Author Topic: Over fermented dough  (Read 1999 times)

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Offline juniorballoon

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Over fermented dough
« on: August 09, 2012, 01:59:13 PM »
What exactly are the characteristics of over fermented dough?

Thanks,
jb


Offline Aimless Ryan

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Re: Over fermented dough
« Reply #1 on: August 09, 2012, 02:06:28 PM »
While it's still dough or after it's baked?

Offline Aimless Ryan

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Re: Over fermented dough
« Reply #2 on: August 09, 2012, 02:10:46 PM »
If it's still dough, some signs are:

  • Strong alcohol smell;
  • Deflated.

Trying to think of some other signs.

Offline Aimless Ryan

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Re: Over fermented dough
« Reply #3 on: August 09, 2012, 02:14:13 PM »
After it's baked, some signs may be:

  • Pale crust;
  • Dense and lifeless;
  • Difficult to cut;
  • Perhaps a gummy layer. (Can anyone second this?)

Offline Aimless Ryan

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Re: Over fermented dough
« Reply #4 on: August 09, 2012, 02:17:06 PM »
As dough, another sign may be: slack, overly extensible dough. That is, it may stretch a lot easier than adequately-fermented dough.

Offline Everlast

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Re: Over fermented dough
« Reply #5 on: August 09, 2012, 02:22:54 PM »
jb,

Peter has a detailed description both in this post and the posts he references within. I just recently had an experience with what Peter calls a fatally overfermented dough.

http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,18753.20.html

Damian

Offline The Dough Doctor

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Re: Over fermented dough
« Reply #6 on: August 09, 2012, 03:01:49 PM »
A slightly over fermented dough may exhibit bucky characteristics during forming. In this case bucky means that the dough will be overly elastic and resist stretching. Severely over fermented dough will stretch easily, even to the point of tearing easily. It will feel "dead" like pushing out a wet towel, and it won't exhibit good rise characteristics during baking, often seen as a pizza with a very low (thin) center section with poor bake out properties. Due to consumption of most of the sugar and acidification of the dough, it will not exhibit good baking or browning characteristics in the oven. As a finished crust, the presence of a gum line just under the sauce is common, especially with a thin/low center section, a light or mottled appearance is common, and the flavor might be a little on the sharp side of desirable due to the excessive acid formation.
Tom Lehmann/The Dough Doctor

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Over fermented dough
« Reply #7 on: August 09, 2012, 03:35:48 PM »
jb,

Different doughs behave differently as they ferment so it is hard to state with exactitude the precise symptoms of overfermentation. Ryan and Tom have already mentioned several of the telltale signs of overfermentation, including the odor of alcohol and excessive extensibility. The dough can also be soft and puffy with a profusion of fermentation bubbles that can usually be seen at the sides and bottom of the dough balls (which is why it is a good idea to use transparent or translucent storage containers). If this condition persists long enough, the dough can deflate, as Ryan noted. Also, as all of these things are taking place, the protease enzymes and acids degrade the gluten structure. This can result in the dough becoming wet and clammy because the breakdown of the gluten structure is accompanied by a release of the water from its chemical bond.

In a commercial setting, you don't want to have a dough overferment to the degree mentioned above. But many of our members actually like to wait until the last minute to use their doughs because of all of the byproducts of fermentation that result in better crust flavor. With experience working with particular doughs, one gets to know when to use the doughs.

To the above, I might add that sometimes it is difficult to detect when a dough has started to overferment. I have made doughs that cold fermented for a few weeks without overfermenting. In some cases, large bubbles formed in the doughs at the surface. However, the dough balls were still firm with no other clues of overfermentation, so I simply pinched the bubbles to deflate them. Doughs that have fermented for a long time can also develop black spots, which some people might construe as a sign of the dough being overfermented. However, that isn't always the case. Those spots can occur with fairly young doughs as well as aged ones.

Peter

Offline juniorballoon

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Re: Over fermented dough
« Reply #8 on: August 09, 2012, 04:34:23 PM »
As I'm working and learning about multiday, cold fermentation I think I've been running into this a bit. The dough has been making really nice pizza, but it doesn't look like what I see in some of the videos. Mine has been somewhat moist, requires a bit of extra flour, stretches very easily, almost too easily, by gravity and has a tendency to stick to the peel. I haven't had tearing problems and as I've said other places, these CF doughs have allowed me to make skins without using a roller for the first time.

In my first batch I used ADY that wasn't proofed, rose at room temp for 12 hours (did not double), balled and in the fridge for 3 days, then room temp for 2 hours before making skins. It was a fast moving dough. Barely lift it off the counter and it was stretching out.

Second batch I used ADY that was proofed, rose at room temp for 4 hours (more than doubled), balled and in the fridge for 3 days, then room temp for 2 hours before making skins. These were kept in palstic containers with lids and quite a bit of gas built up each day. When I took them out of the fridge they had formed many bubbles. Still it worked very similarly to my first attempt and also made pretty tasty pizza. But they are so loose and stretchy that if you had tried the Slap technique with any of these you would have had dough flying all over the place.

From another thread I learned that this second batch had about twice as much yeast as needed for a long, cold ferment. I now have a batch fermenting where I used just 3 grams of ADY in 850 grams of KABF. Half was balled immediately after mixing and went to the fridge and the other half did 4 hours at room temp then balled and in the fridge. Even after just one evening there is noticeable, though not big, visual difference between the two. These will get used on Sunday.

Are these symptoms of over fermentation or do longer, cold fermented doughs sometimes behave this way? I can't believe the first batch was over fermented, though the second one surely must have been at least somewhat.

Thanks,
jb

Offline Aimless Ryan

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Re: Over fermented dough
« Reply #9 on: August 09, 2012, 04:53:45 PM »
As I'm working and learning about multiday, cold fermentation I think I've been running into this a bit. The dough has been making really nice pizza, but it doesn't look like what I see in some of the videos. Mine has been somewhat moist, requires a bit of extra flour, stretches very easily, almost too easily, by gravity and has a tendency to stick to the peel. I haven't had tearing problems and as I've said other places, these CF doughs have allowed me to make skins without using a roller for the first time.

In my first batch I used ADY that wasn't proofed, rose at room temp for 12 hours (did not double), balled and in the fridge for 3 days, then room temp for 2 hours before making skins. It was a fast moving dough. Barely lift it off the counter and it was stretching out.

That does not sound overfermented to me, or even close. It does sound like your hydration figure is way up in the 70s or so, which for my tastes (and apparently your tastes, too) is ridiculous.


Offline juniorballoon

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Re: Over fermented dough
« Reply #10 on: August 09, 2012, 05:07:12 PM »
That does not sound overfermented to me, or even close. It does sound like your hydration figure is way up in the 70s or so, which for my tastes (and apparently your tastes, too) is ridiculous.

Hydration has been at 65% for these batches. Once I see how this batch works out I will have to play with the hydration.

jb

Offline Aimless Ryan

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Re: Over fermented dough
« Reply #11 on: August 09, 2012, 05:17:01 PM »
The dough in these pics (http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,20342.msg200617.html#msg200617) was 56.25% hydration, with 1.58% oil (All Trumps flour). This was near the low end of the hydration spectrum for NY style, but I thought it felt and tasted great.

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Over fermented dough
« Reply #12 on: August 09, 2012, 05:28:25 PM »
Hydration has been at 65% for these batches. Once I see how this batch works out I will have to play with the hydration.

jb,

If you are using 65% hydration and if you are using a bread flour such as the King Arthur bread flour (KABF), you can expect an above average extensibility. The KABF has a rated absorption of 62%. For many pizza operators, even that would be considered to be too high as a hydration value, especially for those pizza operators who hire inexperienced workers to make the pizzas. They are more likely to use a hydration of 56-58%. It is important to keep in mind that a dough with high extensibility is not the same as an overfermented dough. Another point to keep in mind is that a dough made using a commercial mixer is bound to be more robust than one made by hand or in a stand mixer in a home environment. A commercial dough will usually handle much better than one made in a typical home setting because the gluten structure is a stronger one.

My advice is to lower the hydration value, much as Ryan has stated. I sometimes suggest that newbies start with around 57-58% hydration and, as they gain experience with handling a dough at that hydration value, gradually increase the hydration value until the final, desired results are achieved. That usually turns out to be a good learning experience.

Peter

Offline juniorballoon

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Re: Over fermented dough
« Reply #13 on: August 09, 2012, 05:41:13 PM »
Hmm, appears that what I was seeing is too much liquid rather than over fermentation. Looks like I have my next set of experiments laid out for me.

Thanks Ryan and Pete.

jb


 

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