Author Topic: Ratio for top and bottom oven temperatures  (Read 4213 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline jamieg

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 133
  • Location: Medellin, Colombia
Re: Ratio for top and bottom oven temperatures
« Reply #20 on: July 18, 2012, 12:28:52 AM »
clay oven with side on heat


Offline jamieg

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 133
  • Location: Medellin, Colombia
Re: Ratio for top and bottom oven temperatures
« Reply #21 on: July 18, 2012, 12:29:42 AM »
pizza from clay oven...

Offline jamieg

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 133
  • Location: Medellin, Colombia
Re: Ratio for top and bottom oven temperatures
« Reply #22 on: July 18, 2012, 12:30:23 AM »
new oven...

Offline jamieg

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 133
  • Location: Medellin, Colombia
Re: Ratio for top and bottom oven temperatures
« Reply #23 on: July 18, 2012, 12:31:01 AM »
pizza from new oven...

Online scott123

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 6339
Re: Ratio for top and bottom oven temperatures
« Reply #24 on: July 20, 2012, 07:58:45 PM »
Jamie, thanks for answering the questions and posting the pics. It's slow going, but I think we are beginning to figure some things out.

First off, it's really hard to tell from the photo, but it looks a lot like your stone hearths are made from marble.  Marble has very little resistance to thermal shock, and, in oven settings, can be dangerous.  If it is marble, DO NOT bake with it.  If you're having trouble identifying it, remove a stone from the oven and take a close up photo.

I've never seen a deck oven produce a Neapolitan pizza.  I've seen plenty of deck ovens with specs that, in theory, could produce Neapolitan, but either the specs are not quite truthful or the balance of heat is off.  You're going to find different opinions on this, but, imo, there's nothing worse than Neapolitan pizza that's bake for 2-4 minutes. If you've got an oven that's specifically engineered for 4 minute NY bakes, that's what you should be using it for.  You should embrace NY style completely and use sugar and oil in your recipe.

The elevation is an important factor.  We have a couple prominent members baking at higher elevations.  If I can recall correctly, member Jackie Tran (Chau) is at a similar elevation to you and felt that about a 4% increase in hydration was necessary to compensate for elevation. So, roughly speaking, you've got my recommended 5% bump for the dry flour and 4% for elevation.  That should still only put you in the 69% realm.

The reason I bring this up is that the yellow is a classic sign of excess bench flour (as has been discussed). What hasn't been discussed, though, is that, as you increase the hydration, you also have to increase the bench flour to make it manageable.   Out of every possible culprit, I'm reasonably certain the yellowing is coming from excess bench flour, which is caused by too much water in the dough.  77% is just overkill.  There's not a Neapolitan or NY style pizzeria working anywhere near that. As I said before, dough should be impossible to stir.  It should also, on a commercial level be difficult to fold as well.  Once you get the hang of the new oven and you want to play around with more extreme hydrations, go for it, but, until then, I highly suggest something more sensible- 66-68%.

Quote
If I try to go as low as 64% - its very difficult to get all the flour to mix with the water.


Stop adding the water in stages. Add all the water to the bowl, then oil, then yeast. In another bowl, combine all the dry ingredients. Dry into wet. Mix until well incorporate and knead about 2 minutes. That's it.

Quote
The balls stay refridgerated for between 24 to 72 hours.


A dough that's optimized for 24 hours will be overfermented in 72 and a dough that's ready in 72 will be underfermented in 24.  You should be making dough that is ready on a single day- a 12h our window, max.  Use enough yeast so that the dough just doubles in that time frame.

An infrared thermometer is an essential tool for the deck oven owner. Here's a reasonably priced one that has a range of NY style temps:

http://www.dealextreme.com/p/1-2-lcd-digital-infrared-thermometer-orange-black-123695?item=8

If you want something for the clay oven or another wood fired environment, then you'll want to spend the money and get a higher temp model like this:

http://www.dealextreme.com/p/gm700-1-5-lcd-non-contact-infrared-thermometer-yellow-black-1-x-9v-104614?item=32

Btw, the clay oven pie looks quite impressive.  There's no way that you can use clay in a restaurant setting?

Offline jamieg

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 133
  • Location: Medellin, Colombia
Re: Ratio for top and bottom oven temperatures
« Reply #25 on: July 25, 2012, 11:19:05 PM »
Hi Scott,

As always - thanks for your interest.

Iím pretty sure the the new oven floor is NOT marble - although I admit the photo makes it look as though it is. I will take a close up photo tomorrow.

When talking about cooking Neapolitan pizza in a deck oven - what do you mean by the Ďbalance of heat is offí?

In terms of specs Iím quietly confident that the deck oven can get to 500c - and I think itís going to be quite easy to raise the brick floor - which I assume will give me more sideways heat and thus help with my persuit of leopard spots. But, perhaps, Iím missing something else.

Iíve already embraced NY pizza in so far as I use dry mozzarella, my flour is not caputo, all my customers eat by the slice with their hands and I like to hear a crunch when I cut the pizza. However, I prefer light toppings and a big nobbly, speckly crust full of air bubbles.

What would be the main effects of adding sugar and oil to the dough recipe?

I think you make a good argument for going down to 69% hydration. I will change the recipe and weíll see. It will be fantastic if that means I use less flour and can cook at higher temperatures. Arguments aside, Iím still concerned that - if I look at the way my dough handles at 69% hydration - it seems very dry compared to many of the videos and photos I have seen online. For example, Varasanos recepe which is around 65% looks much much wetter than my dough at 75% hydration: http://www.varasanos.com/PizzaRecipe.htm

In terms of optimizing dough for 12 hours - I donít understand how that works in a restaurant setting. What happens to the dough that we donít sell on that same day? On any given day - if sales are lower than expected we might have 40 dough balls that go unused. Do you just re-ball the unused balls the next day?

At the moment, my dough rests for 8 hours and is then balled and refridgerated. During the next 3 days the balls are in the following state:
     24 hours - we take the balls out of the fridge a few hours before using them
     48 hours - the balls are usually in a perfect state and can be used straight from the fridge
     72 hours - the balls have risen slightly too much - but itís manageable.

Of course, the problem I have is that the room temperature for the bulk rise varies a lot - and on a hot day - it causes the subsequent dough balls to rise too quickly.  I think that I will have to monitor the room temperature and have 3 slightly different recipes to manage this problem in the future.

Thanks for the info on the thermometers. I definately need one.

Unfortunately, the clay oven is due to be destroyed in the next fews days - but hopefully - by raising the floor of the deck oven I will be able to replicate the same style of leoparding.

Thanks again :-)
« Last Edit: July 25, 2012, 11:23:37 PM by jamieg »

Online scott123

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 6339
Re: Ratio for top and bottom oven temperatures
« Reply #26 on: July 26, 2012, 12:22:48 AM »
Jamie,

If you're going to put out the best and most consistent pizza possible, you can't make dough twice a week.  That's just not how pizza works.  You could, in theory, make 3 batches of dough and ferment them at 3 different temps, each with a different target day, but it would take incredibly precise temperatures and an enormous amount of experimentation and, even then, your end product wouldn't be consistent enough. You'd be basically be selling 3 different products- and that wouldn't be fair to your customers.

You need to develop a dough that's ready in a set number of days.  For sake of argument, let's say you've perfected your dough for 2 days.  This means that, on Monday, you're making the dough for Wednesday, on Tuesday, you make the dough for Thursday, and so on, and so on.  If you have happened to make too much, you toss it in the fridge and use those dough balls the first thing the next day- with an appropriate temper- you should never use dough straight from the fridge. Eventually, you should get to a point where you can more easily predict your sales, end up with less surplus and subject fewer of your next day customers with less than ideal dough.

Your flour might give you more enzyme activity than Italian flour, which, in turn, might encourage leoparding at lower temps, but, typically, leoparding requires 450C on a firebrick hearth and a ceiling of at least 550C.  If your hearth is cordierite (typical for deck ovens), then that requires an even lower temperature for the hearth- 400C.  You can get these very different temps in a clay oven with a fire blasting the ceiling, but in a deck oven, with electric elements, a 400C deg. hearth and a 550C deg. ceiling is close to impossible.

When I talk about heat balance issues, this is what I'm referring to- the fact that getting extreme ceiling temps, but far less extreme hearth temps is pretty much impossible in this kind of oven.

There's also the issue that, even though these ovens have thermostats that will allow them to hit 500, there's a very good chance that they're not insulated for continuous use at these kind of extreme temps, and that running them this high will cause them to fail prematurely. Just because you can run this oven at 500, doesn't necessarily mean that you should.

Jeff Varasano worked extensively with Swedish oven manufacturer Pizzamaster to develop an electric oven that can safely reach much higher temps than your normal electric deck oven- and even he can't achieve the kind of leoparding you were getting with your clay oven.

I'm not a big believer in the marketability of quasi-Neapolitan pizza.  You either have the equipment that will give you leoparding, or you don't, and, if you don't, your goal should be a 4 minute NY pie. Your clay oven pie is gorgeous.  If this oven could produce that, you could sell a boatload of those pies. Unfortunately, it can't.  The margherita you've posted a photo of?  You're not selling many of those, and that's going to be close to the shortest bake time this oven can give you.

Oil provides tenderness, crispiness, improved browning and some flavor.  Oil doesn't work at all in Neapolitan, but, as you get into NY bake times, it's essential.  It just makes for a better pizza. Sugar helps with browning as well, and, with your seemingly unmalted flour, is also important in the context of a NY style bake time.

The dough in Jeff's photo is well above 65%. In his caption, he says it's 'at least 65%.'  From the way the dough almost pours, it's got to be at least 72%, imo.  Certain home bakers work in this realm, but on a commercial level, especially if you're having potential problems with bench flour, you should be working with considerably less water than the dough in that photo.

Take photos of your dough- post mixing, post balling and post fermentation. Include shots of the bottom of the dough so we can see the level of fermentation you're reaching.

Offline jamieg

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 133
  • Location: Medellin, Colombia
Re: Ratio for top and bottom oven temperatures
« Reply #27 on: July 27, 2012, 01:01:41 AM »
Hi Scott,

Today, we had some dramatic developments regarding the new deck oven. Having finally arrived from China, the oven was tested in-store and after a short period of time the door and the exterior metal casing burnt quite significantly. The company who imported the oven have declared it dangerous and now want to modify it so it cannot go above 300c on the top or the bottom. We will obviously be refunded - but feel quite embarressed to have been convinced to make the purchase some 5 months ago - and are now back to square one in terms of finding a new oven. Your argument has stood the test of time. Iím tempted to think about a WFO - but it seems like a big step into the unknown.

In terms of dough fermentation - I think I wasní t very clear. We do make dough everyday - before opening the restaurant at 5:00pm. The dough is designed to be ready for use the following day.

For example, if itís Saturday - and we need 100 dough balls for Saturday - and we have 100 dough balls ready to use - we simply make the required amount for Sunday - which is 50. But, if we have 120 dough balls in the fridge - we would make the required amount for Sunday, minus the 20 that are in excess. So, we would make 30 for Sunday.

The problem of managing the lifespan of dough is amplified by the fact that on Saturday - we make the dough for Sunday - BEFORE we know how many balls we will sell on Saturday. Ideally, we would make the dough for Sunday - once we have finished sales for Saturday - so we can take into account how many of Saturdays 100 dough balls we didnít sell. But, having closed the kitchen - we donít always have time.

So, thatís why we have the strategy of making dough balls which can last up to 3 days.

Look at the following nightmare situation:

Saturday
I need 100 dough balls for Saturday.
I have a 100 dough balls which were made on Friday. Perfect.
I make the Ďworst case scenarioí amount for Sunday, i.e. 50.
But, we only sell 60 dough balls on Saturday.

Sunday
I need 50 dough balls for Sunday.
I have 50 + the 40 dough balls that we didnít sell on Saturday.
I make the Ďworse case scenarioí amount for Monday, i.e. 50 - minus the number we have in excess which is 40.  So, I only make 10 dough balls.
We only sell 30 dough balls on Sunday.

Monday
We have the follow dough balls -
(72 hours) 10 dough balls made on Friday to be sold on Saturday
(48 hours) 30 dough balls made on Saturday to be sold on Sunday
(24 hours) 10 dough balls made on Sunday for Monday

This scenario isn't the norm.  Usually, we're quite good at predicting the sales - but it happens occasionally. Initially, I though this was a good strategy - especially after hearing so many comments about the importance of a long bulk rise - or a steady, slow fermentation. 

I will post photos of the dough in its various stages this week.

Thanks again.

Online scott123

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 6339
Re: Ratio for top and bottom oven temperatures
« Reply #28 on: July 27, 2012, 03:09:49 AM »
Jamie, I'm sorry to hear about your oven troubles.  Member Rodinbangkok recently posted a warning about the dangers of Chinese ovens:

http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,19832.msg194364.html#msg194364

While some of our members have had good luck with the Sage brand of Chinese countertops, quite a few members have had bad things to say about Chinese ovens in general.

It's kind of moot at this point, but, considering the price of marble in China and the poor build quality, I think these are marble hearths.

As much of a setback as this is, I get the feeling you'll be happier with a WFO.  From looking at your clay oven pizza, I think it's pretty obvious that Neapolitan is where your passion is.  I think you could have made good money with NY pies if the deck oven would have been built well, but I get the feeling that you'll be much more content with a WFO.

A WFO is daunting, but, after doing some googling, the good news is that at least two restaurants in Medellin have already built them, so we know it can done.

The big downside to a WFO is that, unless you want to spend a huge amount of money, I think purchasing a pre-assembled or pre-fabricated oven in Colombia is probably going to be cost prohibitive. You can look around and see if  As far as I can tell, your only option is to have one built.

From the reading I've done, firebricks can be hard to find where you are.  It looks like Forno Bravo has a handful of members in Colombia, one of which I think is in Medellin (Satan) and who appears to have an obscure source for firebricks.  I'd read through all these threads, join, if you're not already a member and contact these members privately.

http://www.fornobravo.com/forum/f3/satan-likes-hot-14738.html
http://www.fornobravo.com/forum/f2/newbie-seeking-advice-hybrid-oven-15435.html
http://www.fornobravo.com/forum/f2/looking-profesional-pizza-oven-designs-17587.html
http://www.fornobravo.com/forum/f6/why-do-i-still-feel-heat-2397.html

One thing to keep in mind should you talk to any of these people is that their experience will most likely be making high dome ovens.  Ideally, you want someone with low dome oven building experience.

This is nothing I'd ever suggest to a restaurant here in the states, but, if your building codes are lax enough, you might want to consider building a mortarless oven using firebricks and angle iron.  It's a relatively simple build and should give you solid Neapolitan leoparding:

http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,18944.0.html

There's one catch, though.  In a few hundred pizza a week setting, you'll have to check the angle iron every so often and make sure it's holding up.  You can build it so that it disassembles easily and you should be able to look inside and check the iron by eye.

The really beautiful thing about a mortarless set up is that, as long as you have access to the right materials, you don't need a mason or someone with oven building experience. 

Re; dough... having too much dough and using it the next day- acceptable.  Using it the day after- something to be avoided at all costs.  Your worst case scenario only involved 10 dough balls on that third day.  There's two approaches you can take that can help with this:

1. 10 dough balls is probably only a couple bucks worth of flour. Either toss it or find some charity you can donate the dough.

2. For people that are passionate about pizza/serious about dough, it's a fairly common practice to make a certain amount of dough balls, and, if you run out before the night is over, you close shop.  This is something that I feel is abused by some places attempting to make themselves look more popular than they are, and, in certain markets, this kind of behavior will enrage customers, but, as a last resort, once in while, it's not the end of the world

Is the clay oven no more? Any chance of converting it from gas to wood? Would there be a way of adding a second burner to the clay oven and upping the btus?
« Last Edit: July 27, 2012, 03:34:31 AM by scott123 »

Offline jamieg

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 133
  • Location: Medellin, Colombia
Re: Ratio for top and bottom oven temperatures
« Reply #29 on: August 01, 2012, 01:27:03 PM »
Hi Scott,

All things considered, I think the best plan of action is to build another clay oven - albiet one much bigger - to accommodate up to 6 pizzas and the gas burners. If we have any doubts about the temperature - as you say - we can just add more burners.

I love the idea of a WFO but I have my doubts as to whether I can leave it in the hands of 10 different members of staff. Using gas makes things slightly less complicated.

The problem with our existing gas oven - is that we use the gas burners to heat the floor for about an hour - before blocking them off with 2 thick iron walls. Unfortunately, with this design the gas burners take up a large amount of the oven - more than a third. It would be great to change the design - so that having heated the floor - we can move the gas burners - just as when heating a WFO - the fire gets moved once the floor is hot.

Our gas burners create an enourmous flame - very similar to something you would see in a WFO.  Luckily, gas is very very cheap in Colombia. Perhaps, there is an argument for having a deck style heating system above and below the floor - with something on the side to guarentee leaoparding - I donít really know the pros and cons.

In our existing oven - we have an internal metal structure which we had to cover with heat resistant concrete - to prevent it from being destroyed. This is still an option - though the ideal would be to be clear about the design - and find a skilled oven maker and thus do away with the metal structure.

We have firebricks which seem to work very well - though I have nothing to compare them to. The only issue weíve had is because the size of the bricks is so small - there are alot of crevices which get filled with burnt flour over time. I guess we can solve this by using a dryer dough/less flour - by filling the holes with heat resistent cement - or just be sourcing bigger bricks.

At the moment, we are clutching at straws in terms of the basic characteristics of a good oven, i.e. chimmney position, door size, ceiling height, etc. I am frequently bewitched by contradictions, for example, if you recommend a low ceiling height - why are all Neapolitan style ovens high dome?

Btw, I have switched to making dough at the end of the night shift. Any dough balls we do not use the following evening - are used for pita and focacha bread - which obvioulsy take a hit in quality - but the focus for now is on the pizza. Things have improved alot insofar as weíre much more likely to be using a dough ball when itís at itís peak.

Hope to post videos/photos of dough, etc. soon.

Thanks for the research on WFOs in Colombia.  I will follow it up.

If you ever fancy a trip to Colombia - you can eat all the pizza you want :-)
« Last Edit: August 01, 2012, 01:36:02 PM by jamieg »


Offline SinoChef

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 247
  • Not delivery ha ....OMG you.... Digiornoed me
Re: Ratio for top and bottom oven temperatures
« Reply #30 on: August 01, 2012, 04:38:25 PM »
Quote
quite a few members have had bad things to say about Chinese ovens in general.


You can add me to that list now. >:( I was just going to pm Scott with the same question about ratio of top to bottom. I am working with a Chinese made oven as well.

http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,18793.msg194653.html#msg194653

It is a great little oven if pizza is an option on your menu. But when it is your menu. You would need about 6 of them. I am learning. did your purchase look anything like this?

http://www.alibaba.com/product-gs/398397522/Commercial_Electric_Stone_Pizza_Oven.html?s=p

Quote
the oven was tested in-store and after a short period of time the door and the exterior metal casing burnt quite significantly. The company who imported the oven have declared it dangerous and now want to modify it so it cannot go above 300c on the top or the bottom. We will obviously be refunded - but feel quite embarrassed to have been convinced to make the purchase some 5 months ago


I have bought 3 pizza ovens here. all "look" exactly the same. But as the door burnt on my last purchase. I am learning they are not all the same. First one I bought had a seem, with some kind of fire retardant rope product that sealed the door nicely, and kept the heat in. This last one, No seal,just blows out the door. I can not keep heat in. I had a very embarrassing night, tonight.

All have been electric also. So 3 pizzas and it is exhausted. People are not interested in waiting for the stone to rebound, or 30 minute pizzas, so I am just cranking it up to 500 c, and shutting it back down after I see the semolina burn. It's like trying to do a perfected steak, with an electric stove.

So, probably a useless question with out any accurate temp info. The elements on the top are also going to help with the heating of the bottom stone? 3 rounds of pizzas are blocking the top elements, and this is going to drop the stone temp,(with electric) to the point of where I am poaching the pizzas.

1rst pizza out is epic, 2nd is excellent, 3rd is not so bad, 4rth I am depressed.

I am "hijacking" the thread. But  I prefer the term sharing. As I would have had the same title.  :)

If you want the char and leoparding , I would pass on the Chinese. They are not building to that standard. Currently. This oven I had my hands on in a showroom, and was quite impressed.

http://gzwellborn.en.china.cn/selling-leads/detail,1068829980,Pizza-Oven-baking-equipment-food-machinery-hotel-equipment.html

It was the door. The difference between shutting the door on a 92 corolla, or a new Mercedes. I passed on it because it was about a 4 inch gap, and I need to make bread with these also.

Anyways. In my opinion, I am useless with an electric pizza oven.Does not matter where its made. Ruth Chris does not use electric stoves to cook their steaks.

Or I can contact the manufacture, and order a second stone to stack on to the first one?

as I said, just a bad night for me....


Offline shuboyje

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 1003
  • Location: Detroit
Re: Ratio for top and bottom oven temperatures
« Reply #31 on: August 01, 2012, 06:28:56 PM »
Not sure where you found Neapolitan ovens with high domes, but they are the origin of the low dome oven.  Are you possibly confusing some other type of oven with Neapolitan ovens?

When it comes to dome height, my advice is always to pair it to your bake time, and for you in a commercial setting that is even more important.  What bake time are you shooting for?  The dome height controls the amount of heat cooking the top of the pie.  The shorter the bake time, the more heat you need to cook the top in that shorter time, so you need a lower dome.  If the dome is too high you are forced to manipulate the pie more to get an even bake, and in a commercial setting especially this can become cumbersome.  In the opposite situation where you have too much top heat you can simply have less flame in the oven to reduce the top heat.  Much easier to manage.  This is why a low dome is ideal.
-Jeff

Offline jamieg

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 133
  • Location: Medellin, Colombia
Re: Ratio for top and bottom oven temperatures
« Reply #32 on: August 02, 2012, 12:09:36 AM »
I guess I've always seen them as high-dome compared to a deck oven.

This dome looks relatively high to me.
http://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=10150866945793323&set=o.170752802965950&type=3&theater

I agree totally with your logic in terms of low dome being better.

Thanks to the dryer dough - I've started cooking pizzas in exactly 2 minutes (no longer pre-cooking the bases) in my existing clay oven.

The height is about 60cm (very rough guess) at its highest point.  

Is there a standard height for neapolitan ovens?

Offline BrickStoneOven

  • Lifetime Member
  • *
  • Posts: 1586
  • Location: Boston
Re: Ratio for top and bottom oven temperatures
« Reply #33 on: August 02, 2012, 10:34:47 AM »
I guess I've always seen them as high-dome compared to a deck oven.

This dome looks relatively high to me.
http://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=10150866945793323&set=o.170752802965950&type=3&theater

I agree totally with your logic in terms of low dome being better.

Thanks to the dryer dough - I've started cooking pizzas in exactly 2 minutes (no longer pre-cooking the bases) in my existing clay oven.

The height is about 60cm (very rough guess) at its highest point.  

Is there a standard height for neapolitan ovens?


A few things. I might be wrong but when you posted that link to the UPN oven, you do know that the interior dome height is about a foot or more lower than that exterior right. The reason they have that "big head" is because of the way the chimney is vented. Here's a video of Paulie Gees oven interior which shows how low it is, which is about 15"-16" for that size oven(120cm, someone correct me if I'm wrong.)
<a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MqQzYkl2qDI" target="_blank" class="aeva_link bbc_link new_win">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MqQzYkl2qDI</a>
. The height of each oven is determined by the interior diameter, so a 130cm oven isn't going to have the same height as their 90cm.

When you said the 60cm height is that to a WFO or a deck oven? If it's a WFO and the high point of the dome is 60cm(23.62") then that is a good 7"-8" higher than a Neapolitan oven. That height is more like what you would see in a Wood Stone, Mugnaini/Valoriani, Pavesi, Forno Bravo ex.

Offline jamieg

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 133
  • Location: Medellin, Colombia
Re: Ratio for top and bottom oven temperatures
« Reply #34 on: August 02, 2012, 02:49:18 PM »
Thanks, Brickstone. Great information.

Actually, I was way off. My existing clay oven has the following internal dimensiones:

42cm height
75cm depth
145cm width

I have no idea if this is good or bad - we took a random guess when doing the design very hastily.

It is not a deck oven. Itís made of clay and supposed to function like a WFO - although we use gas burners.

The ovenís height remains the same from front to back, i.e. the front and back walls of the oven go straight up instead of curving. The only reason for this is because it was easier to build with only the left and right walls being curved. Presumably, this is not ideal and all the walls should be curved.

I guess to get a good understanding of the best ratio between oven height and the overall size I can scan the market and take an average - as will be the case with the chimney size, position, etc.

Thanks again,

jamie

Offline Chicago Bob

  • Lifetime Member
  • *
  • Posts: 8931
  • Location: North Carolina
  • Easy peazzy
Re: Ratio for top and bottom oven temperatures
« Reply #35 on: August 02, 2012, 03:25:04 PM »
I'm having a hard time with all the cm talk friends....is this a new secret society ya'll start'in?   ;D
"Care Free Highway...let me slip away on you"

Offline BrickStoneOven

  • Lifetime Member
  • *
  • Posts: 1586
  • Location: Boston
Re: Ratio for top and bottom oven temperatures
« Reply #36 on: August 02, 2012, 04:06:58 PM »
Thanks, Brickstone. Great information.

Actually, I was way off. My existing clay oven has the following internal dimensiones:

42cm height
75cm depth
145cm width

I have no idea if this is good or bad - we took a random guess when doing the design very hastily.

It is not a deck oven. Itís made of clay and supposed to function like a WFO - although we use gas burners.

The ovenís height remains the same from front to back, i.e. the front and back walls of the oven go straight up instead of curving. The only reason for this is because it was easier to build with only the left and right walls being curved. Presumably, this is not ideal and all the walls should be curved.

I guess to get a good understanding of the best ratio between oven height and the overall size I can scan the market and take an average - as will be the case with the chimney size, position, etc.

Thanks again,

jamie
From what your describing it sounds like a barrel vault oven like Tom's(Tscarborough).

I'm having a hard time with all the cm talk friends....is this a new secret society ya'll start'in?   ;D
He's from South America. We're the only country in the world who don't use the metric system.

Offline Chicago Bob

  • Lifetime Member
  • *
  • Posts: 8931
  • Location: North Carolina
  • Easy peazzy
Re: Ratio for top and bottom oven temperatures
« Reply #37 on: August 02, 2012, 04:55:21 PM »
From what your describing it sounds like a barrel vault oven like Tom's(Tscarborough).
He's from South America. We're the only country in the world who don't use the metric system.
I know, but those Columbian's are pretty smart people....maybe he'll help out a dumb 'ol American here on his antiquated 'ol American forum....
"Care Free Highway...let me slip away on you"

Offline shuboyje

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 1003
  • Location: Detroit
Re: Ratio for top and bottom oven temperatures
« Reply #38 on: August 02, 2012, 08:36:16 PM »
So the oven is 29" x 57" with a 16.5" dome height.

For a 2 minute bake I think that dome height is pretty good.  The only thing I'll say is that my input is based on a wood fired oven.  With a gas fire you tend to have less top heat and therefore may be better suited with a lower dome.  I also feel the need to mention the safety concerns with a home build gas fired oven.  I hope your current clay oven is equipped  with a flame failure device for safety, but if it is not it is something the new oven needs to have.

How many pizzas at a time do you tend to bake?  It seems like the long narrow shape of your clay oven with the burner on the side would leave you with uneven temperatures.
-Jeff

Offline The Dough Doctor

  • Tom Lehmann
  • Lifetime Member
  • *
  • Posts: 848
  • Location: Manhattan, KS
Re: Ratio for top and bottom oven temperatures
« Reply #39 on: August 03, 2012, 08:50:25 AM »
Jamie;
The use of just a small amount of sugar will help to "jump start" the browning reaction. You are correct in that too much sugar will result in the development of an unwanted uniformly brown colored crust, but with just a small amount of sugar, about 1 to 1.5%, you should be able to get the browning reaction started without excessive color development.
Tom Lehmann/The Dough Doctor