Author Topic: 7up Pizza - made it last night ( images included )  (Read 5640 times)

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Offline canadianbacon

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7up Pizza - made it last night ( images included )
« on: October 27, 2005, 11:42:55 AM »
Hi guys,  before I begin, for anyone wanting to see images go here : http://tinyurl.com/9zuxo

Last night I made some pizza. I used Peter's recipe, ... sort of.... I used all the ingredients in his recipe,
but substituted the 1 cup of water for 1 cup of 7up.

I followed his method exactly, stoping to read what he wrote, and then doing what it said.  I searched yesterday
again for bread flour and couldn't find any, but upon returning home, my wife informed me that I had bread flour under one
of the counters, ( which I bought last year - doh ! )

Anyway, to sum up, I made 2 batches of this dough.  The kids were hungry, so made one batch, and used 1/2 of it right away.  I put the other half in an oiled bowl and into the fridge it went.  While the first pizza was in the oven, I made another batch, and later on oiled another larger bowl and put that into the fridge.

The first thing I noticed - the dough is much different than the one I make.  It's got to be the bread flour that is doing this, as the texture of the dough is *completely* different.  It was almost like rubber.  Oh and jus as Peter said, - it didn't stick to the bowl at all after it got through its inital mixing.

Anyway the full batch I have in the fridge at this moment, and I'll use that tomorrow (Friday ), as I want it to "age" a full 48 hours.

I brought out the other 1/2 of the first batch I made last night, and have it warming up, so I can use it this afternoon.

I want to see the diff between almost 24 hours and a 48 hour dough.

Now, - to be fair to the recipe, I will be making another batch with *WATER* as Peter recipe suggests.

Anyway check out the images.  I took a lot of them, and many I cropped for closeup, so there are plenty of images.

......

Why the 7up ? ..... well in Montreal, from what I have heard, and also had this confirmed the other day, ALL independant, privately owned pizza places use 7up or gingerale in their recipes.

Now, they don't use 100% 7up or gingerale, but it is part of the recipe, but I don't know how much ? ... perhaps it's 25% of the total liquid.

Anyway, one girl on another group, worked in 2 pizza places in Ontario Canada, and told me that they used used either 7up or gingerale. ( something I had been told a LONG time ago ( about 15 years ago ) in Montreal by a pizza guy ).

The girl ( pizza maker ) told me that they use this to give flavour to the dough.  She also said that she's pretty sure many privately owned pizzerias in the United States also use either 7up or gingerale in their dough.

I've yet to ever see this mentioned in a recipe, but have come across many recipes in French that have 7up included as part of the liquid.

Anyway it's an interesting thing.

So if I'm being pure, - yes, I know that Peter's recipe doesn't use 7up or gingerale, but I guess I wanted to use his recipe, and also use the 7up in these first test batches.

Oh, and no.... last night I didn't find any taste difference with the added 7up, even at 100% of the liquid ! ( excluding the olive oil ).

Anyway I want to be true to Peter's recipe, and will try that this afternoon.

To be fair to the 7up and taste, I have to also try my own "just throw things in the mixer" recipe, and substitue all water for 7up, and then see if I taste a difference, which I can do also today.

Kind of neat making a bunch of doughs, and then tomorrow or Saturday making smaller "taster" sized pizzas to see
how they taste  ;D


You can see some images here:

http://tinyurl.com/9zuxo




( 7up / 7-up / Seven Up, added for keyword searching later )


Mark
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Re: 7up Pizza - made it last night ( images included )
« Reply #1 on: October 27, 2005, 01:18:08 PM »
Mark,

Thanks for all the nice photos.

As you prepare your next batch of dough, you may want to proof the yeast you use in a small amount of water, at around 105-115 degrees F. Your photos show that you are using the Fleischmann's traditional active dry yeast. That is not instant dry yeast (IDY) as nearly all the Lehmann dough recipes call for. So, you have to proof the Fleischmann's active dry yeast in water before adding it to the rest of the water called for by the recipe you plan to use. If you don't proof the active dry yeast, it will not perform as it should. I know that some pizza operators add active dry yeast directly to the flour, as you apparently did, but it is rare and I am not sure that the operators even know (or care) that the active dry yeast should be proofed in water before using. They may be relying on warm water or machine friction heat in conjunction with the water to effectively "proof" the yeast.

I am not sure which of the Lehmann recipes you used, but it looks like one that used more yeast than most of the Lehmann recipes call for. In your case, that might have been a plus since using 100% 7-Up as the liquid added a large amount of sugar (most likely high fructose corn syrup) to the dough. I'm sure that a good part of the 7-Up is sugar, quite possibly several teaspoons in a single cup of the 7-Up. Excessive sugar will actually degrade yeast performance by sucking out liquids from the yeast cells, by osmosis. One of the few ways to compensate for this is to use a lot of yeast (really a lot), on the theory that if part of the yeast is damaged, there may still be enough left to carry out its normal duties. To know how much 7-Up can be safely used, you would have to determine how much sugar there is in the 7-Up and determine the amount that can be used in relation to the flour in the dough without causing yeast damage.

It will be interesting to see how the refrigerated batch of dough turns out in light of the fact that you apparently didn't proof the ADY in water and you used a very high amount of sugar.

Peter

Offline canadianbacon

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Re: 7up Pizza - made it last night ( images included )
« Reply #2 on: October 27, 2005, 01:58:32 PM »
Hi Pete,

Thanks :-)

I'll go into more detail in another post, but for now, I'll tell you it's 1:47pm here, and I jus finished eating another small pizza with my daughter.  I made the 2nd 1/2
of the dough in the small container ( the other 1/2 is the one I ate last night - where the dough was rubber )

Anyway great news ! -- I brought this dough out about 9:35 am and left it on the counter.  Anyway when I took it out of the bowl, it was a totally new dough !, very pliable, and soft ! .... totally different from what I had put in there last night.

I am impressed with it, - it turned out well.

Ok on the yeast being added to the flour... darn I mus have mis-read your info.... I thought I had read that is what *you* do.... so I did the same thing.

What I always do, and have been doing for years, is I proof this yeast in my warm water..... so what I do is take 1 cup of water, heat it in the microwave for 30 seconds which makes it a nice temp for the dry yeast.  I take the warm water and pour it from cup right into my KA bowl.  I then pour in the tablespoon of yeast.... I then add a bit of sugar, - about a teaspoon, and then just a pinch of salt.

I then mix it around with a whisk and wait about 15 mins until it is frothy.  At that point I'll just start adding in my flour.

Hmm, ok so I guess that wasn't the way to do it then....... or.... perhaps, I did read that is what you did, but now I understand I'm using a different yeast.

I wonder what yeast you are using ... is it an actual yeast brick you are using ? ..... and you just cut a bit off with a knife ? .... hmm, I'm a bit lost on the type of yeast
you are using.

Anyway what's nice is that we are here to learn and you are helping us out.  Thanks agian for that  ;D

I have taken some images of the 2nd half of that dough, just to show ya,,, I'll get those ready and post them in a few mintues. ( give me 15 mins or so )

Anyway the dough was good, however ............. the 7 Up ? .... I think it's a waste..... I detected absolutely NO diference..... I don't detect anything at all in terms
of taste difference, so I won't be using it in other batches.  I did buy some gingerale which I'll experiment with, but after that is also gone, then I'll be back to using water.

In all honesty, I just can't see pizzerias using something expensive like 7up or Sprite or gingerale when water is what is so cheap.  I just can't see myself doing it either
if I owned a pizza joint.... urrr use water ? yup, and the cost is right. 

Anyway I will post some pix in a bit.

The other thing ? .... the sauce..... my sauce needs help.  I just bought some meatless spaghetti sauce, and added a tiny amount of cinnamon to it, and I use that,
but it just isn't right, .... the places around here use something that tastes more like tomato, more than a sauce for spaghetti that has been boiled down for hours....

Mark


Mark,


I know that some pizza operators add active dry yeast directly to the flour, as you apparently did, but it is rare and I am not sure that the operators even know (or care) that the active dry yeast should be proofed in water before using. They may be relying on warm water or machine friction heat in conjunction with the water to effectively "proof" the yeast.
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Offline canadianbacon

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Re: 7up Pizza - made it last night ( images included )
« Reply #3 on: October 27, 2005, 02:03:44 PM »
Hi again Peter,

The recipe I used was this one you posted:
http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,576.0.html

Post #1 on that topic.

High-gluten flour, 11.80 oz. (about 2 1/2 c.)
       Water, 7.70 oz. (about 1 c.) (about 65% hydration)
       IDY, 0.20 oz. (1 1/2 t.)
       Salt, 0.20 oz. (3/4 t.)
       Olive oil (light), 0.12 oz. (3/4 t.)
      Thickness factor (TF) = 0.10


Here's where I thought I understood what you meant about the yeast:

To prepare the dough, I first put the water and the salt in the bowl of my stand mixer and stirred them a bit. I then combined the flour and the IDY and added them all at once to the water in the bowl. 

Now that being said, I know know I'm using a different yeast, so this has me confused at the moment.

Anyway I will go get my images ready for upload now, and we hopfully can discuss this later when you have time.  I know when you tell me
what I did wrong I'll go "doh !  ;D
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Offline canadianbacon

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Re: 7up Pizza - made it last night ( images included )
« Reply #4 on: October 27, 2005, 02:33:51 PM »
Well, here are the images taken this afternoon.

Notice how nice the dough is after being in the fridge overnight - wowie !

http://tinyurl.com/85kc4

However, it never rised like yours did in those images you posted under the recipe I used.

oops, forgot to mention, I only used 1-1/2 teaspoons of yeast ( as per your recipe )

I usually use 1 tablespoon !  :D

Mark

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Re: 7up Pizza - made it last night ( images included )
« Reply #5 on: October 27, 2005, 02:41:11 PM »
Mark,

After posting the above reply, I did a Google search to get information on the amount of sugar in 7Up. The answer appears to be 39 grams of high fructose corn syrup for a 12-ounce can, or 26 grams for 8 fluid ounces (1 cup). That translates to 0.92 ounces for 8 fluid ounces of 7Up, or the equivalent of about 6 1/2 teaspoons of table sugar. Using 11.8 ounces of flour for baker's percent purposes (from the Lehmann reciipe you used), 0.92 ounces comes to about 7.8%. Above about 4-5%, you should be able to detect the sugar in the crust. Also, above that level, there is a good chance that yeast performance will be compromised. I estimate that you would have had to use maybe double or more the amount of yeast you used to compensate for the excessive amount of sugar. And, even then, I can't say whether the problem would be remedied.

I don't have conversion data for high fructose corn syrup, but I would estimate that only a fraction of a cup of 7Up (about 1/8 cup?)would be needed to provide 1% in sugar in a typical Lehmann dough recipe in which sugar is used.

From your photos, the yeast you used appears to be active dry yeast (ADY). That is a different form of yeast than instant dry yeast (IDY). IDY is a different strain of yeast and is more finely divided (smaller particle size) than ADY. And, unlike ADY, IDY can be added directly to the dry ingredients. ADY requires proofing in water and is not intended to be added directly to the dry ingredients. The way ADY is usually handled is to use a small part of the overall water (warmed to about 105-115 degrees F) to proof the ADY and, after proofing (which takes about 10 minutes or so), add the proofed yeast to the rest of the water. There is also a difference in quantity when using ADY instead of IDY. In the recipe you used, the amount of IDY (1 1/2 t.) converts to 2 1/4 t. ADY.

Peter

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Re: 7up Pizza - made it last night ( images included )
« Reply #6 on: October 27, 2005, 03:35:59 PM »
Mark,

It looks like our posts were crossing each other on the forum. However, I think all the relevant points have been made.

The brick of yeast you referenced is fresh yeast. Many pizza operators use it because it is usually cheaper for them, but it is not particularly convenient for home pizza makers because it doesn't store well and must be used within a short period of time, usually measured in days. Unless you can get fresh yeast in small quantities at a reasonable price from a baker, the better and more practical choice for home pizza makers is either ADY or IDY, both of which are in dry form, convenient to use, and can be stored (preferably in the freezer) for a long period of time. You might want to look into a source of IDY since it is the form that most of out members appear to be using. However, there is nothing wrong with ADY. You have to proof it, of course, and convert from IDY to ADY in recipes calling for IDY, but these steps are not a burden. I might mention that when I use ADY, I don't add sugar or salt to the proofing liquid along with the ADY. A pinch of sugar is OK but no more than that.

The reason your pizza crust didn't look like mine is that you dramatically altered the recipe by using the 7Up and the ADY, which was not proofed and was not in the correct amount. You should get results that look more like mine if you try the recipe again using the ingredients and related procedures. I might also add that the recipe you used was one of the first Lehmann recipes I developed. Since then, I have made many changes. I now add the flour/yeast mixture gradually to the water/salt mixture in the bowl. This is to improve the hydration. I have also gone to 63% hydration. And I now use considerably less yeast. As subsequent posts point out, the amount of yeast in the recipe you used was calculated incorrectly. The dough and crust will turn out fine with the higher amount of yeast, it just isn't needed. I now use around 0.25% by weight of flour. The dough behaves better in the refrigerator (by not rising as much or as fast) and is more in line with the way pizza operators manage their doughs that are to be cold fermented. You might find it useful to read some of the later posts to get a better idea as to the changes I made since the first post on the Lehmann thread. You might use the Lehmann Roadmap thread to zero in on a later recipe to try. The later recipes also do a better job with baker's percents and recitations of weights and volumes.

Peter
« Last Edit: October 27, 2005, 03:38:59 PM by Pete-zza »

Offline pftaylor

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Re: 7up Pizza - made it last night ( images included )
« Reply #7 on: October 27, 2005, 05:55:10 PM »
Bacon,
It is always a pleasure to read your posts. I have missed your compelling images of pizza and beer. It was a hot summer in Florida and I often thought about trying to make a homemade batch of brew to go along with Raquel.

Pie looks delicious by the way.
Pizza Raquel is Simply Everything You’d Want.
www.wood-firedpizza.com

Offline canadianbacon

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Re: 7up Pizza - made it last night ( images included )
« Reply #8 on: October 28, 2005, 12:12:16 PM »
Hi Peter ( I think it's Peter eh ?  :D )

Thanks for the kind words.  I got out of the pizza mode for awhile during summer so never posted, but with freezing temps here again, it's nice using the oven
to get some "free" heat.   Ahhh, Florida, I have been a few times and loved it there.  I even went to Key West, that was fun ! 

Anyway I'll keep on posting :-)

P.S. I just made a another mini batch ( 2-1/2 gallons) of "Winter What" - you can see just a few images here.
http://www.detroitgrillking.com/frosty/winterwheat/

or a very incomplete set of images here of another one I brewed this week - a Robust Porter, which will be good on cold winter nights,
with a ABV of about 7%.  http://www.detroitgrillking.com/frosty/robustporter/index.html

The last image shows the finished wort ( what it is before it turns to beer ) and also the hydrometer to the left of it, showing me the potential
alcohol it will produce and what the actual sugar content is in that wort.  Once that beer is done and transferred to the keg it will be crystal clear, like
a bottle of commercial beer off the shelf.  I use all grain to do beer as do all major breweries.

Tonight I'll be trying my 48 hour dough, and will post some pix, and of course because it's Friday, one must be drinking beer right ?  ;) so you will see some
pictures of some of my homecrafted beers, including a nice Porter I made over a month ago.  This one is so smooth and tasty, because of the use of an great
German chocolate malt called Carafa.  It gives the beautiful subtle taste of chocolate, but with no bitterness.

Anyway thanks again Peter.

I need to catch up and respond to Peter's other posts ( that's Pete-zzza Peter I'm talking about )  ;D

Here's another porter I made quite some time ago and is on tap on one of my brew stations.

Mark



Bacon,
It is always a pleasure to read your posts. I have missed your compelling images of pizza and beer. It was a hot summer in Florida and I often thought about trying to make a homemade batch of brew to go along with Raquel.

Pie looks delicious by the way.
« Last Edit: October 28, 2005, 12:17:35 PM by canadianbacon »
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Re: 7up Pizza - made it last night ( images included )
« Reply #9 on: October 29, 2005, 02:01:44 PM »
Hi guys,

Just a quick update....

I made another couple of pizzas last night and they turned out ok.

What you see is a dough that has been in the fridge for 48 hours.

You can see some images here: http://tinyurl.com/9y2u7
I'll try and keep these up for a few days.

or for the SAME images that will be there for a full 30 days, from today, you can also see them here:
http://www.sendpix.com/albums/05102910/e863t253xn/

I need a lot more practice, and have not got around to making Peter's *real* recipe, but will do so this week.
I was going to make it, but then realized that not everyone in the family wants to eat pizza for the next 3 days, so
have held off on it for the weekend.

Mark

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Re: 7up Pizza - made it last night ( images included )
« Reply #10 on: October 29, 2005, 02:31:37 PM »
Mark,

The photo of the dough with the big bubble is evidence of use of too much yeast or overfermentation. If this was one of the doughs with the 7Up, I would blame it more on the 7UP than too much yeast, although, as I mentioned previously, you can cut back quite a bit on the yeast and still get good results, as the later Lehmann recipes demonstrate.

Peter

Offline AKSteve

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Re: 7up Pizza - made it last night ( images included )
« Reply #11 on: October 29, 2005, 11:30:11 PM »
Since your other passion seems to be beer, why not try using that instead of 7-UP? I substituted 1 cup of Newcastle Brown for 1 cup of water once and I was really pleased with the results. It seemed to make my dough thicker & puffier, but without any really big air bubbles. They say beer is just liquid bread, so it seems like a good match for pizza.

Steve


 

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