Author Topic: SeriousEats.com NY Style Dough and Yeast Amount.....  (Read 5953 times)

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AimlessRyan

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Re: SeriousEats.com NY Style Dough and Yeast Amount.....
« Reply #20 on: July 26, 2012, 08:03:33 PM »
Also, I wish I'd had someone (like Scott) to tell me 10 or 12 years ago that Alton Brown is full of it, as well as someone else to argue that he's not. I mean, he is full of it, but it took me a couple years to figure that out.

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: SeriousEats.com NY Style Dough and Yeast Amount.....
« Reply #21 on: July 26, 2012, 08:04:31 PM »
Well, I didn't see any of Steve's guests here being called any names...and we are all grow up enough to know what opinions are like....but if it pleases the powers that be I guess that I (personally) will try an avoid any lively debates.

Bob,

I had a couple of other recent incidents in mind, and, hence, was speaking generally. I believe that people can engage in lively debates without getting personal.

Peter

Offline Chicago Bob

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Re: SeriousEats.com NY Style Dough and Yeast Amount.....
« Reply #22 on: July 26, 2012, 08:16:06 PM »
Bob,

I had a couple of other recent incidents in mind, and, hence, was speaking generally. I believe that people can engage in lively debates without getting personal.

Peter
I totally agree with that and believe that is one of the purposes of the PM function.Unfortunately, sometimes others don't see it that way. Still, not everyone is privy to the ins & outs of the inuendos and ,yes, I can see why you have a bit of a hair trigger as of late. No doubt you do a fine job as a moderator Peter....jus try'in to get a 'lil love/leeway my friend..... ;)
"Care Free Highway...let me slip away on you"

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: SeriousEats.com NY Style Dough and Yeast Amount.....
« Reply #23 on: July 26, 2012, 08:28:39 PM »
I totally agree with that and believe that is one of the purposes of the PM function.Unfortunately, sometimes others don't see it that way. Still, not everyone is privy to the ins & outs of the inuendos and ,yes, I can see why you have a bit of a hair trigger as of late. No doubt you do a fine job as a moderator Peter....jus try'in to get a 'lil love/leeway my friend..... ;)

Bob,

I have been a Moderator for almost eight years and can count on the fingers of one hand the number of times I have locked a thread. Even then, my practice is to unlock the thread once tempers cool, as I did the other day. As some of our members can attest, I do sometimes use PMs to let them know what is on my mind. Just as often, I have gotten PMs from members who felt that they were treated unfairly. Those PMs are usually accompanied with requests that their posts be deleted and their accounts closed. We have lost several good members this way.

Peter

Offline Chicago Bob

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Re: SeriousEats.com NY Style Dough and Yeast Amount.....
« Reply #24 on: July 26, 2012, 08:38:26 PM »
Well, I haven't been around that long (prolly feels like I have to some) but I do clearly see that you are a fair person and I thank you for that...
Please lord don't ever make that man have to PM me!!    :-D
"Care Free Highway...let me slip away on you"

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: SeriousEats.com NY Style Dough and Yeast Amount.....
« Reply #25 on: July 26, 2012, 08:49:14 PM »
Well, I haven't been around that long (prolly feels like I have to some) but I do clearly see that you are a fair person and I thank you for that...
Please lord don't ever make that man have to PM me!!    :-D

Bob,

I forgot to mention that I split off some of the most heated posts and moved them to the Moderators board before I locked the thread. It's possible that you and Ryan (and other members who may not have on the thread) did not see those posts because I was online at the time and moved fast. When I later checked my email, I got a "report to moderator" email from one member who said that another member was abusive to him in one of the posts that I moved to the Moderators board. I agreed with him but at the same time I can see how people can sometimes behave badly when they are put on the defensive.

Peter

Offline Chicago Bob

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Re: SeriousEats.com NY Style Dough and Yeast Amount.....
« Reply #26 on: July 26, 2012, 08:58:18 PM »
Teeeen-fo......now, how much extra does it cost to get a sneaky peek at the moderators board in times of trouble?       :o     jus kidd'in...... 8)    You mods have all the fun man.... >:(
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Offline scott123

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Re: SeriousEats.com NY Style Dough and Yeast Amount.....
« Reply #27 on: July 26, 2012, 09:21:03 PM »
I agree with you in some ways, Scott, but you gotta understand that California is a much different place than New York and the east coast, especially when it comes to pizza. New Yorkers know pizza, but most Californians have never tasted a really good pizza, and sometimes image is everything in California. If you wanna stay in business, you gotta play by the rules.

Ryan, cultural treasures are owned by those that create them. The champagne producers are perfectly within their rights to tell other wine makers across the globe that they can use their varietal of grape, but they can't call it champagne. They 'own' the rights to the cultural treasure that they created.  Parmigiano Reggiano- same thing.  Balsamic vinegar- also protected.  All these regions have a right to make sure that imitators aren't making money from a debased version of their product.

Now... at this point, New Yorkers can't take these pizzerias that are co-opting and debasing their culture to court, but they can say, "Shame on you. You're taking this precious commodity that we've toiled for decades to establish, making a quick buck off a pale imitation, and, in the process, trashing our hard earned reputation."

If Tony wants to call his trimmed pizza 'Tony Style' or 'Pyzano style' or even something like 'California NY style,'  I would have no problem with it.  But he's taking a brand that 8 million New Yorkers own the rights to and tarnishing it. As you move West from the NY metro area, just about everyone serves up an adulterated version of NY pizza and calls it "NY Style"- and it's wrong. A Wisconsinite, a Floridian, a New Mexican, a Californian- no one outside of NY has the right to re-define NY's cultural treasure. It's wrong when any pizzeria owner does it, but it's especially indefensible when an ex-NYer does it.  Tony should know better than to openly betray his culture.

Offline scott123

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Re: SeriousEats.com NY Style Dough and Yeast Amount.....
« Reply #28 on: July 26, 2012, 09:33:01 PM »
Also, I wish I'd had someone (like Scott) to tell me 10 or 12 years ago that Alton Brown is full of it, as well as someone else to argue that he's not. I mean, he is full of it, but it took me a couple years to figure that out.

Ryan, this is precisely why I am so emphatic when I condemn misinformation.  My 20 years of wandering in the pizza wilderness wasn't 20 years of daily pizzamaking attempts. It began with a garbage recipe from a supposedly trusted source, an extremely disappointing result, a handful of additional attempts to make sure I wasn't doing something wrong and then giving up for about 5 years.  If I go around saying, "Reinhart is wrong about x, x, x, x, and x, that's not going to penetrate the beginner's mindset very far.  If, on the other hand, I call him an idiot, then maybe there's a chance that someone might think twice about grabbing a copy of American Pie and I can prevent them from going through the extended trials that I had to suffer through.

Offline Chicago Bob

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Re: SeriousEats.com NY Style Dough and Yeast Amount.....
« Reply #29 on: July 26, 2012, 09:36:27 PM »
Ryan, cultural treasures are owned by those that create them. The champagne producers are perfectly within their rights to tell other wine makers across the globe that they can use their varietal of grape, but they can't call it champagne. They 'own' the rights to the cultural treasure that they created.  Parmigiano Reggiano- same thing.  Balsamic vinegar- also protected.  All these regions have a right to make sure that imitators aren't making money from a debased version of their product.

  Tony should know better than to openly betray his culture.
Oh he knows...he jus don't care $$
I am of Italian descent also and I understand exactly what you are saying, Scott. Problem is, most others don't. This is such a large country we live in, with so many different regional cultures, it is easy to pull the wool over folks eyes. All done for the love of the all mighty dollar and to hell with respect or tradition....sadly, it ain't gonna ever change, too late now....
"Care Free Highway...let me slip away on you"

Offline Mal

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Re: SeriousEats.com NY Style Dough and Yeast Amount.....
« Reply #30 on: July 26, 2012, 09:42:49 PM »
Oh he knows...he jus don't care $$
I am of Italian descent also and I understand exactly what you are saying, Scott. Problem is, most others don't. This is such a large country we live in, with so many different regional cultures, it is easy to pull the wool over folks eyes. All done for the love of the all mighty dollar and to hell with respect or tradition....sadly, it ain't gonna ever change, too late now....

Apparently Tony also pulled the wool over the eyes of folks in Naples too.  ???
Malakai

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Re: SeriousEats.com NY Style Dough and Yeast Amount.....
« Reply #31 on: July 26, 2012, 10:05:27 PM »
Apparently Tony also pulled the wool over the eyes of folks in Naples too.  ???
Hey enter8, jus curios as to what you mean by that....my topic was addressing the situation in Cali specifically and America in general. Did you read it all the way through?
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AimlessRyan

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Re: SeriousEats.com NY Style Dough and Yeast Amount.....
« Reply #32 on: July 26, 2012, 10:19:09 PM »
It's wrong when any pizzeria owner does it, but it's especially indefensible when an ex-NYer does it.  Tony should know better than to openly betray his culture.

Believe it or not, I pretty much see this how you see it. You make a lot of good points. I don't think Tony should call it New York style, either, but I understand why he does (even though my explanation for why he calls it "New York style" is pure speculation). To be fair, though, Tony hasn't betrayed his New York culture, considering he grew up in Fremont, CA, I believe.

AimlessRyan

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Re: SeriousEats.com NY Style Dough and Yeast Amount.....
« Reply #33 on: July 26, 2012, 10:36:37 PM »
Hey enter8, jus curios as to what you mean by that....my topic was addressing the situation in Cali specifically and America in general. Did you read it all the way through?

I suspect enter8 is alluding to the fact that Tony went to Naples, competed in a big-time Neapolitan competition (culinary, not acrobatic), and won.

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: SeriousEats.com NY Style Dough and Yeast Amount.....
« Reply #34 on: July 26, 2012, 11:00:38 PM »
It looks like Pyzano's ended up with Tony's brother Frank being the owner, and recently shut down: http://castrovalley.patch.com/articles/pyzano-s-pizzeria-announces-its-official-closure.

A Pyzano Food Network video at
<a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_kc7Q4eJd3g" target="_blank" class="aeva_link bbc_link new_win">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_kc7Q4eJd3g</a>
emphasizes the hand shaping and stretching technique. However, another Gemignani Pyzano video at
<a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SjYqw1CLZsA" target="_blank" class="aeva_link bbc_link new_win">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SjYqw1CLZsA</a>
shows the use of a rolling pin, in addition to using the hand shaping and stretching technique. Note, however, that the rolling technique opens up the skin part way and is opened the rest of the way by hand. That is a method that Tom Lehmann recommends for new pizza makers until they can open up skins entirely by hand.

The videos don't indicate that the skins are for the NY style but I don't see anything from those videos to suggest that Tony has betrayed anyone. Of course, that doesn't mean that workers in Pyzano's didn't resort to rolling and trimming the skins, whether for the style shown in the videos or for a NY style.

Peter

Offline scott123

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Re: SeriousEats.com NY Style Dough and Yeast Amount.....
« Reply #35 on: July 26, 2012, 11:09:50 PM »
Believe it or not, I pretty much see this how you see it. You make a lot of good points. I don't think Tony should call it New York style, either, but I understand why he does (even though my explanation for why he calls it "New York style" is pure speculation). To be fair, though, Tony hasn't betrayed his New York culture, considering he grew up in Fremont, CA, I believe.

I stand corrected.  Tony is probably one of the most New York-ish acting non New Yorkers I've ever seen, but perhaps I was projecting.

Offline scott123

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Re: SeriousEats.com NY Style Dough and Yeast Amount.....
« Reply #36 on: July 26, 2012, 11:16:39 PM »
I suspect enter8 is alluding to the fact that Tony went to Naples, competed in a big-time Neapolitan competition (culinary, not acrobatic), and won.

I don't think he won using NY style dough, though, which has been the scope of this discussion.

I have to admit, I recall a video of Tony's a couple years back where he was pretty much clueless about Neapolitan style pizza, and, then, about a year and a half later, he seemed like he really knew what he was doing. If he can learn about Neapolitan, maybe he can figure out what he needs to on the NY style side as well.
« Last Edit: July 26, 2012, 11:20:42 PM by scott123 »

Offline scott123

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Re: SeriousEats.com NY Style Dough and Yeast Amount.....
« Reply #37 on: July 26, 2012, 11:19:32 PM »
Note, however, that the rolling technique opens up the skin part way and is opened the rest of the way by hand. That is a method that Tom Lehmann recommends for new pizza makers until they can open up skins entirely by hand.

No offense to Tom, but using a rolling pin or a sheeter, combined with hand stretching- to the NY style purist, that's still pretty evil.

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: SeriousEats.com NY Style Dough and Yeast Amount.....
« Reply #38 on: July 26, 2012, 11:28:41 PM »
scott123,

Tom intends the method to be a training method: http://thinktank.pmq.com/viewtopic.php?p=41080#p41080.

Peter

Offline Essen1

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Re: SeriousEats.com NY Style Dough and Yeast Amount.....
« Reply #39 on: July 26, 2012, 11:45:42 PM »
Wow.

Pyzano's closed its doors? I live maybe a 45 minute drive from it and never heard a thing about it in the local papers.

First hunch says that it wasn't the same quality after Tony left but there might be more to the story, who knows. But after 21 years...that's a tough thing to swallow for regular customers and owners.
Mike

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