Author Topic: All Trumps Bromated = Magic Pizza Dust  (Read 5110 times)

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enter8

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Re: All Trumps Bromated = Magic Pizza Dust
« Reply #20 on: August 05, 2012, 03:31:53 PM »
Money. Does anyone stand to make money by conducting such studies? Scientists aren't gonna do it just for fun or even to learn something. They'll only do it if they get paid. And the people paying them will only do it if they get paid even more.

I understand that scientists working with the Yamazaki baking co. in Japan have pioneered methods of detection of residual bromate in baked goods. Publications are available online (at a fee of course) but from what I can deduce as a lay person from the abstracts, some work has been done to investigate factors which can reduce residual levels.


Offline Don K

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Re: All Trumps Bromated = Magic Pizza Dust
« Reply #21 on: August 05, 2012, 03:47:49 PM »
Here in Mexico bromated flour is banned so Azodicarbonamide is used in just about every flour brand I've used or looked at expect for cake flours, finely ground low protein flours.  I've wondered why it's not more widely used North of me.
Don

I wonder how long it will be before they kill some rats with it too and call for it to be banned.
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Offline Pappy

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Re: All Trumps Bromated = Magic Pizza Dust
« Reply #22 on: August 05, 2012, 04:18:20 PM »
According to Peter's extraordinarily diligent research efforts, it seems that the original Lombardi's used a bleached and bromated flour with a protein content around 12-13%.  This information can be found at reply 44 http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,14920.40.html

While not at All Trumps level, this is a good, strong percentage in line with many of today's bread flours, such as Harvest King.  I must confess I am surprised by this information, as I have always assumed that bromate came with All Trumps, and did not precede it. 

If Peter is correct, bromated flour was part of the original incarnation of NY-style pizza.  Given that the original formulas, for Lombardi's, and Totonno's, and Patsy's, etc., are the holy grail of pizza making, and given that bromated flour has been in common commercial use for over 100 years, one would think that bromated flour would be given more than a passing nod by the popularizers, given that pizza dough at its best comprises four ingredients.  A guy like Reinhart will spend half a page on diastatic malt powder, the use of which is almost completely unnecessary in the U.S.; blather on for pages about the difference between a poolish and a biga; and go into orgasms over his fatuous and bastardized pain l'ancienne method; yet he cannot offer an informed, historical, dispassionate disquisition on the one product that would do more for the average home baker than any of these complicated and often esoteric baking methods.  I must ask why.

Certainly health concerns cannot be factor.  California may have banned bromate, but the rest of the country is usually unconcerned about that soon-to-be bankrupt state's fads and obsessions.  I'm sure Peter Reinhart or Alton Brown would have no problem recommending a good craft beer to go with their artisanal pizza formulation, but that toxic beverage can be proven to have caused more deaths in one year than bromate has caused in a century of use. 

I'm a free market kind of a guy, and Reinhart and his ilk have every right to sell books and make  great living.  They have, in many ways, done much good.  But they are, in many ways, elitist and gnostic, with their own private language and ritual.  That's all well and good, but it is instructive to remember that simplicity is key, and that popularization is not necessarily vulgar or decadent.

Thought for the day:

Given that the original Lombardi's used bromated flour, if this were France, would bromated flour be mandated by law, if one wanted to call one's product NY-style?       

Online Pete-zza

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Re: All Trumps Bromated = Magic Pizza Dust
« Reply #23 on: August 05, 2012, 04:34:28 PM »
My question is, why haven't there been any studies done where they do chemical analysis of actual baked goods to determine how much KBrO3 is actually still present after baking? AFAIK, there haven't been any such published studies

Don,

There have been such studies. I recall that I found a document that addressed the remnant bromates in bread when I had an exchange with Buddy's, the Detroit pizza operator, and reported on same at Reply 125 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,3783.msg81422/topicseen.html#msg81422. When I tried to call up the pdf document referenced in that post, it was unavailable or else I would have to register or maybe even pay to look at relevant documents. However, I went to the Wayback Machine and found the document in their archives at http://web.archive.org/web/20100508190221/http://www.aaccnet.org/cerealchemistry/backissues/1960/chem37_573.pdf. Hopefully, that link will work (you should click on the Impatient link).

To Pappy's point, you will be hard pressed to find any cookbook author advocating that its readers use bromated flours. Cookbooks are directed to ordinary people, and publishers won't let authors publish books that call for ingredients that ordinary consumers cannot find at their local supermarkets.

Peter

enter8

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Re: All Trumps Bromated = Magic Pizza Dust
« Reply #24 on: August 05, 2012, 04:37:34 PM »
Don,

There have been such studies. I recall that I found a document that addressed the remnant bromates in bread when I had an exchange with Buddy's, the Detroit pizza operator, and reported on same at Reply 125 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,3783.msg81422/topicseen.html#msg81422. When I tried to call up the pdf document referenced in that post, it was unavailable or else I would have to register or maybe even pay to look at relevant documents. However, I went to the Wayback Machine and found the document in their archives at http://web.archive.org/web/20100508190221/http://www.aaccnet.org/cerealchemistry/backissues/1960/chem37_573.pdf. Hopefully, that link will work (you should click on the Impatient link).

To Pappy's point, you will be hard pressed to find any cookbook author advocating that its readers use bromated flours. Cookbooks are directed to ordinary people, and publishers won't let authors publish books that call for ingredients that ordinary consumers cannot find at their local supermarkets.

Peter

Peter, is this the article?
http://www.aaccnet.org/publications/cc/backissues/1960/Documents/chem37_573.pdf

That link should work.

enter8

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Re: All Trumps Bromated = Magic Pizza Dust
« Reply #25 on: August 05, 2012, 04:40:20 PM »
Link to the abstract of a paper detailing a modern (1997-2000?) method for residual bromate detection:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/10772172

Online Pete-zza

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Re: All Trumps Bromated = Magic Pizza Dust
« Reply #26 on: August 05, 2012, 04:42:11 PM »
Peter, is this the article?
http://www.aaccnet.org/publications/cc/backissues/1960/Documents/chem37_573.pdf

That link should work.

enter8,

That's it. Thank you. Now we have two ways to find it. ;D

Peter

Offline Pappy

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Re: All Trumps Bromated = Magic Pizza Dust
« Reply #27 on: August 05, 2012, 05:26:00 PM »
To summarize the study in question:

A dough made with flour that has a bromate quantitiy of 10 ppm retains 3.84 ppm bromate after five minutes of baking at 220C (428F).  A dough made with flour that has a bromate quantity of 20 ppm retains 11.01 ppm bromate after five minutes of baking at 220C (428F).  Beyond five minutes of baking, there is zero.

General Mills bromated flours contain 8-16 ppm bromate.

This study by Bushuk and Hlynka contradicts an earlier study by Lee and Tkachuk that found greater quantities of residual bromate in baked dough.  When given the opportunity to respond, Lee and Tkachuk confirmed the later study, and admitted their error in an addendum.

This study says nothing about sub five minute bakes at temperatures higher than 428F.  I'd like to see one.

Quote
Cookbooks are directed to ordinary people, and publishers won't let authors publish books that call for ingredients that ordinary consumers cannot find at their local supermarkets.

Diastatic malt is available at Kroger?   ???

 

Online Pete-zza

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Re: All Trumps Bromated = Magic Pizza Dust
« Reply #28 on: August 05, 2012, 05:40:23 PM »
Pappy,

I was referring to bromated flours.

I doubt that you will find diastatic barley malt at Kroger. Likewise for nondiastatic malt. However, there are many online sources for either form of malt. Some flours are unmalted, such as 00 flours and a few specialty flours (such as some organic flours), but the bulk of professional flours are malted.

Peter

Offline slybarman

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Re: All Trumps Bromated = Magic Pizza Dust
« Reply #29 on: August 05, 2012, 05:47:30 PM »
I will be making my first pizza with AT bromated in about an hour. Oven is pre-heating right now. Fingers crossed.
Mine are 58% hydration. 2% of each salt, sugar and oil.
« Last Edit: August 05, 2012, 05:50:59 PM by slybarman »


Online Pete-zza

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Re: All Trumps Bromated = Magic Pizza Dust
« Reply #30 on: August 05, 2012, 06:06:32 PM »
I will be making my first pizza with AT bromated in about an hour. Oven is pre-heating right now. Fingers crossed.
Mine are 58% hydration. 2% of each salt, sugar and oil.

No yeast?

Peter

Offline slybarman

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Re: All Trumps Bromated = Magic Pizza Dust
« Reply #31 on: August 05, 2012, 06:18:33 PM »
Huh, maybe that is why it looks like a cracker.  ;D

Yes, 0.35 of IDY yeast and a 3 day cold rise.

Offline slybarman

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Re: All Trumps Bromated = Magic Pizza Dust
« Reply #32 on: August 05, 2012, 07:23:52 PM »
Hands down the best crust I have made so far. Has the closest taste and texture to my local pizzeria. Crust is airy despite poor dough handling on my part.

OK - the last one is a bit too airy.
« Last Edit: August 07, 2012, 03:56:27 PM by slybarman »

Offline Don K

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Re: All Trumps Bromated = Magic Pizza Dust
« Reply #33 on: August 06, 2012, 02:39:59 PM »
I also agree,excellent stuff! I ordered 2 Bags(5lbs each) of AT flour,one bromated,the other not.They made some of the best pies I ever eaten.I plan to order a 50 lb bag eventually.Im using Bouncer and sometimes KABF,but I really love the AT.

 :)
So you've made pies from both All Trumps bromated and unbromated? How did they compare?
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Offline Ev

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Re: All Trumps Bromated = Magic Pizza Dust
« Reply #34 on: August 06, 2012, 09:57:23 PM »
I'm sorry, and I hate to be contrary, but I've used both AT bleached and bromated and KASL, and I'd be hard pressed to tell them apart. I use KASL now, just because I've had lung cancer once already and would just as soon not have to deal with that again if I can help it.
 I'd put my KASL pies up against anyones AT pies for handling, workability, oven-spring or flavor. Just sayin' ;D

Offline Don K

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Re: All Trumps Bromated = Magic Pizza Dust
« Reply #35 on: August 06, 2012, 11:16:16 PM »
I'm sorry, and I hate to be contrary, but I've used both AT bleached and bromated and KASL, and I'd be hard pressed to tell them apart. I use KASL now, just because I've had lung cancer once already and would just as soon not have to deal with that again if I can help it.
 I'd put my KASL pies up against anyones AT pies for handling, workability, oven-spring or flavor. Just sayin' ;D
I used to use KASL when I could get it locally, but when the store that I bought it at stopped selling it I started using KABF. The KASL was definitely better than the KABF for workability, spring, etc., but I still say that the AT bromated was better than the KASL. Perhaps your skills are better than mine Steve.
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Offline Ev

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Re: All Trumps Bromated = Magic Pizza Dust
« Reply #36 on: August 07, 2012, 07:30:38 AM »
Naw, just lucky I guess. ;D

Online Pete-zza

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Re: All Trumps Bromated = Magic Pizza Dust
« Reply #37 on: August 07, 2012, 09:57:08 AM »
From a performance standpoint, Steve's (Ev's) experience with the All Trumps bromated flour seems to mirror that of Tom Lehmann, as discussed in the following PMQ Think Tank thread started by one of our members (franko9752): http://thinktank.pmq.com/viewtopic.php?p=78733#p78733.

Peter

Offline Don K

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Re: All Trumps Bromated = Magic Pizza Dust
« Reply #38 on: August 07, 2012, 10:37:13 AM »
From a performance standpoint, Steve's (Ev's) experience with the All Trumps bromated flour seems to mirror that of Tom Lehmann, as discussed in the following PMQ Think Tank thread started by one of our members (franko9752): http://thinktank.pmq.com/viewtopic.php?p=78733#p78733.

Peter
The discussion on the PMQ Think Tank was AT bromated vs. AT non-bromated. Steve was comparing AT bromated to KASL. I've never used AT non-bromated so I can't compare it to KASL. I have used KASL and it is definitely a good flour but IMHO the AT bromated performed better. My opinion is based on one batch though, maybe I got lucky. I will be making another batch Thursday, so I'll find out.

Maybe some side-by-side comparisons are in order; AT bromated vs. KASL, or AT bromated vs. AT non-bromated. Where is a good place to buy KASL online? I can't find it anywhere near me. I hate paying more for shipping than the flour.
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Offline Ev

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Re: All Trumps Bromated = Magic Pizza Dust
« Reply #39 on: August 07, 2012, 11:02:49 AM »
My experience is based on a 50# bag of AT, 2-4 pies at a time, and switching to 50# bags of KASL. At some point I know I had both at the same time and couldn't tell them apart. I'm sure other factors come into play such as specific dough formulas, oven characteristics, baking stones et.cetera.


 

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