Author Topic: Aurelios Pizza Perfected!  (Read 25898 times)

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Offline Aimless Ryan

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Re: Chicago Style Italian Sausage
« Reply #25 on: August 13, 2012, 05:34:18 PM »
But something tells me you already know that Ryan.

I'm gonna defer commenting on that until people start calling me an idiot for helping spread the universe's most egregious pizza myth.

(By the way, what does egregious mean?)
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Offline Chicago Bob

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Re: Chicago Style Italian Sausage
« Reply #26 on: August 13, 2012, 05:48:30 PM »
I'm gonna defer commenting on that until people start calling me an idiot for helping spread the universe's most egregious pizza myth.

(By the way, what does egregious mean?)
Uuuuum...gee-whiz, I kinda think it's sorta like when a guy is act'in like a Dufus....not sure... ;D
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Offline ThatsAmore

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Re: Aurelios Pizza Perfected!
« Reply #27 on: August 13, 2012, 07:50:02 PM »
I'll have to give this recipe a try.

I love spicy Italian sausage.

The last time I made it, I ran it through my sausage stuffer attachment on my KA mixer and made logs in which I lightly froze and then I cut into nice uniform pieces.  If you look at pic #1, you can see the fennel  8)
Who put that pie in my eye ?

Offline Chicago Bob

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Re: Aurelios Pizza Perfected!
« Reply #28 on: August 13, 2012, 08:11:43 PM »
Look'in real good there Dino!   :chef:
Have you ever heard of the trick where you leave out the cutter wheel to get a courser grind?
One of our members,"Meatballs", Ron is a home beer brewer and also knows his stuff about grinding meat. Check Cory's off topic hamburger grinding thread if you'd like.... ;)
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Offline OTRChef

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Re: Aurelios Pizza Perfected!
« Reply #29 on: August 13, 2012, 08:39:23 PM »
Look'in real good there Dino!   :chef:
Have you ever heard of the trick where you leave out the cutter wheel to get a courser grind?
One of our members,"Meatballs", Ron is a home beer brewer and also knows his stuff about grinding meat. Check Cory's off topic hamburger grinding thread if you'd like.... ;)

Damn you....I like to leave out the cutter wheeel for the 1st grind, then I refrigerate the grind for at least 2 hours and grind it again using the coarse grind wheel! Quit giving away my secrets... ;D

Offline ThatsAmore

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Re: Aurelios Pizza Perfected!
« Reply #30 on: August 13, 2012, 09:40:50 PM »
Look'in real good there Dino!   :chef:
Have you ever heard of the trick where you leave out the cutter wheel to get a courser grind?
One of our members,"Meatballs", Ron is a home beer brewer and also knows his stuff about grinding meat. Check Cory's off topic hamburger grinding thread if you'd like.... ;)

Thanks for the tip and suggestions.  I made that batch by myself.  Talk about spinning plates  :-D
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Offline Chicago Bob

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Re: Aurelios Pizza Perfected!
« Reply #31 on: August 13, 2012, 09:52:51 PM »
Thanks for the tip and suggestions.  I made that batch by myself.  Talk about spinning plates  :-D
Good for you druddah! Looks to be bout 5 pounds alone there just on the cutt'in board. Gotta love dat fennel, eh?   :chef:

BTW, thanks for giving me OTR's secret about leaving the cutting wheel out!!    :-D
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Offline Garvey

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Re: Aurelios Pizza Perfected!
« Reply #32 on: August 14, 2012, 09:28:10 PM »
Tender Quick?  Why not just regular salt?  Italian sausage isn't usually cured, from what I understand, so why go the nitrates route?  How does it differ?

Thanks,
Garvey

Offline OTRChef

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Re: Aurelios Pizza Perfected!
« Reply #33 on: August 15, 2012, 08:01:31 AM »
Tender Quick?  Why not just regular salt?  Italian sausage isn't usually cured, from what I understand, so why go the nitrates route?  How does it differ?

Thanks,
Garvey

Nitrates and/or nitrites are used in the making of Italian sausage. Nitrate and Nitrite Compounds not only help kill bacteria, but also produce a characteristic flavor, and give meat a pink or red color.
Botulism in Latin is "botulus"...or "sausage". This probably refers to the shape of the organism, but the irony is, sausage making can easily produce this serious illness, not to mention E. coli infections also!
BTW, the dextrose in Morton's also helps to ferment beneficial bacteria such as lactobacilli. This process is in fact a form of fermentation, and, in addition to reducing further the ability of the spoilage bacteria to grow - it also gives the sausage it's characteristic flavor!
Especially for the home sausage maker, where sterile equipment is seldom used, I highly recommend the use of Morton's Tender Quick!


Offline Chicago Bob

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Re: Aurelios Pizza Perfected!
« Reply #34 on: August 15, 2012, 12:04:31 PM »
I am really curios about this stuff....particularly this "characteristic flavor" aspect you have mention several times.Is this type of curing salt used in all commercial sausage?
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Offline OTRChef

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Re: Aurelios Pizza Perfected!
« Reply #35 on: August 15, 2012, 05:07:45 PM »
I am really curios about this stuff....particularly this "characteristic flavor" aspect you have mention several times.Is this type of curing salt used in all commercial sausage?

Tender Quick, Prague Powder, or proprietary blends using nitrates/nitrites are most definitely are used in commercial sausage. "Uncured" brands still use celery juice, which is a natural source of nitrates: http://ask.applegate.com/applegate/topics/do_applegate_products_contain_nitrites_or_nitrates?utm_medium=widget&utm_source=widget_applegate&from_gsfn=true
« Last Edit: August 15, 2012, 05:11:23 PM by OTRChef »

Offline Chicago Bob

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Re: Aurelios Pizza Perfected!
« Reply #36 on: August 15, 2012, 05:20:25 PM »
Oh I am definitely going to try this, I 've made pizza sausage only a few times and I am trying to envision the flavor change that this product is going to bring to the pallete. Not a fan of commercial It. sausage so I'm jus having a hard time understanding what you mean by "characteristic flavor"...guess I'll be finding out.... ;)
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Offline juniorballoon

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Re: Aurelios Pizza Perfected!
« Reply #37 on: August 15, 2012, 06:55:11 PM »
Curious why you use Mortons Tender Quick? I've never seen a fresh sausage that used nitrates and nitrites. Doesn't really seem neccesary from a preserving point with fresh, but maybe it would do something with taste and color.

jb

Offline vcb

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Re: Chicago Style Italian Sausage
« Reply #38 on: August 16, 2012, 01:03:07 AM »
Chicago's Italian sausage is well known for it's high fennel content. The only sausage maker that I know of in Chicago that does not use a lot of fennel is Bobaks.


For most Chicago thin crust pizzas, I'd agree about the fennel, but deep dish has always been a different animal.
If you're trying to match the taste of a Uno's or Malnati's, leave out the fennel.
I'm happy with it either way, and prefer italian sausage with fennel on thin crust.

There's a Malnati's Sausage thread here: http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=12222.0
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Offline OTRChef

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Re: Aurelios Pizza Perfected!
« Reply #39 on: August 16, 2012, 07:38:26 AM »
Curious why you use Mortons Tender Quick? I've never seen a fresh sausage that used nitrates and nitrites. Doesn't really seem neccesary from a preserving point with fresh, but maybe it would do something with taste and color.

jb

Creating fresh sausage also creates the kind of anaerobic environment food poisoning pathogens thrive in. Most of us make more sausage than is needed for a single pizza, so storing it IS an issue. Besides, gray sausage is unappealing.

Read this: http://www.extension.umn.edu/distribution/nutrition/DJ0974.html
« Last Edit: August 16, 2012, 07:41:12 AM by OTRChef »

Offline OTRChef

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Re: Chicago Style Italian Sausage
« Reply #40 on: August 16, 2012, 07:58:13 AM »
For most Chicago thin crust pizzas, I'd agree about the fennel, but deep dish has always been a different animal.
If you're trying to match the taste of a Uno's or Malnati's, leave out the fennel.
I'm happy with it either way, and prefer italian sausage with fennel on thin crust.

There's a Malnati's Sausage thread here: http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=12222.0

From what I've seen in this forum, there are many people here who are capable of making BETTER pizzas than the popular pizzerias. With that said, I have never been a fan of Uno's or Malnati's...so I for one am not about to match their tastes!

Offline juniorballoon

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Re: Aurelios Pizza Perfected!
« Reply #41 on: August 16, 2012, 10:56:56 AM »
Creating fresh sausage also creates the kind of anaerobic environment food poisoning pathogens thrive in. Most of us make more sausage than is needed for a single pizza, so storing it IS an issue. Besides, gray sausage is unappealing.

Read this: http://www.extension.umn.edu/distribution/nutrition/DJ0974.html

It's my understanding that unless your storing/curing/smoking the sausage at temps between 40 and 140, nitrates and nitrites are not needed for preservation. The nitrites will certainly help keep the pink color, but I am not aware of the nitrates doing anything. Always looking to learn. How are you storing your sausage?

Thanks,
jb
« Last Edit: August 16, 2012, 11:00:13 AM by juniorballoon »


Offline OTRChef

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Re: Aurelios Pizza Perfected!
« Reply #42 on: August 16, 2012, 12:43:36 PM »
It's my understanding that unless your storing/curing/smoking the sausage at temps between 40 and 140, nitrates and nitrites are not needed for preservation. The nitrites will certainly help keep the pink color, but I am not aware of the nitrates doing anything. Always looking to learn. How are you storing your sausage?

Thanks,
jb

I vacuum freeze my sausage for storage.

From the article I posted (link)...

What Nitrite Does in Meat

"Nitrite in meat greatly delays development of botulinal toxin (botulism), develops cured meat flavor and color, retards development of rancidity and off-odors and off-flavors during storage, inhibits development of warmed-over flavor, and preserves flavors of spices, smoke, etc."

I can't say it any better than that!

Here is a quote from another article:

"Sausages are the second biggest source of food contamination and food poisoning, secondly only to home-canned food products. Ground and moist meat is held inside of the sausage casing and given proper conditions can lead to sausage poisoning. Without proper development conditions, C. botulinum bacteria lay low in a spore form, and can remain dormant for years. To grow, these bacteria require a slightly acidic, oxygen free environment that is warm (40-120F) and moist, which is exactly what happens when we make our own meats, especially the smoked ones."

Question: do you check the temperature of the sausage on your pizza before serving it? Do you check the temperature of your refrigerator where you store the sausage? Can you guarantee the meat you just bought to grind was stored properly? Do you sterilize all your cutting boards, knives, bowls, and grinding/stuffing attachments? The botulism toxin is denatured at 185F. However, staphylococcus toxin denatures at 240F. It only makes sense to keep on the safe side of food preparation.

FYI...commercially, ground beef (hamburger) is the biggest offender of food poisoning. Note that nitrates/nitrites are NOT used in ground beef.
« Last Edit: August 16, 2012, 01:15:40 PM by OTRChef »

Offline Chicago Bob

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Re: Aurelios Pizza Perfected!
« Reply #43 on: August 16, 2012, 12:53:21 PM »
I think that what jb, and myself included, are interested in is whether we need to be adding more chemicals to home made sausage if it is going straight into a freezer.Your reference article(thanks) seems to be addressing only other types of meat.
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Offline OTRChef

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Re: Aurelios Pizza Perfected!
« Reply #44 on: August 16, 2012, 01:19:02 PM »
I think that what jb, and myself included, are interested in is whether we need to be adding more chemicals to home made sausage if it is going straight into a freezer.Your reference article(thanks) seems to be addressing only other types of meat.

Read the modified post above Bob.
« Last Edit: August 16, 2012, 01:23:07 PM by OTRChef »

Offline juniorballoon

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Re: Aurelios Pizza Perfected!
« Reply #45 on: August 16, 2012, 01:41:23 PM »
Read the modified post above Bob.

OTR,

I'm truly not trying to get into a "You're wrong I'm right" argument about this. I just wanted to understand what your reasoning was. Thanks for the above post as it clarifies what your goal was in adding the nitrates and nitrites. Personally I'm not concerned with botulism in fresh sausage and don't feel the need to add the extra chemicals.

As always everyone should do their own research and do what makes them comfortable, but it's my understanding it's the nitrite that inhibits the growth of botulism. Nitrates are used for longer cured meats, salami and ham, where in they break down into nitrites, like a time released cure, to inhibit botulism over a longer period.

As for the coloring and flavor enhancement the nitrites certainly play a role, but nitrates won't do much. You could use a Cure#1, which is only salt and nitrites to accomplish that goal and avoid the nitrates. Which is not to imply I think there is something terrible about eating nitrates. They're found in abundance in leafy green vegetables, and celery that we eat all the time. The issue comes when you heat nitrates to over 500 degrees where they can produce nitrosamines that have been linked to cancer. I'm also not overly worried about the big C either. My bottom line is if it's not creating flavor or safety you don't need it.

Thanks,
jb

Offline Chicago Bob

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Re: Aurelios Pizza Perfected!
« Reply #46 on: August 16, 2012, 02:04:17 PM »
All I am trying to get at is when you are freezing the sausage right away do you need the chemicals? I'm not freezing bad meat but I seem to remember something said on this forum(maybe Peter) that you can possibly have some bacteria in the meat that you are unable to taste/tell while it is still fresh(your cooked taste sample) and then even though you freeze it it does not stop the bad stuff from still growing.
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Offline juniorballoon

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Re: Aurelios Pizza Perfected!
« Reply #47 on: August 16, 2012, 02:34:47 PM »
All I am trying to get at is when you are freezing the sausage right away do you need the chemicals? I'm not freezing bad meat but I seem to remember something said on this forum(maybe Peter) that you can possibly have some bacteria in the meat that you are unable to taste/tell while it is still fresh(your cooked taste sample) and then even though you freeze it it does not stop the bad stuff from still growing.

Here's a link and a quote from wiki:

"Food-borne botulism usually results from ingestion of food that has become contaminated with spores (such as a perforated can) in an anaerobic environment, allowing the spores to germinate and grow. The growing (vegetative) bacteria produce toxin. It is the ingestion of preformed toxin that causes botulism, not the ingestion of the spores or the vegetative bacteria. Infant and wound botulism both result from infection with spores, which subsequently germinate, resulting in production of toxin and the symptoms of botulism.

Proper refrigeration at temperatures below 3 C (38 F) retards the growth of Clostridium botulinum. The organism is also susceptible to high salt and low pH levels. The toxin itself is rapidly destroyed by heat, such as in thorough cooking.[33] On the other hand, the spores that produce the toxin are heat-tolerant and will survive boiling water for an extended period of time.[34] Fortunately, ingestion of the spores is safe, except in infants, as the highly oxygenated and highly acidic environment of an adult human digestive system prevents the spores from growing and producing the botulinum toxin"

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Botulinum_toxin

The article that OTR quotes , http://www.wedlinydomowe.com/sausage-making/meat-safety/botulism , states that between 1975- 92 there were 534 cases in the US. It's very rare.

As long as you don't leave the meat in the danger zone you will be safe IMHO.  One thing I haven't been able to find a stat on is how long food has to be in the danger zone, with the botulism bacteria present, before it will even produce minimal symptoms. The USDA states that you shouldn't leave meat out at room temp for more than 2 hours. I'm sure you'd have to leave it out much longer than that to get even close to toxic.

Would love to hear what Peter thinks on this as he is a very learned man.

jb

Offline Chicago Bob

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Re: Aurelios Pizza Perfected!
« Reply #48 on: August 16, 2012, 03:07:19 PM »
spores, which subsequently germinate, resulting in production of toxin and the symptoms of botulism.

Proper refrigeration at temperatures below 3 °C (38 °F) retards the growth of Clostridium botulinum.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Botulinum_toxin

.

Would love to hear what Peter thinks on this as he is a very learned man.

jb
+1 on Peter... ;)

edit: red highlight is mine
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Online Pete-zza

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Re: Aurelios Pizza Perfected!
« Reply #49 on: August 16, 2012, 04:31:09 PM »
Would love to hear what Peter thinks on this as he is a very learned man.

If I am the "Peter" you have in mind, I'm afraid that I cannot be of any help. I do not have any knowledge in this area.

Peter