Author Topic: Bulk rise vs balling  (Read 3243 times)

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Offline norma427

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Re: Bulk rise vs balling
« Reply #20 on: July 19, 2012, 11:01:59 AM »


I'm sure that Norma would be delighted if she could make a one-day cold fermented NY style dough that produces pizzas with all of the characteristics that she would like to have in the finished crust, including flavor, color and texture.


Peter

Peter,

Although I thought I had success with a preferment in the preferment Lehmann dough, I now think there really wasnít much of any added flavor to the crust.  To me there was a little added flavor to the crust.  I donít think the average person could have noticed the difference.  The pizzas did look a little more artisan-like, but I sure didnít see other members that tried the preferment Lehmann dough jumping up and down and saying their pizzas tasted better when using that formulation.  Steve even tried my preferment Lehmann dough at his home and fermented the final dough balls longer than one day and told me he really didnít noticed much of any better flavor than a two or three day regular Lehmann dough cold ferment.  As for the soaker experiments I also notice a little difference in flavor and texture of the rim, but again, I donít think a regular person could tell the difference in my one day Lehmann doughs.  Jimís experiments looked a lot better than mine and sometimes he combined flours in the soaker method.  I am beginning to believe that I am stuck with a one day dough if customers really canít tell the difference in my pizzas.  Even my taste testers didnít rave about my different experiments and only said they were a little bit better after I had explained how those pizzas differed from my regular one day Lehmann dough pizzas.  My taste testers have tried all my experiments and my regular one day dough and preferment dough pizzas.  If they really canít tell any difference, then the average customers couldnít tell any difference in my opinion either.  None of my customers ever said when I switched from the preferment Lehmann dough to the one day Lehmann dough that they noticed a difference.  Since I am kind of stuck in not being able to do longer ferments, I donít think my pizzas will ever get any better for market anyway.   

I really canít try a bulk ferment (or it would have to be a short one) in one day, but would think that method might work for better tastes in a crust if someone can control their dough balls after the bulk ferment in different ambient room temperatures.  It is all a balancing act in trying to coax better flavors out of any dough and also to have dough balls that open well. 

Norma

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Re: Bulk rise vs balling
« Reply #21 on: July 19, 2012, 12:34:13 PM »
Norma,

If anyone scans the photos of your pizzas at the Lehmann preferment thread, at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,9908.msg86106.html#msg86106, I think they will readily see how much you accomplished and how successful you were with that dough--in so many different ways. What you did there reflected the high standards that you set for yourself for your pizzas. The fact that your customers at market could not tell that your pizzas were out of the ordinary is perhaps unfortunate but remember that those customers were pretty much captive, with few choices of pizzas. Perhaps your Lehmann preferment pizzas would have fared better if you were running a pizzeria full time where customers would be in a position to choose among several competing pizzerias. That is perhaps where your higher quality product would have made its mark. I believe that the members of the forum who visited you at your stand and sampled your pizzas would agree with me.

Even now, you are still looking to make the best pizzas possible, not just something that barely registers on the quality chart. And just think how much you and I learned from all of our collaborations on the Lehmann preferment thread. That thread has almost 73,500 page views. That puts it in all-star category and means that people were following what you were doing very carefully and with great interest.

Peter

Offline pizzaneer

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Re: Bulk rise vs balling
« Reply #22 on: July 19, 2012, 12:51:33 PM »
+1 from me!

Please don't feel discouraged.  You just need some customers who know pizza to tell you how great yours is.  Do you advertise in upscale areas?  It might be worth the effort to invite a column writer or a popular blogger from those areas to try your pizza.
 
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Offline norma427

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Re: Bulk rise vs balling
« Reply #23 on: July 19, 2012, 02:38:51 PM »
Norma,

If anyone scans the photos of your pizzas at the Lehmann preferment thread, at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,9908.msg86106.html#msg86106, I think they will readily see how much you accomplished and how successful you were with that dough--in so many different ways. What you did there reflected the high standards that you set for yourself for your pizzas. The fact that your customers at market could not tell that your pizzas were out of the ordinary is perhaps unfortunate but remember that those customers were pretty much captive, with few choices of pizzas. Perhaps your Lehmann preferment pizzas would have fared better if you were running a pizzeria full time where customers would be in a position to choose among several competing pizzerias. That is perhaps where your higher quality product would have made its mark. I believe that the members of the forum who visited you at your stand and sampled your pizzas would agree with me.

Even now, you are still looking to make the best pizzas possible, not just something that barely registers on the quality chart. And just think how much you and I learned from all of our collaborations on the Lehmann preferment thread. That thread has almost 73,500 page views. That puts it in all-star category and means that people were following what you were doing very carefully and with great interest.

Peter



Peter,

I donít want to take this thread off-topic anymore about my pizzas, but I did learn a lot on the preferment Lehmann dough thread though trying that dough and all of your posts.  I still want to experiment and might do an experiment at home, (in the next few days, if I remember my IR gun at market) with my BBQ mod to see if a one day Lehmann dough can get better taste in the crust with higher heat.  Just last week at market I tried to set my deck oven up to 550 degrees F for a little while, but although my bottom crusts didnít burn, they were too dark. 

I think maybe the preferment Lehmann dough pizza might have faired out better if I was running a regular pizzeria in our area.  I havenít tasted any good NY style pizza in my area for a long while.  Different customers do ask where I have a regular pizza business though and say they would purchase from me it I did.   As you know I am too old to run a pizzeria everyday.

My taste testers always enjoy my experimental pizzas.  The one man that is my taste tester commented many different times that he thought that the first pies I made were the best ones.  I sure canít remember what those pies tasted like, but know the dough was way off and way over fermented, wouldnĎt open right and so many other problems.  That makes me wonder sometimes if a better fermented dough does give a better taste.   

I guess you already know where this is leading, in that, after I have tasted Steveís Lehmann dough pies in his BBQ grill mod, nothing compares those pizzas for a NY style, at least to me.  The only reason I am mentioning about those pies is that Steveís dough was so over fermented that it popped his plastic container lids off and he had to punch his dough ball down at his home a few hours before he went to the skaters event. The one picture on that thread shows how the dough ball was punched down and the pictures of the containers show how much the dough balls were fermented even after the punch down.   He really doesnít know what that happened in a two day cold fermentation, except he used IDY from two different containers and he guessed that is why the dough balls fermented so much.  Steveís dough balls that day were stored right in a cooler with a lot of ice.  We opened those dough balls cold, with very little warm-up time, and the pizzas didnít even bubble in the middle at all.  That still puzzles me too, unless the high heat took care of that.  I sure wish I could make pies like Steveís at market, but know that I canĎt.   

Steve and I talk about different pizzas all the time, and usually we canít figure out what is going on, but we do learn from those talks.  Steve does like my regular one day Lehmann dough pizzas at market, but I know somehow I can do better.  It is just finding the better way that is hard.

I will post more on my experiments at my other threads at another time.

Norma
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Offline TXCraig1

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Re: Bulk rise vs balling
« Reply #24 on: July 19, 2012, 02:42:46 PM »
Even now, you are still looking to make the best pizzas possible, not just something that barely registers on the quality chart. And just think how much you and I learned from all of our collaborations on the Lehmann preferment thread. That thread has almost 73,500 page views. That puts it in all-star category and means that people were following what you were doing very carefully and with great interest.

I have also learned an incredible amount from following Norma's adventures (as many of them as I could anyway) and doing my own research on questions raised in my mind when doing so.

CL
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Offline norma427

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Re: Bulk rise vs balling
« Reply #25 on: July 19, 2012, 02:48:20 PM »
+1 from me!

Please don't feel discouraged.  You just need some customers who know pizza to tell you how great yours is.  Do you advertise in upscale areas?  It might be worth the effort to invite a column writer or a popular blogger from those areas to try your pizza.
 

Brian,

Thanks for the encouraging words.  :) My customers do say they like my pizzas and say they didnít taste anything like them around my area, but I know I can do better. 

I really donít have a lot of money to advertise for a one day market, although I have made up signs for the 9 bulletin boards at market.  Your idea to invite a column writer might be good, but since I am such a small pizza business I donít think they would really be interested.  I donít think we have any pizza blogger in my area either.  Thanks also for that idea.  :)

Norma
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Offline norma427

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Re: Bulk rise vs balling
« Reply #26 on: July 19, 2012, 02:49:27 PM »
I have also learned an incredible amount from following Norma's adventures (as many of them as I could anyway) and doing my own research on questions raised in my mind when doing so.

CL

Craig,

Thanks for your kind words also!  :)

Norma
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Offline Gianni5

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Re: Bulk rise vs balling
« Reply #27 on: July 19, 2012, 08:39:09 PM »
Thanks for all your input everyone.
I'm going to do some experimenting with preferments just for fun but I thing the process that could end up working for me would be to make dough in the morning, we usually do this around 10, do a bulk rise in the walk-in till the dinner rush is dying down (around 8:30), ball and then back in the walk-in till morning.   

Offline scott123

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Re: Bulk rise vs balling
« Reply #28 on: July 19, 2012, 09:51:45 PM »
John, that sounds pretty sensible, and should give you the best of both worlds, but, as I said before, one of these times, instead of a 10.5 hour bulk, don't be afraid to make the dough the day before (at 10:00) and go with a 34.5 hour bulk and an overnight ball. That could be pushing it a bit, but I think you might appreciate the flavor you'll achieve. Just make sure to dial back the yeast accordingly so that the dough about doubles by the time it's time for balling.

Online Pete-zza

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Re: Bulk rise vs balling
« Reply #29 on: July 20, 2012, 07:38:57 AM »
John,

I hope that you will let us know how the tests turn out and what you learned from them.

Peter


Offline SinoChef

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Re: Bulk rise vs balling
« Reply #30 on: July 20, 2012, 08:51:27 AM »
Quote
Your idea to invite a column writer might be good, but since I am such a small pizza business I donít think they would really be interested.

Norma,

Everything is marketing.  :)

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Offline pizzaneer

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Re: Bulk rise vs balling
« Reply #31 on: July 20, 2012, 09:07:21 AM »
You might take a look at this post:
http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,13911.msg159768.html#msg159768
The recipe isn't spelled out, but you can infer the basic steps.
I'd rather eat one good meal a day than 3 squares of garbage.

Online Pete-zza

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Re: Bulk rise vs balling
« Reply #32 on: July 20, 2012, 09:42:05 AM »
John,

After thinking some more about what you propose to do, it sounds like what you propose to do with respect to the bulk rise and division of the bulk dough is essentially the method described by member wa dave at the PMQ Think Tank at http://thinktank.pmq.com/viewtopic.php?p=73312#p73312, which I referenced earlier. Some time ago, Norma and I played around with the numbers that wa dave used to make an earlier version of his dough (http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,11475.msg104846.html#msg104846) and concluded that his total formula hydration (that took into account the nominal hydration and the water content of the sour dough mix, the milk and the eggs) was around 53%. I suspect that in your case you are using a higher hydration value, which I think should be a plus.

Peter

Offline norma427

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Re: Bulk rise vs balling
« Reply #33 on: July 20, 2012, 11:29:47 AM »
Norma,

Everything is marketing.  :)

"You only get one chance a week to try some of the areas best pizza!"

I would get out of bed on a Saturday for that......

SinoChef,

I know everything is about marketing.  I just donít know how receptive anyone would be about writing about such a small pizza stand.  To state maybe my pizzas might be the best in the area, might be a stretch of the truth.

Thanks for your help!  :)

Norma
« Last Edit: July 20, 2012, 11:32:30 AM by norma427 »
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