Author Topic: Aurelios Pizza Perfected! (Read 10434 times)

OTRChef · « **Reply #40 on:** August 16, 2012, 07:58:13 AM »

Quote from: vcb on August 16, 2012, 01:03:07 AM

For most Chicago thin crust pizzas, I'd agree about the fennel, but deep dish has always been a different animal.
If you're trying to match the taste of a Uno's or Malnati's, leave out the fennel.
I'm happy with it either way, and prefer italian sausage with fennel on thin crust.

There's a Malnati's Sausage thread here: http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=12222.0

From what I've seen in this forum, there are many people here who are capable of making BETTER pizzas than the popular pizzerias. With that said, I have never been a fan of Uno's or Malnati's...so I for one am not about to match their tastes!

juniorballoon · « **Reply #41 on:** August 16, 2012, 10:56:56 AM »

Quote from: OTRChef on August 16, 2012, 07:38:26 AM

Creating fresh sausage also creates the kind of anaerobic environment food poisoning pathogens thrive in. Most of us make more sausage than is needed for a single pizza, so storing it IS an issue. Besides, gray sausage is unappealing.

Read this: http://www.extension.umn.edu/distribution/nutrition/DJ0974.html

It's my understanding that unless your storing/curing/smoking the sausage at temps between 40 and 140, nitrates and nitrites are not needed for preservation. The nitrites will certainly help keep the pink color, but I am not aware of the nitrates doing anything. Always looking to learn. How are you storing your sausage?

Thanks,
jb

OTRChef · « **Reply #42 on:** August 16, 2012, 12:43:36 PM »

Quote from: juniorballoon on August 16, 2012, 10:56:56 AM

It's my understanding that unless your storing/curing/smoking the sausage at temps between 40 and 140, nitrates and nitrites are not needed for preservation. The nitrites will certainly help keep the pink color, but I am not aware of the nitrates doing anything. Always looking to learn. How are you storing your sausage?

Thanks,
jb

I vacuum freeze my sausage for storage.

From the article I posted (link)...

What Nitrite Does in Meat

"Nitrite in meat greatly delays development of botulinal toxin (botulism), develops cured meat flavor and color, retards development of rancidity and off-odors and off-flavors during storage, inhibits development of warmed-over flavor, and preserves flavors of spices, smoke, etc."

I can't say it any better than that!

Here is a quote from another article:

"Sausages are the second biggest source of food contamination and food poisoning, secondly only to home-canned food products. Ground and moist meat is held inside of the sausage casing and given proper conditions can lead to sausage poisoning. Without proper development conditions, C. botulinum bacteria lay low in a spore form, and can remain dormant for years. To grow, these bacteria require a slightly acidic, oxygen free environment that is warm (40°-120°F) and moist, which is exactly what happens when we make our own meats, especially the smoked ones."

Question: do you check the temperature of the sausage on your pizza before serving it? Do you check the temperature of your refrigerator where you store the sausage? Can you guarantee the meat you just bought to grind was stored properly? Do you sterilize all your cutting boards, knives, bowls, and grinding/stuffing attachments? The botulism toxin is denatured at 185F. However, staphylococcus toxin denatures at 240F. It only makes sense to keep on the safe side of food preparation.

FYI...commercially, ground beef (hamburger) is the biggest offender of food poisoning. Note that nitrates/nitrites are NOT used in ground beef.

Chicago Bob · « **Reply #43 on:** August 16, 2012, 12:53:21 PM »

I think that what jb, and myself included, are interested in is whether we need to be adding more chemicals to home made sausage if it is going straight into a freezer.Your reference article(thanks) seems to be addressing only other types of meat.

OTRChef · « **Reply #44 on:** August 16, 2012, 01:19:02 PM »

Quote from: Chicago Bob on August 16, 2012, 12:53:21 PM

I think that what jb, and myself included, are interested in is whether we need to be adding more chemicals to home made sausage if it is going straight into a freezer.Your reference article(thanks) seems to be addressing only other types of meat.

Read the modified post above Bob.

juniorballoon · « **Reply #45 on:** August 16, 2012, 01:41:23 PM »

Quote from: OTRChef on August 16, 2012, 01:19:02 PM

Read the modified post above Bob.

OTR,

I'm truly not trying to get into a "You're wrong I'm right" argument about this. I just wanted to understand what your reasoning was. Thanks for the above post as it clarifies what your goal was in adding the nitrates and nitrites. Personally I'm not concerned with botulism in fresh sausage and don't feel the need to add the extra chemicals.

As always everyone should do their own research and do what makes them comfortable, but it's my understanding it's the nitrite that inhibits the growth of botulism. Nitrates are used for longer cured meats, salami and ham, where in they break down into nitrites, like a time released cure, to inhibit botulism over a longer period.

As for the coloring and flavor enhancement the nitrites certainly play a role, but nitrates won't do much. You could use a Cure#1, which is only salt and nitrites to accomplish that goal and avoid the nitrates. Which is not to imply I think there is something terrible about eating nitrates. They're found in abundance in leafy green vegetables, and celery that we eat all the time. The issue comes when you heat nitrates to over 500 degrees where they can produce nitrosamines that have been linked to cancer. I'm also not overly worried about the big C either. My bottom line is if it's not creating flavor or safety you don't need it.

Thanks,
jb

Chicago Bob · « **Reply #46 on:** August 16, 2012, 02:04:17 PM »

All I am trying to get at is when you are freezing the sausage right away do you need the chemicals? I'm not freezing bad meat but I seem to remember something said on this forum(maybe Peter) that you can possibly have some bacteria in the meat that you are unable to taste/tell while it is still fresh(your cooked taste sample) and then even though you freeze it it does not stop the bad stuff from still growing.

juniorballoon · « **Reply #47 on:** August 16, 2012, 02:34:47 PM »

Quote from: Chicago Bob on August 16, 2012, 02:04:17 PM

All I am trying to get at is when you are freezing the sausage right away do you need the chemicals? I'm not freezing bad meat but I seem to remember something said on this forum(maybe Peter) that you can possibly have some bacteria in the meat that you are unable to taste/tell while it is still fresh(your cooked taste sample) and then even though you freeze it it does not stop the bad stuff from still growing.

Here's a link and a quote from wiki:

"Food-borne botulism usually results from ingestion of food that has become contaminated with spores (such as a perforated can) in an anaerobic environment, allowing the spores to germinate and grow. The growing (vegetative) bacteria produce toxin. It is the ingestion of preformed toxin that causes botulism, not the ingestion of the spores or the vegetative bacteria. Infant and wound botulism both result from infection with spores, which subsequently germinate, resulting in production of toxin and the symptoms of botulism.

Proper refrigeration at temperatures below 3 °C (38 °F) retards the growth of Clostridium botulinum. The organism is also susceptible to high salt and low pH levels. The toxin itself is rapidly destroyed by heat, such as in thorough cooking.[33] On the other hand, the spores that produce the toxin are heat-tolerant and will survive boiling water for an extended period of time.[34] Fortunately, ingestion of the spores is safe, except in infants, as the highly oxygenated and highly acidic environment of an adult human digestive system prevents the spores from growing and producing the botulinum toxin"

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Botulinum_toxin

The article that OTR quotes , http://www.wedlinydomowe.com/sausage-making/meat-safety/botulism , states that between 1975- 92 there were 534 cases in the US. It's very rare.

As long as you don't leave the meat in the danger zone you will be safe IMHO. One thing I haven't been able to find a stat on is how long food has to be in the danger zone, with the botulism bacteria present, before it will even produce minimal symptoms. The USDA states that you shouldn't leave meat out at room temp for more than 2 hours. I'm sure you'd have to leave it out much longer than that to get even close to toxic.

Would love to hear what Peter thinks on this as he is a very learned man.

jb

Chicago Bob · « **Reply #48 on:** August 16, 2012, 03:07:19 PM »

Quote from: juniorballoon on August 16, 2012, 02:34:47 PM

spores, which subsequently germinate, resulting in production of toxin and the symptoms of botulism.

Proper refrigeration at temperatures below 3 °C (38 °F) retards the growth of Clostridium botulinum.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Botulinum_toxin

.

Would love to hear what Peter thinks on this as he is a very learned man.

jb

+1 on Peter...

edit: red highlight is mine

Pete-zza · « **Reply #49 on:** August 16, 2012, 04:31:09 PM »

Quote from: juniorballoon on August 16, 2012, 02:34:47 PM

Would love to hear what Peter thinks on this as he is a very learned man.

If I am the "Peter" you have in mind, I'm afraid that I cannot be of any help. I do not have any knowledge in this area.

Peter

juniorballoon · « **Reply #50 on:** August 16, 2012, 06:49:12 PM »

Quote from: Pete-zza on August 16, 2012, 04:31:09 PM

If I am the "Peter" you have in mind, I'm afraid that I cannot be of any help. I do not have any knowledge in this area.

Peter

You are the Peter in question. I am very disappointed in you.

From the reading I've done I have no fear that my home ground sausage that gets vaccum packed and tossed in the freezer will make anyone sick.

jb

OTRChef · « **Reply #51 on:** August 17, 2012, 07:33:41 AM »

There are 8 known pathogens that cause the majority of illnesses, hospitalizations, and deaths related to food poisoning or foodborne illnesses and botulism is NOT one of them. They include: Norovirus, Salmonella, Clostridium perforingens (nicknamed the “cafeteria germ”), Campylobacter spp, Staphylococcus aureus, Toxoplasma gondii, and Listeria monocytogenes.

•Approximately one in six Americans (48 million people) is sickened by foodborne illnesses every year.
•Roughly 128,000 people are hospitalized annually for foodborne illnesses.
•The Centers for Disease Control and Prevention estimated that more than 3,000 people would die due to food poisoning or foodborne illnesses in 2011.

Altogether there are 31 known pathogens that cause food poisoning, of which botulism is one. There are also many unknown pathogens.

Having been a biochemist/microbiologist and professionally trained in food preparation, I lean towards taking every precaution in food prep. Besides, I like the way my sausage tastes and would not change anything. I'm 63yo and have been making my own sausage for 40 years. I have not had any problems with adding nitrates/nitrites to food. Heck, I even eat MSG! The same people who would tell you nitrates/nitrites are no good are the same people who told you margarine was better than butter!
BTW I use butter in my deep dish pizzas!

OTRChef · « **Reply #52 on:** August 17, 2012, 08:49:46 AM »

Just finished making 6lbs of sausage for my pizzas this weekend! I think I will make deep dish.

BTB · « **Reply #53 on:** August 17, 2012, 10:55:28 AM »

Quote from: OTRChef on August 16, 2012, 07:58:13 AM

From what I've seen in this forum, there are many people here who are capable of making BETTER pizzas than the popular pizzerias. With that said, I have never been a fan of Uno's or Malnati's...so I for one am not about to match their tastes!

I agree with the first sentence completely. And with the second sentence, I must say that while I love many styles of thick and thin Chicago styles pizzas, Uno's and Malnati's are among the best in the world IMHO and I even heard that they have special service of their pizzas up in heaven. I just had a Malnati's Chicago Style pizza with their great sausage brought to me last night and it was outstanding and . . . I felt like I was in heaven, too (lol! !).

I haven't followed the sausage postingsabove and will only add that the great sausage served on Malnati's and original Uno's/Due's is great without fennel and that the sausages served on the great Chicago thin crust pizzerias are great with either fennel or anise in the sausage. Try Fox's fantastic thin crust pizza in Oak Lawn with anise and not fennel. One of Chicago's 5 BEST thin crust pizzas (only a couple of miles from the great original Vito & Nicks). And further regarding use of good sausage, I've found that freezing good sausage in airtight methods is still only good for 2 or maybe 3 weeks before it starts to taste bad. Fresher sausage is a plus. And I know nothing about the chemicals.

BTB · « **Reply #54 on:** August 17, 2012, 10:57:36 AM »

Speaking of Aurelio's (at which I've eaten at the original for over 50 years, too), I was at Silver Beach Pizza in St. Joseph, MI the other week and their pizza is almost identical to Aurelio's. They are part of a small Indiana pizza chain that has apparently successfully duplicated something very close to an Aurelio's pizza. I think in a taste test between the two, one could close their eyes while sampling a piece of pizza from each and have a difficult time telling the difference. At least IMO

juniorballoon · « **Reply #55 on:** August 17, 2012, 11:00:50 AM »

And I'll bet that deep dish will be a very tasty pie.

jb

OTRChef · « **Reply #56 on:** August 17, 2012, 01:14:54 PM »

Quote from: BTB on August 17, 2012, 10:55:28 AM

I agree with the first sentence completely. And with the second sentence, I must say that while I love many styles of thick and thin Chicago styles pizzas, Uno's and Malnati's are among the best in the world IMHO and I even heard that they have special service of their pizzas up in heaven. I just had a Malnati's Chicago Style pizza with their great sausage brought to me last night and it was outstanding and . . . I felt like I was in heaven, too (lol! !).

I haven't followed the sausage postingsabove and will only add that the great sausage served on Malnati's and original Uno's/Due's is great without fennel and that the sausages served on the great Chicago thin crust pizzerias are great with either fennel or anise in the sausage. Try Fox's fantastic thin crust pizza in Oak Lawn with anise and not fennel. One of Chicago's 5 BEST thin crust pizzas (only a couple of miles from the great original Vito & Nicks). And further regarding use of good sausage, I've found that freezing good sausage in airtight methods is still only good for 2 or maybe 3 weeks before it starts to taste bad. Fresher sausage is a plus. And I know nothing about the chemicals.

I've eaten at Fox's many times. I believe they also have a place in Orland Park too. GREAT pizza!

OTRChef · « **Reply #57 on:** August 17, 2012, 01:17:24 PM »

Quote from: juniorballoon on August 17, 2012, 11:00:50 AM

And I'll bet that deep dish will be a very tasty pie.

jb

I'm sure it will. I may even reveal MY crust recipe here!

Chicago Bob · « **Reply #58 on:** August 17, 2012, 01:29:59 PM »

Quote from: OTRChef on August 17, 2012, 01:17:24 PM

I'm sure it will. I may even reveal MY crust recipe here!

I'm looking forward to that, OTR, please do...

Chicago Bob · « **Reply #59 on:** August 17, 2012, 01:40:16 PM »

OTR,
In your reply #18, last weekends bake you used 2 different methods...have you ever done your Aurelios style straight onto the stone, no parbaked crust?
http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,20346.msg201701.html#msg201701