesy. just a gut reaction. my wife agreed. i was not excited about it. i need some neo fans on the forum to get excited about it - i have seen rookie enthusiasm, but no read solid pics or experience. mark

scott123 · « **Reply #27 on:** July 15, 2012, 08:59:54 PM »

Quote from: communist on July 15, 2012, 08:50:08 PM

i am interested in neo now

Say it isn't so, Mark. Are we losing you to the 'charred' side?

Seriously, though, out of these three ovens, I'm most dubious of the Roundboy.

Mitch, is the 700C really a thousand more than the Andiamo? My gut feeling is that it is probably worth the extra thousand, but, I can't recommend it until we get more feedback from someone who's purchased it and used it. If you HAVE to pull the trigger now, and it HAS to roll on wheels, then I think the Andiamo is your best bet.

mitchjg · « **Reply #28 on:** July 16, 2012, 03:19:12 AM »

Scott:

Thanks for the help - much appreciated. I do not have a deadline to buy and I can take more time. Of course, after all the research and looking, it seems like the next step is in front of me. The courtyard is such that the oven would be against the garage that has a roof overhang or against a fence. Between the two, I could live with it against the fence if I had to get one without wheels. I have not checked, but I would think the city would object to it being permanently adjacent to the wooden fence. Does that sound safe? And if it was, and I ditched the idea of wheels would there be another suggestion?

Regarding the FGM. it sounds iike you are saying you probably would prefer the design and construction but there is a lack of references. So, it is a bit of a gamble there.

I guess I will ponder a bit more but the choices seem about as clear as they are going to be for the moment.

thanks again - Mitch

dellavecchia · « **Reply #29 on:** July 16, 2012, 07:52:20 AM »

The Andiamo dome height is not an issue for Neapolitan pizza. The only issue I have with my Primavera 70, which is the same as the Andiamo 70, is that I wish I had enough room for two pies at once. Dome height is less of an issue (if an issue at all) when the oven is smaller in diameter since the pies are so close to the flames. Here are some examples of what I get out of the FB oven:

http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,19928.0.html

http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,19526.msg192154.html#msg192154

http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,16918.msg164871.html#msg164871

John

scott123 · « **Reply #30 on:** July 16, 2012, 04:49:15 PM »

John, respectfully, you make some of the best looking Neapolitan pizzas on the forum, but my feelings about oven selection relate less to making beautiful Neapolitan pizza and more to making it in the easiest and most optimized manner. When it comes to optimal conditions for Neapolitan pizza, dome heights matter, imo.

Mitch, the topic of town inspectors came up in the other thread. Some members were for getting a permit, some against. I'm in the against category. While inspectors can play an important role in ensuring safety, I really don't see an oven kit, even if put together poorly, ever being more dangerous than a grill, and I'd never get a permit for a grill. People put grills next to wooden structures all the time. Unfortunately, if you talk to the city, there's a good chance they'll make a distinction between a WFO and a grill and make a bit stink about the number of feet of clearance you'll need.

This might end up biting me the butt eventually, but, for WFOs, I don't talk to the city.

mitchjg · « **Reply #31 on:** July 16, 2012, 07:18:18 PM »

I may make a call to the city, namelessly, or ask the contractor that has done work on my house to ask for me. I am wanting to assume that the portable nature of the who on wheels makes it clear that there is no actual installation. Operation of course is still something I cannot argue with but I would think it would narrow the area of contention should there be any.

fornographer · « **Reply #32 on:** July 16, 2012, 07:22:15 PM »

Quote from: dellavecchia on July 16, 2012, 07:52:20 AM

The Andiamo dome height is not an issue for Neapolitan pizza. The only issue I have with my Primavera 70, which is the same as the Andiamo 70, is that I wish I had enough room for two pies at once. Dome height is less of an issue (if an issue at all) when the oven is smaller in diameter since the pies are so close to the flames. Here are some examples of what I get out of the FB oven:

http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,19928.0.html

http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,19526.msg192154.html#msg192154

http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,16918.msg164871.html#msg164871

John

John is right. I could not discern, thanks to the pizzaiolos (they're friendly once you tell them you're an enthusiast and make your own pies in your own wfo) who let me check their ovens out with their infrared guns, a difference in the ratio between floor and dome heat between the smaller ovens (Andiamo) and the larger ones at the professional outfits in town. Those are Acuntos and Ferrara ovens that I checked out. The main difference that I could discern is the distance between the pies and the fire as John said. Then again one outfit was cooking their pies very close to the flame which is almost similar to the distance that you would expect from the Andiamo 70 or the Primavera 70. If you want the leoparding that a lot of these bigger ovens have, having a long ferment (more than 24 hrs) and a flame that covers the entire span of the dome from the left to the right will do it. Craig recently suggested that having a cool dough might help--I will try this on my next bake.

The bigger ovens obviously have more thermal mass and that might make them more manageable when cooking a large volume of pies. The most pies I have cooked out of the Andiamo was 12 and it can get quite interesting in managing the floor heat but it's just another fun skill to learn in addition to make a proper dough.

Until I get a chance to cook my dough in an Acunto or a Ferrara, I do not believe that the bigger ovens will make a significantly better pizza than the oven I am working with now. I think with my current oven, with more practice and experience, I can come within striking distance, equal or maybe even surpass some of the outfits here in Atlanta that have WFOs. I think I may have already surpassed the dough of one outfit in downtown Decatur that uses the same model Acunto as Craig is using. Just to be clear, Craig and the Acunto are the perfect storm. Combine a master with the dough and ingredients and that oven and we see the consistently great pies on his posts.

However I have to say that I feel that the wall that Scott is suggesting that I will hit is just something like the Maginot Line

Go ahead and purchase the oven that you think is right for you and start learning.

fornographer · « **Reply #33 on:** July 16, 2012, 07:54:11 PM »

And these are the breakfast pizzas I cooked for my 8 month pregnant wife this past weekend.

scott123 · « **Reply #34 on:** July 16, 2012, 08:25:27 PM »

Quote from: fornographer on July 16, 2012, 07:22:15 PM

I could not discern, thanks to the pizzaiolos (they're friendly once you tell them you're an enthusiast and make your own pies in your own wfo) who let me check their ovens out with their infrared guns, a difference in the ratio between floor and dome heat between the smaller ovens (Andiamo) and the larger ones at the professional outfits in town.

It's not about temperature, it's about distance. When you halve the distance, you double the impact from infrared radiation (heat coming off the dome).

scott123 · « **Reply #35 on:** July 16, 2012, 08:39:07 PM »

Quote from: mitchjg on July 16, 2012, 07:18:18 PM

I may make a call to the city, namelessly, or ask the contractor that has done work on my house to ask for me.

Smart move- find out what the code says, but stay anonymous.

My grandfather was a union boss and later, a state senator, so when it comes to government officials, I have a hard time not being a bit wary. I've also read through parts of the code that had less to do with safety and more to do with a particular company's product being ensured the market share or appeasing insurance companies. I also believe that code can frequently be heavy handed in order to counter the actions of a very small group of especially stupid people.

As far as I'm concerned, if you use your head, you generally don't need a building inspector- and especially not for little stuff like this.

shuboyje · « **Reply #36 on:** July 16, 2012, 10:41:00 PM »

Quote from: fornographer on July 16, 2012, 07:22:15 PM

John is right. I could not discern, thanks to the pizzaiolos (they're friendly once you tell them you're an enthusiast and make your own pies in your own wfo) who let me check their ovens out with their infrared guns, a difference in the ratio between floor and dome heat between the smaller ovens (Andiamo) and the larger ones at the professional outfits in town. Those are Acuntos and Ferrara ovens that I checked out. The main difference that I could discern is the distance between the pies and the fire as John said. Then again one outfit was cooking their pies very close to the flame which is almost similar to the distance that you would expect from the Andiamo 70 or the Primavera 70. If you want the leoparding that a lot of these bigger ovens have, having a long ferment (more than 24 hrs) and a flame that covers the entire span of the dome from the left to the right will do it. Craig recently suggested that having a cool dough might help--I will try this on my next bake.

The bigger ovens obviously have more thermal mass and that might make them more manageable when cooking a large volume of pies. The most pies I have cooked out of the Andiamo was 12 and it can get quite interesting in managing the floor heat but it's just another fun skill to learn in addition to make a proper dough.

Until I get a chance to cook my dough in an Acunto or a Ferrara, I do not believe that the bigger ovens will make a significantly better pizza than the oven I am working with now. I think with my current oven, with more practice and experience, I can come within striking distance, equal or maybe even surpass some of the outfits here in Atlanta that have WFOs. I think I may have already surpassed the dough of one outfit in downtown Decatur that uses the same model Acunto as Craig is using. Just to be clear, Craig and the Acunto are the perfect storm. Combine a master with the dough and ingredients and that oven and we see the consistently great pies on his posts.

However I have to say that I feel that the wall that Scott is suggesting that I will hit is just something like the Maginot Line

Go ahead and purchase the oven that you think is right for you and start learning.

I have built a 30" and a 42" version of nearly the same oven. Both with domes around 13", doors around 8", a tall soldier and a flat dome. I built the 42" oven due to my frustrations with the 30". I can now say without a doubt the 42" oven produces a better pie then the 30" in every way. It is so much easier to bake in and achieve a consistent even bake in it is like night and day.

mikeyr · « **Reply #37 on:** July 20, 2012, 07:13:42 PM »

I know the thread is a few weeks old but you may want to drive down to Santa Barbara and talk to Forno Classico and see the ovens. They are pretty nice ovens, I would questions wheels on th Picollo just due to the weight on top of a fairly narrow stand that might be tippy but Giuseppe has done it.

I have his bigger oven the 100 so I was not concerned about moving it

mitchjg · « **Reply #38 on:** July 20, 2012, 10:39:13 PM »

Quote from: mikeyr on July 20, 2012, 07:13:42 PM

I know the thread is a few weeks old but you may want to drive down to Santa Barbara and talk to Forno Classico and see the ovens. They are pretty nice ovens, I would questions wheels on th Picollo just due to the weight on top of a fairly narrow stand that might be tippy but Giuseppe has done it.

I have his bigger oven the 100 so I was not concerned about moving it

I had definitely considered that. But, I wrote a note to ask if they would be on wheels for me. Giuseppe responded: "The Piccolo is a heavy duty oven and with the stand weighs around around 600 lbs. For this reason, we do not provide or recommend wheels."

So, I don't think I can work with it.

Thanks for trying to help.

- Mitch

BrickStoneOven · « **Reply #39 on:** July 21, 2012, 06:22:17 PM »

I don't see why they couldn't put it on a stand with wheels. Mine was and it was probably in the 1200lbs range.