Author Topic: SeriousEats.com NY Style Dough and Yeast Amount.....  (Read 8023 times)

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Offline rcbaughn

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SeriousEats.com NY Style Dough and Yeast Amount.....
« on: July 26, 2012, 10:16:58 AM »
So, I made the Seriouseats.com NY style dough that Kenji came up with in my food processor and had plans to use it after about 3 days, but every few hours it was rising out of the bowl in the fridge. The recipe uses 2 teaspoons of IDY to 22 1/2 ounces of flour.... This seems like a ridiculous amount of yeast for a slow refrigerator rise, even for the minimum 24 hour stash in the fridge that is recommended with his recipe. The recipe says that you can rest the dough in the fridge for up to 5 days, but I have a feeling that the dough would be so overblown that it would just be a pile of gooey mess when you went to stretch it out. I know that my dough after two days, which I decided to bake it at since it was rising so often and with quite a few punch downs, was very slack and almost useless when I went to stretch it, very thin in places even for a NY pizza. It did have oven spring in the crust but not that much. I have no pictures of the pie but you get the idea. 

Does anyone have any feelings on this recipe? I don't know if I did the technique different than he did, but it just seems all wrong for Serious Eats to recommend that much yeast for having put so much work into the formulation. It doesn't say anywhere in the recipe about any punch downs in the refrigerator. I personally have never ever had this happen to me using any of the cold rise recipes on this site. The recipes from this forum have always risen slowly if any and developed quite a lot of flavor. Has anyone had any luck using Kenji's recipe or is it pretty useless unless you're doing a quick rise pie, which seems to be the case when using that amount of yeast.
More is better..... and too much is just right.


Offline Ev

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Re: SeriousEats.com NY Style Dough and Yeast Amount.....
« Reply #1 on: July 26, 2012, 10:44:22 AM »
The way I figure, that's about 1% of the total formula @ 60% HR. In other words, about 4 times the amount I generally use for a 3 day cold ferment.

Offline rcbaughn

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Re: SeriousEats.com NY Style Dough and Yeast Amount.....
« Reply #2 on: July 26, 2012, 11:07:28 AM »
Yeah that's what I was thinking in that it is A LOT of yeast. It seems that they would have given yeast amount adjustments for different ferment times, but the recipe just specifies 2 teaspoons for a 1-5 day cold ferment. Here is the link to the post and the recipe can be accessed from there -

http://slice.seriouseats.com/archives/2010/10/the-pizza-lab-how-to-make-great-new-york-style-pizza.html

I may post on the Serious Eats site and ask if they will amend the recipe for longer ferments, and maybe even reduce the yeast amount for the 24 hour method even. My fridge stays so cold that it freezes some foods on the bottom shelf so I know it isn't my fridge temps being too high.

More is better..... and too much is just right.

Online Aimless Ryan

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Re: SeriousEats.com NY Style Dough and Yeast Amount.....
« Reply #3 on: July 26, 2012, 12:01:56 PM »
http://slice.seriouseats.com/archives/2010/10/the-pizza-lab-how-to-make-great-new-york-style-pizza.html.


I've only read as far as the picture of the two dough balls so far, but my impression is that this guy doesn't know what he's talking about. I mean, of course the processor dough will occupy more volume than a mixer dough after a day of fermentation, because the processor dough is much warmer after mixing. He confuses quantity with quality, and he confuses causality with correlation.

And 2 tsp of IDY for that amount of dough??? Come on, man!

Online Aimless Ryan

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Re: SeriousEats.com NY Style Dough and Yeast Amount.....
« Reply #4 on: July 26, 2012, 12:18:00 PM »
I do agree with his pizza-consumer observations, though. Particularly his take on Ray's on 6th Av and Ray's on Prince Street. Unfortunately, both of those places closed last fall. (I was fortunate to get a couple last chances at Ray's on Prince Street during their final week. Woo.)

Online Pete-zza

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Re: SeriousEats.com NY Style Dough and Yeast Amount.....
« Reply #5 on: July 26, 2012, 12:24:29 PM »
Cory,

This is a subject that has been worked over on the forum. See, for example, the thread at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,12278.msg116253.html#msg116253. The recipe that you used was based on one that Peter Reinhart came up with. Peter has always been fond of doughs that can serve double duty--be used the same day or several days later. At the time of the abovementioned recipe, he was also fond of doughs passing the windowpane test as a sign that they were properly kneaded. More recently, he seems to have dispensed with that particular test in the dough recipes that he has been posting.

I personally do not consider the Reinhart NY style dough recipe to be representative of the classic NY style. However, people are free to call their recipes whatever they'd like, even if it misleads others who are not in the know.

That will teach you to stray from the reservation :-D.

Peter

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Re: SeriousEats.com NY Style Dough and Yeast Amount.....
« Reply #6 on: July 26, 2012, 12:34:51 PM »
If one were to do a google search "NY style pizza dough recipes" you would find several pages of generic cookie cutter recipes calling out much of the same proportions, whether it's 1tsp. yeast to two cups of flour, or one packet to 3 and a half cups flour,etc. etc. with some minor differences in the water ratio, salt, sugar and oil. Many will have the instruction, if not used right away, place in refrigerator for later use. Heck, here's one that uses half the flour but 2tsp. ADY.......   http://allrecipes.com/recipe/new-york-italian-pizza-dough/
These recipes are for people who don't want complicated recipes or require much thought. Do I think it's one of Kenji's best articles, no, I'm sorry to say I don't.
Don
ps. I have never be able to window pane after 30 seconds mix in a processor.

Offline norma427

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Re: SeriousEats.com NY Style Dough and Yeast Amount.....
« Reply #7 on: July 26, 2012, 02:50:02 PM »
Cory,

Although I never tried any formulations from Slice written by Kenji, in my opinion you are better off trying some formulations here on the forum that are proven.  :)

Norma
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Offline scott123

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Re: SeriousEats.com NY Style Dough and Yeast Amount.....
« Reply #8 on: July 26, 2012, 05:31:13 PM »
I've only read as far as the picture of the two dough balls so far, but my impression is that this guy doesn't know what he's talking about.

I have, in recent years, said some really harsh things about Kenji, mostly stemming from the fact that I think he's an incredibly smart guy, and when he teaches people poor pizzamaking practices, my disappointment in him has gotten the best of me and I've lashed out.

The reality is, though, that when it comes to serving the cause of pizza, no one is in a position to do greater things than Kenji.  Of the people in the industry that can match Kenji's audience, no one is anywhere near serving pizza's best interests. Reinhart is an idiot.  Chris Young (Modernist Cuisine) has a good idea or two, but, unfortunately everything he teaches comes from a foundation of Heston Blumenthal's debased perception of pizza.  Who else is left? Tony Gemignani? He's great at spinning dough, but he's isn't all that knowledgeable about making it.

The industry desperately needs people in the public eye that are truly knowledgeable about pizza.  Kenji may have a gap or two in his pizza-related knowledge, but no one is in a better position to become a national spokesperson for better pizza.  The only way he's going to fill those gaps, though, is if he listens to us- and he's not going to listen to us if we're bashing him.

We can talk about the shortcomings of his recipe, but let's try to be kinder to Kenji.

Offline Ev

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Re: SeriousEats.com NY Style Dough and Yeast Amount.....
« Reply #9 on: July 26, 2012, 05:59:21 PM »
Kinder to Kenji, but Reinhart's an idiot?  ???  I thought we were better than that. :'(


Offline scott123

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Re: SeriousEats.com NY Style Dough and Yeast Amount.....
« Reply #10 on: July 26, 2012, 06:17:08 PM »
Steve, with American pie, Reinhart single handedly set back pizzamaking over 30 years. American pie craps on NY culture.  And Neapolitan?  It's because of people like Reinhart that organizations like VPN exist. It's why Italians like Marco laugh at American Neapolitan pizzamakers.  Reinhart is a breadbaking carpetbagger cashing in on spreading pizza misinformation.  "Idiot" is me being kind.

Online Aimless Ryan

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Re: SeriousEats.com NY Style Dough and Yeast Amount.....
« Reply #11 on: July 26, 2012, 06:35:21 PM »
Tony Gemignani? He's great at spinning dough, but he's isn't all that knowledgeable about making it.

Tony is a lot more knowledgeable about pizza than you might think. His videos don't reflect his true knowledge, nor does his published work or the menu at Pyzano's. For example, "New York style" dough at Pyzano's is rolled and trimmed; it's nothing like pizza you'd get in New York. Tony knows it's not really NY style pizza. But you know what? The people of Castro Valley, California think "New York style" pizza means thin-crust pizza, so that's what Pyzano's serves as "New York style." And Pyzano's is SLAMMED every night.

Tony is a brilliant marketer, a brilliant pizzeria operator, a brilliant teacher/trainer, and a brilliant showman. He's also one of the nicest guys I've ever known. (No, we're not friends, but I do know him.) But what impresses me most about Tony is that he is genuine. I have a ton of respect for Tony Gemignani.

Offline scott123

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Re: SeriousEats.com NY Style Dough and Yeast Amount.....
« Reply #12 on: July 26, 2012, 06:47:57 PM »
Sorry, Ryan, but if a New Yorker opens a pizzeria where the pizzas are 'rolled and trimmed,' and then proceeds to label them 'NY Style,' he forfeits any right to be called 'genuine,' regardless of where the pizzeria is located or what he, himself, knows in his heart to be NY style. As far as I'm concerned, there's a special place in hell for people that trim pizza dough.

I have no doubt that he's the nicest guy in the world, but completely misrepresenting NY style pizza isn't furthering it's cause, it's hindering it.

Btw, from videos, it seems like Reinhart is a great guy as well.  This isn't about personality- but their contribution to pizza knowledge.
« Last Edit: July 26, 2012, 06:49:28 PM by scott123 »

Offline Ev

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Re: SeriousEats.com NY Style Dough and Yeast Amount.....
« Reply #13 on: July 26, 2012, 07:06:57 PM »
Steve, with American pie, Reinhart single handedly set back pizzamaking over 30 years. American pie craps on NY culture.  And Neapolitan?  It's because of people like Reinhart that organizations like VPN exist. It's why Italians like Marco laugh at American Neapolitan pizzamakers.  Reinhart is a breadbaking carpetbagger cashing in on spreading pizza misinformation.  "Idiot" is me being kind.

I've never read the book, so I guess I don't know. However, I've tried a couple Reinhart recipes with outstanding results.
If you don't like him, that's fine. I just don't appreciate all the negativity and name calling.
 If Reinhart is guilty of spreading misinformation, I can assure you, he is not alone.

Offline scott123

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Re: SeriousEats.com NY Style Dough and Yeast Amount.....
« Reply #14 on: July 26, 2012, 07:27:20 PM »
If Reinhart is guilty of spreading misinformation, I can assure you, he is not alone.

Steve, over the years, I've spread plenty of misinformation.  When I made the mistake of recommending soapstone, based on that advice, I would estimate that around 20 people got lucky and got a good stone, and 20 were not so fortunate.  20 people paid the price for my ignorance.  Reinhart has sold literally hundreds of thousands of books.  When he's wrong, the impact is monumentally greater. Out of every 10 new members who join this forum thinking they know what Neapolitan pizza is, at least 5 have absolutely no clue.  This is all thanks to Reinhart.

Steve, my culture is being systematically destroyed by people like Reinhart (and Gemignani).  There's no way I can put a happy non-negative face on this.

Online Pete-zza

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Re: SeriousEats.com NY Style Dough and Yeast Amount.....
« Reply #15 on: July 26, 2012, 07:29:32 PM »
I think this line of discourse has gone far enough. I think it is incumbent on all of us to remember that we are all guests in Steve's house. To me, that means conducting ourselves as we would in anyone's home--with civility, decorum and respect for others, even those with whom we disagree. People are free to have their opinions but not every opinion has to be given voice. I believe that all of our members are capable of forming their own opinions, even those that end up being misguided. So, please, let's stop all of this sniping and get back to what this forum does best--help people to learn and fulfill their desires to make better pizzas. There's no place that does that better than this forum. So, let's not trash it.

Peter

Offline Chicago Bob

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Re: SeriousEats.com NY Style Dough and Yeast Amount.....
« Reply #16 on: July 26, 2012, 07:36:54 PM »
I've never read the book, so I guess I don't know.  I just don't appreciate all the negativity and name calling.
 
???   
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Online Aimless Ryan

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Re: SeriousEats.com NY Style Dough and Yeast Amount.....
« Reply #17 on: July 26, 2012, 07:50:50 PM »
I agree with you in some ways, Scott, but you gotta understand that California is a much different place than New York and the east coast, especially when it comes to pizza. New Yorkers know pizza, but most Californians have never tasted a really good pizza, and sometimes image is everything in California. If you wanna stay in business, you gotta play by the rules.

Peter, you seem very concerned lately that someone might get offended by things that have been said on these boards. I have not been offended by any of the discussions, but I most certainly am offended when interesting discussions/arguments get locked by moderators. Arguments can be a productive part of life and learning, and pizzamaking.com is probably the most civil online community around.

Offline Chicago Bob

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Re: SeriousEats.com NY Style Dough and Yeast Amount.....
« Reply #18 on: July 26, 2012, 07:54:05 PM »
Well, I didn't see any of Steve's guests here being called any names...and we are all grow up enough to know what opinions are like....but if it pleases the powers that be I guess that I (personally) will try an avoid any lively debates.
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Online Pete-zza

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Re: SeriousEats.com NY Style Dough and Yeast Amount.....
« Reply #19 on: July 26, 2012, 08:00:59 PM »
Peter, you seem very concerned lately that someone might get offended by things that have been said on these boards. I have not been offended by any of the discussions, but I most certainly am offended when interesting discussions/arguments get locked by moderators. Arguments can be a productive part of life and learning, and pizzamaking.com is probably the most civil online community around.

Ryan,

It is entirely appropriate for the members to discuss the issues at hand. But when the discussions become personal, that is where I am likely to be concerned. That is part of the job of being a Moderator. Of course, members are free to voice any concerns in this regard to Steve.

Peter