Author Topic: Cold Ferment?  (Read 2465 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline juniorballoon

  • Supporting Member
  • *
  • Posts: 303
  • Age: 57
  • Location: Duvall WA
    • Sirfoodalot
Cold Ferment?
« on: August 03, 2012, 10:52:46 AM »
I am working on a cold ferment dough for this weekend. Started it Wednesday night.

70% KABF and 30% Semolina Flour   567g
KosherSalt                            11g
ADY Yeast                             5g
Water                                         368g

It rose on the counter for 4 hours and more than doubled. I did a small amount of kneading and balled it up, put it in plastic containers and into the fridge. It has now more than doubled in size. I wasn't expecting that. Dough looks great and I'm sure it's fine. Just wondering what others see at this stage? I'm trying to find out what the least amount of yeast is required to get a nice dough from a 3-4 day cold ferment.

jb


buceriasdon

  • Guest
Re: Cold Ferment?
« Reply #1 on: August 03, 2012, 11:09:56 AM »
I calculate your yeast about to be .9% which for a 3 to 4 day cold ferment is too much. You will likely experience overfermented dough.
Don

Offline weemis

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 578
  • Age: 35
  • Location: Columbus, OH
    • My Pizza Web Blog
Re: Cold Ferment?
« Reply #2 on: August 03, 2012, 11:14:27 AM »
You could definitely go lower with a cold ferment. The lehmann dough calculator recommends 0.25-0.75% ADY. For your recipe, that would be 1.4175g- 4.2525g. When you bulk ferment your dough, it warms faster as a larger mass generating heat, which in tern leads to more heat retention. There are dough temperature guidelines that I'm not too familiar with to help understand this a little better. Maybe someone else will chime in with that info, or you can try and do a search for dough temperature info.
Nick Gore - just a dough eyed wanderer

Offline juniorballoon

  • Supporting Member
  • *
  • Posts: 303
  • Age: 57
  • Location: Duvall WA
    • Sirfoodalot
Re: Cold Ferment?
« Reply #3 on: August 03, 2012, 11:27:58 AM »
Very interesting. These amounts are based on a Kenji Alt Neapolitan dough from http://www.seriouseats.com/ . In his he speicifes IDY, and it was my understanding that if you use ADY you actually use a bit more. I made this dough a few weeks ago with 8.5 grams and, though it made nice pizza, thought it was too much fermentation.

Watching this dough rise I was thinking I'd cut the yeast by half next time, good to see that instinct confirmed.

Thanks,
jb

EDIT: Here are the ratios from the article:
All-purpose or bread flour: 100%
Salt: 2%
Instant yeast: 1.5 %
Water: 65%

« Last Edit: August 03, 2012, 11:32:17 AM by juniorballoon »

buceriasdon

  • Guest
Re: Cold Ferment?
« Reply #4 on: August 03, 2012, 12:53:47 PM »

Offline The Dough Doctor

  • Tom Lehmann
  • Moderator
  • *
  • Posts: 971
  • Location: Manhattan, KS
Re: Cold Ferment?
« Reply #5 on: August 03, 2012, 03:05:02 PM »
We have not had good success with pre-fermenting the dough prior to scaling, balling and taking it to the cooler/refrigerator when we are holding it for more than about 24-hours. This is due mostly to the dough over fermenting while in the refrigerator, if you simply begin reducing the yeast to a point where it won't over ferment (blow) you probably won't have enough leavening when the dough goes into the oven to support the weight of the toppings, so you can end up with a nice edge, but a flat center portion that in all too many instances is characterized with a gum line just beneath the sauce layer. We find it much better to take the dough directly from the mixer (80 to 85F) cut and round it, oil the dough ball(s) and drop into a plastic bread bag, twist the end closed and tuck it under the dough ball as you place it into the fridge. This is important as it allows for some expansion of the dough ball. The dough will be ready to begin using after about 24-hours, but is at its best after 32-hours, and it will hold in the fridge for a total of about 48-hours, or a little more. To use the dough, remove from the fridge about 2-hours before you anticipate opening the dough ball into a pizza skin, then turn the dough out of the bag, dropping it into a bowl of dusting flour, place the dough onto the counter top and open into a pizza skin in your normal manner. We do this all the time and it works really well for us.
Tom Lehmann/The Dough Doctor

Offline juniorballoon

  • Supporting Member
  • *
  • Posts: 303
  • Age: 57
  • Location: Duvall WA
    • Sirfoodalot
Re: Cold Ferment?
« Reply #6 on: August 03, 2012, 03:42:03 PM »
Just to be clear, when you say pre-ferment, you mean the 4 hours it sat on the counter, yes? That makes sense as the yeast will be slower acting. Next time I make dough I'll reduce the amount of yeast by about half, pre-ferment half and put the other half in the fridge right out of the mixer.

Thanks,
jb

Offline TomN

  • Supporting Member
  • *
  • Posts: 1497
  • Age: 55
  • Location: Seattle, WA
Re: Cold Ferment?
« Reply #7 on: August 07, 2012, 01:52:28 PM »
I don't give my dough any rise time on the counter.  I put my dough into a freezer bag and then immediately into the refrigerator for a minimum of 24 hours. Because I use Pendelton Power Flour, which is high gluten with more protein, it can cold rise up to 5 days. The extra days give the dough more time for the flavor to develop. Usually, I use up the dough in 2 days since everyone is waiting for pizza.

4 cups of POWER flour
1/2 teaspoon of salt into the flour

In a separate cup:
5oz of warm water
1 and a half teaspoons of quick rise yeast.
1 tablespoon of sugar
Stir with a spoon and let the yeast do it's thing
Just as I am going to pour it onto the flour, I add 1 tablespoon of Extra Virgin Olive Oil.

In another separate cup:
9oz of beer

mix in the cup with the water and yeast
then mix in the beer.

Knead the dough by hand for 10 mins.
Lightly coat the dough ball with Extra Virgin Olive Oil
Into the freezer bag and into the fridge.
Wait for at least 24 hours.

http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,17415.120.html
« Last Edit: August 07, 2012, 01:58:11 PM by TomN »

Offline Pete-zza

  • Lifetime Member
  • Global Moderator
  • *
  • Posts: 22072
  • Location: Texas
  • Always learning
Re: Cold Ferment?
« Reply #8 on: August 07, 2012, 02:26:35 PM »
TomN,

It is generally advised that yeast and sugar not be added together to the water of rehydration because it can adversely affect yeast performance. See the PMQ Think Tank post at http://thinktank.pmq.com/viewtopic.php?p=3304#p3304. If you want to kickstart the yeast, you only need a pinch or two of sugar. The rest of the formula sugar can be added to the flour or dissolved, along with the salt, in the portion of the formula water not used to rehydrate the yeast. Using this method might allow you to use less yeast since its performance is not impaired by the high sugar levels.

Peter
« Last Edit: August 07, 2012, 02:40:40 PM by Pete-zza »

buceriasdon

  • Guest
Re: Cold Ferment?
« Reply #9 on: August 07, 2012, 02:40:18 PM »
Can't add much to Peter's post except to ask, why hydrate rapid rise yeast? Just wondering.
Don


Offline Pete-zza

  • Lifetime Member
  • Global Moderator
  • *
  • Posts: 22072
  • Location: Texas
  • Always learning
Re: Cold Ferment?
« Reply #10 on: August 07, 2012, 02:51:41 PM »
Don,

You are correct. However, there are some people who, out of habit or for other reasons, like to rehydrate all forms of dry yeast, including IDY. The general rule is that IDY should be rehydrated in warm water only when the knead time to be very short, typically less than 4 or 5 minutes, as noted in Reply 5 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,14376.msg174903.html#msg174903.

Peter

Offline TomN

  • Supporting Member
  • *
  • Posts: 1497
  • Age: 55
  • Location: Seattle, WA
Re: Cold Ferment?
« Reply #11 on: August 07, 2012, 02:53:27 PM »
I learned and have developed the beer/water pizza dough from many Pizzeria owners that make it that way. The beer adds to the flavor and the texture. With this amount liquid, the dough kneads very well. The coating of Extra Virgin Olive Oil adds to the flavor and keeps the dough moist and workable.

I have been in some pizzerias where they even pour water around the dough as it proofs. I prefer my method with the beer.

Offline TomN

  • Supporting Member
  • *
  • Posts: 1497
  • Age: 55
  • Location: Seattle, WA
Re: Cold Ferment?
« Reply #12 on: August 07, 2012, 02:55:02 PM »
Thanks Pete-zza for the sugar information. I will try some adjustments and see how that works.

Offline juniorballoon

  • Supporting Member
  • *
  • Posts: 303
  • Age: 57
  • Location: Duvall WA
    • Sirfoodalot
Re: Cold Ferment?
« Reply #13 on: August 21, 2012, 10:45:43 AM »
Last time I made dough I did split it into two parts. 3 balls went immediately to the fridge the other sat on the counter at 68ish for 4 hours and then also went into lightly oiled plastic bags and into the fridge. After 3 days you could see the prefermented dough was slightly larger. I took them out 2 hours before making pizza, gently re-balled and let them sit in a pan. Again the prefermented dough rose a bit more during that time. I couldn't tell any difference between the two in the finished pizza. The prefermented dough was looser and a bit more difficult to shape. Both had no issue with tearing, but each was still a fast and loose dough. While not as loose ,even the non prefermented dough would not have been suitable for a slap technique to stretch the pie.

I am going to keep the yeast ratio and reduce the water to 60%. I'll make the dough Wed evening for Sunday pizza. Don't think I'll split it off this time, just go straight into the fridge.

The probelm I have with these loose doughs, while they stretch out easily and don't require a roller, it is difficult to get an even thickness. Not a big problem as the pizza are delicious, but you end up with some bites that are more bready than I'd like. I am only guessing that lower hydration will help with this.

For clarity these are the ratios I used last time:

70% KABF and 30% Semolina Flour   567g
KosherSalt                            11g
ADY Yeast                             2g
Water                                     368g

I haven't done the math yet to determine the water amount to get to 60%.

jb
« Last Edit: August 21, 2012, 10:47:45 AM by juniorballoon »

Offline The Dough Doctor

  • Tom Lehmann
  • Moderator
  • *
  • Posts: 971
  • Location: Manhattan, KS
Re: Cold Ferment?
« Reply #14 on: August 21, 2012, 02:34:17 PM »
JB;
Your present dough formula is at 64.9% absorption (water weight divided by flour weight times 100). To find your absorption at 60% just use your calculator and enter the flour weight (567) X 60 (press the "%" key) and read the answer in the display window. 567 X 60 (%) 340.2 g./ml of water should be added to provide 60% dough absorption.
Tom Lehmann/The Dough Doctor

Offline juniorballoon

  • Supporting Member
  • *
  • Posts: 303
  • Age: 57
  • Location: Duvall WA
    • Sirfoodalot
Re: Cold Ferment?
« Reply #15 on: August 21, 2012, 03:39:45 PM »
Thanks Tom. I slapped this formula in to Excel and it came up with the 340g number as well, =((567*60)%). Nice to know I can use this to get to any hydration I want to use.

jb

Offline juniorballoon

  • Supporting Member
  • *
  • Posts: 303
  • Age: 57
  • Location: Duvall WA
    • Sirfoodalot
Re: Cold Ferment?
« Reply #16 on: August 27, 2012, 12:22:45 PM »
Just a quick report on the dough. This was much more workable and cooked up very nicely, very tasty. These did go straight into the fridge after mixing. Will work with these amounts again next time. I took the balls out about 1 1/2 to 2 hours before building pizzas and they could have used more time at room temp. Next time I'll give them 2 1/2 to 3 hours.

Hit pizza of the night was a brussel sprout and prosciuto pie. Small change from the recipe I read here from TXCraig1, I quartered the sprouts and then sauted them with some shallots until they were a bit carmelized. No sauce, just a light brushing of olive oil, a couple of thin slices of tomato, mozzarella, provolone and topped with the sprouts and diced prosciuto. Very different and very delicious.

Thanks,
jb