Author Topic: Forno Bravo Andiamo or Forno Classico Piccolo  (Read 11160 times)

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Offline mitchjg

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Re: Forno Bravo Andiamo or Forno Classico Piccolo
« Reply #25 on: July 15, 2012, 08:11:22 PM »
Well, to overcome my novice knowledge and try to make the best possible decision, I have been reading the thread Scott123 referred me to, many other threads and various websites.

In reviewing my constraints, I decided I must have wheels (store the oven day to day against the garage wall, roll it out to the middle of the courtyard when using) and cannot go too big for both product availability reasons and space reasons.

It looks like three choices: a Roundboy oven, Forno Bravo Andiamo, or the FGM 700C from Bread Stone Ovens.  The costs, including shipping and tax, are approximately 2500, 3500 and 4500.  So, what to do?

From what I can tell (and please tell me if i am off), the Roundboy looks of reasonable dimensions of floor, height, door height, etc and certainly is the most cost effective.  It does require assembly, but the assembly looks idiot proof (and I am an assembly idiot).  But, given the price, etc., I am wondering about "if it is too good to be true, then it isn't"

The Andiamo looks like a great compromise of the various parameters, but in reading Scott 123's comments, the dome height may be too much? 

And the FB 700C has a lower dome height so long as I do not get the raised version and may be the best design in size and quality.

I very much welcome comments from you guys with more expertise than me and with any experience with the ovens themselves to help me make the best decision.

thanks!
Mitch


Offline communist

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Re: Forno Bravo Andiamo or Forno Classico Piccolo
« Reply #26 on: July 15, 2012, 08:50:08 PM »
i am interested in neo now, and took a drive to look at the round boy, which is made about 20 miles from me.  Boy, it looked small and cheesy.  just a gut reaction.  my wife agreed.  i was not excited about it.  i need some  neo fans on the forum to get excited about it - i have seen rookie enthusiasm, but no read solid pics or experience.  mark
« Last Edit: July 15, 2012, 08:51:41 PM by communist »

scott123

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Re: Forno Bravo Andiamo or Forno Classico Piccolo
« Reply #27 on: July 15, 2012, 08:59:54 PM »
i am interested in neo now

Say it isn't so, Mark. Are we losing you to the 'charred' side?

Seriously, though, out of these three ovens, I'm most dubious of the Roundboy.

Mitch, is the 700C really a thousand more than the Andiamo?  My gut feeling is that it is probably worth the extra thousand, but, I can't recommend it until we get more feedback from someone who's purchased it and used it.  If you HAVE to pull the trigger now, and it HAS to roll on wheels, then I think the Andiamo is your best bet.

« Last Edit: July 15, 2012, 09:01:34 PM by scott123 »

Offline mitchjg

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Re: Forno Bravo Andiamo or Forno Classico Piccolo
« Reply #28 on: July 16, 2012, 03:19:12 AM »
Scott:

Thanks for the help - much appreciated.  I do not have a deadline to buy and I can take more time.  Of course, after all the research and looking, it seems like the next step is in front of me.  The courtyard is such that the oven would be against the garage that has a roof overhang or against a fence.  Between the two, I could live with it against the fence if I had to get one without wheels.  I have not checked, but I would think the city would object to it being permanently adjacent to the wooden fence.  Does that sound safe?  And if it was, and I ditched the idea of wheels would there be another suggestion?

Regarding the FGM. it sounds iike you are saying you probably would prefer the design and construction but there is a lack of references.  So, it is a bit of a gamble there.

I guess I will ponder a bit more but the choices seem about as clear as they are going to be for the moment.

thanks again - Mitch
Mitch

Offline dellavecchia

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Re: Forno Bravo Andiamo or Forno Classico Piccolo
« Reply #29 on: July 16, 2012, 07:52:20 AM »
The Andiamo dome height is not an issue for Neapolitan pizza. The only issue I have with my Primavera 70, which is the same as the Andiamo 70, is that I wish I had enough room for two pies at once. Dome height is less of an issue (if an issue at all) when the oven is smaller in diameter since the pies are so close to the flames. Here are some examples of what I get out of the FB oven:

http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,19928.0.html

http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,19526.msg192154.html#msg192154

http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,16918.msg164871.html#msg164871

John

scott123

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Re: Forno Bravo Andiamo or Forno Classico Piccolo
« Reply #30 on: July 16, 2012, 04:49:15 PM »
John, respectfully, you make some of the best looking Neapolitan pizzas on the forum, but my feelings about oven selection relate less to making beautiful Neapolitan pizza and more to making it in the easiest and most optimized manner. When it comes to optimal conditions for Neapolitan pizza, dome heights matter, imo.

Mitch, the topic of town inspectors came up in the other thread.  Some members were for getting a permit, some against.  I'm in the against category.  While inspectors can play an important role in ensuring safety, I really don't see an oven kit, even if put together poorly, ever being more dangerous than a grill, and I'd never get a permit for a grill.  People put grills next to wooden structures all the time.  Unfortunately, if you talk to the city, there's a good chance they'll make a distinction between a WFO and a grill and make a bit stink about the number of feet of clearance you'll need.

This might end up biting me the butt eventually, but, for WFOs, I don't talk to the city.

Offline mitchjg

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Re: Forno Bravo Andiamo or Forno Classico Piccolo
« Reply #31 on: July 16, 2012, 07:18:18 PM »
I may make a call to the city, namelessly, or ask the contractor that has done work on my house to ask for me.  I am wanting to assume that the portable nature of the who on wheels makes it clear that there is no actual installation.  Operation of course is still something I cannot argue with but I would think it would narrow the area of contention should there be any.
Mitch

Offline fornographer

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Re: Forno Bravo Andiamo or Forno Classico Piccolo
« Reply #32 on: July 16, 2012, 07:22:15 PM »
The Andiamo dome height is not an issue for Neapolitan pizza. The only issue I have with my Primavera 70, which is the same as the Andiamo 70, is that I wish I had enough room for two pies at once. Dome height is less of an issue (if an issue at all) when the oven is smaller in diameter since the pies are so close to the flames. Here are some examples of what I get out of the FB oven:

http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,19928.0.html

http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,19526.msg192154.html#msg192154

http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,16918.msg164871.html#msg164871

John

John is right.  I could not discern, thanks to the pizzaiolos (they're friendly once you tell them you're an enthusiast and make your own pies in your own wfo) who let me check their ovens out with their infrared guns, a difference in the ratio between floor and dome heat between the smaller ovens (Andiamo) and the larger ones at the professional outfits in town. Those are Acuntos and Ferrara ovens that I checked out.  The main difference that I could discern is the distance between the pies and the fire as John said.  Then again one outfit was cooking their pies very close to the flame which is almost similar to the distance that you would expect from the Andiamo 70 or the Primavera 70.  If you want the leoparding that a lot of these bigger ovens have, having a long ferment (more than 24 hrs) and a flame that covers the entire span of the dome from the left to the right will do it.  Craig recently suggested that having a cool dough might help--I will try this on my next bake.

The bigger ovens obviously have more thermal mass and that might make them more manageable when cooking a large volume of pies.  The most pies I have cooked out of the Andiamo was 12 and it can get quite interesting in managing the floor heat but it's just another fun skill to learn in addition to make a proper dough.

Until I get a chance to cook my dough in an Acunto or a Ferrara, I do not believe that the bigger ovens will make a significantly better pizza than the oven I am working with now.  I think with my current oven, with more practice and experience, I can come within striking distance, equal or maybe even surpass some of the outfits here in Atlanta that have WFOs.  I think I may have already surpassed the dough of one outfit in downtown Decatur that uses the same model Acunto as Craig is using.  Just to be clear, Craig and the Acunto are the perfect storm. Combine a master with the dough and ingredients and that oven and we see the consistently great pies on his posts.  

However I have to say that I feel that the wall that Scott is suggesting that I will hit is just something like the Maginot Line ;)  

Go ahead and purchase the oven that you think is right for you and start learning.  






Offline fornographer

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Re: Forno Bravo Andiamo or Forno Classico Piccolo
« Reply #33 on: July 16, 2012, 07:54:11 PM »
And these are the breakfast pizzas I cooked for my 8 month pregnant wife this past weekend.



scott123

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Re: Forno Bravo Andiamo or Forno Classico Piccolo
« Reply #34 on: July 16, 2012, 08:25:27 PM »
I could not discern, thanks to the pizzaiolos (they're friendly once you tell them you're an enthusiast and make your own pies in your own wfo) who let me check their ovens out with their infrared guns, a difference in the ratio between floor and dome heat between the smaller ovens (Andiamo) and the larger ones at the professional outfits in town.

It's not about temperature, it's about distance. When you halve the distance, you double the impact from infrared radiation (heat coming off the dome).
« Last Edit: July 16, 2012, 08:39:27 PM by scott123 »

scott123

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Re: Forno Bravo Andiamo or Forno Classico Piccolo
« Reply #35 on: July 16, 2012, 08:39:07 PM »
I may make a call to the city, namelessly, or ask the contractor that has done work on my house to ask for me.

Smart move- find out what the code says, but stay anonymous.

My grandfather was a union boss and later, a state senator, so when it comes to government officials, I have a hard time not being a bit wary.  I've also read through parts of the code that had less to do with safety and more to do with a particular company's product being ensured the market share or appeasing insurance companies. I also believe that code can frequently be heavy handed in order to counter the actions of a very small group of especially stupid people.

As far as I'm concerned, if you use your head, you generally don't need a building inspector- and especially not for little stuff like this.

Offline shuboyje

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Re: Forno Bravo Andiamo or Forno Classico Piccolo
« Reply #36 on: July 16, 2012, 10:41:00 PM »
John is right.  I could not discern, thanks to the pizzaiolos (they're friendly once you tell them you're an enthusiast and make your own pies in your own wfo) who let me check their ovens out with their infrared guns, a difference in the ratio between floor and dome heat between the smaller ovens (Andiamo) and the larger ones at the professional outfits in town. Those are Acuntos and Ferrara ovens that I checked out.  The main difference that I could discern is the distance between the pies and the fire as John said.  Then again one outfit was cooking their pies very close to the flame which is almost similar to the distance that you would expect from the Andiamo 70 or the Primavera 70.  If you want the leoparding that a lot of these bigger ovens have, having a long ferment (more than 24 hrs) and a flame that covers the entire span of the dome from the left to the right will do it.  Craig recently suggested that having a cool dough might help--I will try this on my next bake.

The bigger ovens obviously have more thermal mass and that might make them more manageable when cooking a large volume of pies.  The most pies I have cooked out of the Andiamo was 12 and it can get quite interesting in managing the floor heat but it's just another fun skill to learn in addition to make a proper dough.

Until I get a chance to cook my dough in an Acunto or a Ferrara, I do not believe that the bigger ovens will make a significantly better pizza than the oven I am working with now.  I think with my current oven, with more practice and experience, I can come within striking distance, equal or maybe even surpass some of the outfits here in Atlanta that have WFOs.  I think I may have already surpassed the dough of one outfit in downtown Decatur that uses the same model Acunto as Craig is using.  Just to be clear, Craig and the Acunto are the perfect storm. Combine a master with the dough and ingredients and that oven and we see the consistently great pies on his posts.  

However I have to say that I feel that the wall that Scott is suggesting that I will hit is just something like the Maginot Line ;)  

Go ahead and purchase the oven that you think is right for you and start learning.  







I have built a 30" and a 42" version of nearly the same oven.  Both with domes around 13", doors around 8", a tall soldier and a flat dome.  I built the 42" oven due to my frustrations with the 30".  I can now say without a doubt the 42" oven produces a better pie then the 30" in every way.  It is so much easier to bake in and achieve a consistent even bake in it is like night and day. 
-Jeff

Offline mikeyr

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Re: Forno Bravo Andiamo or Forno Classico Piccolo
« Reply #37 on: July 20, 2012, 07:13:42 PM »
I know the thread is a few weeks old but you may want to drive down to Santa Barbara and talk to Forno Classico and see the ovens.  They are pretty nice ovens, I would questions wheels on th Picollo just due to the weight on top of a fairly narrow stand that might be tippy but Giuseppe has done it.

 I have his bigger oven the 100 so I was not concerned about moving it :)

Offline mitchjg

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Re: Forno Bravo Andiamo or Forno Classico Piccolo
« Reply #38 on: July 20, 2012, 10:39:13 PM »
I know the thread is a few weeks old but you may want to drive down to Santa Barbara and talk to Forno Classico and see the ovens.  They are pretty nice ovens, I would questions wheels on th Picollo just due to the weight on top of a fairly narrow stand that might be tippy but Giuseppe has done it.

 I have his bigger oven the 100 so I was not concerned about moving it :)

I had definitely considered that.  But, I wrote a note to ask if they would be on wheels for me.  Giuseppe responded: "The Piccolo  is a heavy duty oven and with the stand weighs around around 600 lbs.  For this reason, we do not provide or recommend wheels."

So, I don't think I can work with it.

Thanks for trying to help.

- Mitch
Mitch

Offline BrickStoneOven

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Re: Forno Bravo Andiamo or Forno Classico Piccolo
« Reply #39 on: July 21, 2012, 06:22:17 PM »
I don't see why they couldn't put it on a stand with wheels. Mine was and it was probably in the 1200lbs range.

Offline dellavecchia

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Re: Forno Bravo Andiamo or Forno Classico Piccolo
« Reply #40 on: July 21, 2012, 07:35:46 PM »
But, I wrote a note to ask if they would be on wheels for me.  Giuseppe responded: "The Piccolo  is a heavy duty oven and with the stand weighs around around 600 lbs.  For this reason, we do not provide or recommend wheels."

Stefano Ferrara ovens weigh 4000lbs and they come on wheels.

John

Offline shuboyje

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Re: Forno Bravo Andiamo or Forno Classico Piccolo
« Reply #41 on: July 22, 2012, 12:57:03 AM »
My oven weighs around 3000 pounds and is also on wheels.  I did however design the stand with special considerations.  I made the "wheelbase" as wide as possible and used very high grade industrial casters rated for the load.  I also eliminated the concrete slab by building on a very rigid metal base saving over 1000 pounds of weight.  This all resulted in an oven I can move by myself rather easily.
-Jeff


Offline mitchjg

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Re: Forno Bravo Andiamo or Forno Classico Piccolo
« Reply #42 on: July 22, 2012, 05:26:58 PM »
Hi All:

I am still comparing the Forno Bravo Andiamo vs. the FGM 700C.  From what I am learning the 700C is made tougher, stronger, better.  The wall and floor are 3 inch vs 2 inch, the door is insulated and a few other things that were pointed out.

IF I get the FGM (which is where I am leaning) I am still confused about the raised floor option.  Scott123 pointed out that the door height for the 700C seemed way to high relative to the dome height.  If I get the raised option the dome will be higher but the door relative to the dome will be improved.

If I understand the comments made by Scott, although neither is perfect, I would be better off with the lower dome.  That way the inside height is about 8 1/2 and the door the same, vs. an inside height of 11 1/2 with a door of 8 1/2 (assuming I am reading the specs right).

I would not be able to have as much versatility for non-pizza cooking with the lower one but I do not have a sense as to how important 8 1/2 vs 11 1/2 is for non-pizza. 

All comments and guidance welcome.  You people are great and I have very much appreciated your helpfulness.

- Mitch
Mitch

Offline BrickStoneOven

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Re: Forno Bravo Andiamo or Forno Classico Piccolo
« Reply #43 on: July 22, 2012, 06:14:57 PM »
You don't need the raised floor. The stock 11.5" dome is fine, I don't know where people are getting the idea of having the lowest dome possible is best and that 9" is perfect. Is a low dome important for Neapolitan pizza, yes, but to a certain extent. Look at any hand built Neapolitan oven their dome heights adjust depending on the diameter. There isn't just one height fits all.

The dome in my WFO is ~12.4" which is just about perfect for my size(~42"), the fact that the 700c is lower and smaller shows that FGM knows what they are doing. The diameter of the oven is going to be indicative to the dome height. Like Craig's oven, bigger diameter, higher dome, relative to the size.

It's not like Wood Stones with 47" ovens with 20"+ domes. Those things IMO are horrible along with Mugnaini/Valoriani ovens.

Offline Woodfiredovenpizzero

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Re: Forno Bravo Andiamo or Forno Classico Piccolo
« Reply #44 on: July 22, 2012, 09:49:04 PM »
Giuseppe wont recommend wheels because of liability issues but you can use scaffold wheels, they are rated for more that a couple thousand pounds.

Offline Mangia Pizza

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Re: Forno Bravo Andiamo or Forno Classico Piccolo
« Reply #45 on: July 25, 2012, 11:18:57 AM »
FWIW, I just received my Forno Piccolo and been using it for a week.

I am very happy with the experience of talking to Giuseppe, the custom details he did for me and the overall experience I have had making pizze napoletane.

Good luck with your choice......

Paolo
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scott123

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Re: Forno Bravo Andiamo or Forno Classico Piccolo
« Reply #46 on: July 26, 2012, 02:51:45 AM »
I don't know where people are getting the idea of having the lowest dome possible is best and that 9" is perfect.

I've been the one spreading that idea.  It was a knee jerk reaction from finally seeing a pre-fab oven (the FGM) with a low dome and, after seeing so many ovens with top/bottom heat issues, making the assumption that if low is good, then really low is better. I've since toned back my 9" cheerleading.  I like 9" and still recommend it, but until I see more results with 9", there's no reason why 12" can't perform just as well, if not better, in an oven of the appropriate diameter.

Mitch, if the higher dome gives you more versatility, go for it.

Offline mitchjg

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Re: Forno Bravo Andiamo or Forno Classico Piccolo
« Reply #47 on: July 29, 2012, 04:05:22 PM »
For what it is worth, I got more specifics from Antoine about the FGM.  In the standard one, the door height is 8 1/2 inches and the interior dome height is 9.8.  The raised floor option, makes it and 11 1/2 door height and an interior dome height of 12.8.

I have decided to go ahead with the FGM but I am still (terribly) indecisive about the raised option.

I think the pros of the standard height are: a bit shorter heating time, a bit less wood, potential for greater ease in even cooking at high temps, less money.

I think the pros of the raised height is: more versatility of what can be cooked (taller things through the door).  My tallest dutch oven is 8.0.  It seems like it would be about things like a large turkey, a tagine, beer can chicken, other taller things one may imagine.

 :'(  ???
Mitch

Offline RobynB

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Re: Forno Bravo Andiamo or Forno Classico Piccolo
« Reply #48 on: July 29, 2012, 06:53:59 PM »
Quote
It seems like it would be about things like a large turkey, a tagine, beer can chicken, other taller things one may imagine.

Specifically addressing your items:  I have the standard height 950 FGM, and I don't know if the extra 3" will give you enough height to make a significant difference for anything you just mentioned.  Maybe beer can chicken, I'm not real familiar with that.  A large turkey in a pan is taller than 12.8" in my experience and getting it through the door would definitely be a challenge, width-wise as well as height - and then managing it while it cooks will be tricky.  What's the width on the door on the smaller oven that you're looking at?  Because you'd need to get the turkey in roasting pan in through the door, and the door is going to be narrower as well as shorter than the inside of the oven.  And I guess it would depend on the tagine but I think you'd be tight even in the taller oven.  The two I just looked at on Amazon, you could probably fit the Emile Henry tagine but I'm not sure about the Le Creuset one. 

By the same token, I'm not sure you're sacrificing that much for Neapolitan pizza if you go with the taller oven.  I haven't cooked in the taller FGM but I have cooked in an Italian oven with a much higher ceiling and bigger opening than the FGM and it cooked beautifully.  It's a management issue more than a good/bad issue for a household oven, IMHO.  You're not putting in a restaurant oven that has to perform at maximum efficiency for a multitude of users, you can spend a little more time managing it if you need to, and you'll learn your own oven and how best to cook in it, and that trade-off for the versatility of the taller oven may be justified for you.  When we bought ours, we didn't have the taller option available so it was an easy decision.  If we had had to choose, I'm not sure we wouldn't have opted for the taller oven.  It would be nice to have, and my 950 is so efficient, I can't imagine loosing that much with the taller/bigger opening. 

I haven't gone back through this thread - have you looked at either actual oven in person?  I think that would really help, it's very hard to imagine the size without seeing it in reality. 

Offline mitchjg

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Re: Forno Bravo Andiamo or Forno Classico Piccolo
« Reply #49 on: July 29, 2012, 08:49:21 PM »
Specifically addressing your items:  I have the standard height 950 FGM, and I don't know if the extra 3" will give you enough height to make a significant difference for anything you just mentioned.  Maybe beer can chicken, I'm not real familiar with that.  A large turkey in a pan is taller than 12.8" in my experience and getting it through the door would definitely be a challenge, width-wise as well as height - and then managing it while it cooks will be tricky.  What's the width on the door on the smaller oven that you're looking at?  Because you'd need to get the turkey in roasting pan in through the door, and the door is going to be narrower as well as shorter than the inside of the oven.  And I guess it would depend on the tagine but I think you'd be tight even in the taller oven.  The two I just looked at on Amazon, you could probably fit the Emile Henry tagine but I'm not sure about the Le Creuset one. 

By the same token, I'm not sure you're sacrificing that much for Neapolitan pizza if you go with the taller oven.  I haven't cooked in the taller FGM but I have cooked in an Italian oven with a much higher ceiling and bigger opening than the FGM and it cooked beautifully.  It's a management issue more than a good/bad issue for a household oven, IMHO.  You're not putting in a restaurant oven that has to perform at maximum efficiency for a multitude of users, you can spend a little more time managing it if you need to, and you'll learn your own oven and how best to cook in it, and that trade-off for the versatility of the taller oven may be justified for you.  When we bought ours, we didn't have the taller option available so it was an easy decision.  If we had had to choose, I'm not sure we wouldn't have opted for the taller oven.  It would be nice to have, and my 950 is so efficient, I can't imagine loosing that much with the taller/bigger opening. 

I haven't gone back through this thread - have you looked at either actual oven in person?  I think that would really help, it's very hard to imagine the size without seeing it in reality. 

Hi Robyn:

The door size in the 700c is 17 X 8 1/2.  The interior max height is 9.8 inches.  From the website for Bread Stone Ovens, the dimensions of your 950C are:

Weight 925 lb
Total Height   16″
Inside Height 9″1/2
Cooking Surface 7.5 square feet
Wall Thickness 3″1/8
Door Opening   17″ wide x 8″1/2 high or 11"1/2 high with the raised option

So, the door dimensions are the same and the interior max height is the same.  Although the height is the same yours is much bigger 7.5 square feet of cooking area vs 4.0.  So, I can imagine that the interior height of the 700c is drops down faster, etc.

So, assuming your door measures this way - 17 X 8 1/2, then you can say if you have ever felt restricted by that!

No, I have not seen them in person.  I am in California and the oven is on the east coast.

- Mitch
Mitch


 

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