Author Topic: Dough Recipe for MPO  (Read 7480 times)

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Offline TXCraig1

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Re: Dough Recipe for MPO
« Reply #60 on: August 28, 2012, 10:01:18 PM »
OK, I'm done.

Here's what I did: I took a "one cup" measuring cup and set it on my scale. Tared it to 0. Filled with water until it was almost overflowing. Then I filled very slowly until the water overflowed. Once the water finished dripping over the edge of the scale, I tapped the mechanical scale lightly.

I did this again with a different "one cup" measuring cup, and then again with a third "one cup" measuring cup.

The first "one cup" weighed 8.75 oz.
The second "one cup" weighed 8.10 oz.
The third "one cup" weighed 8.63 oz.

Just in case I did something wrong, I did it all over again.

8.75 oz.
8.14 oz.
8.52 oz.

Obviously there was a little bit of error on my part between the first and second scaling of the third measuring cup, but it's still very minor and insignificant. So I'd like to know how all three of these measuring cups are the exact same size but still manage to measure three considerably different amounts of water when filled to capacity.

Here is the problem; water has a property that flour doesn’t – surface tension. You can get a lot more than one cup of water to stay in a 1C dry measure. The shape of the top of your measuring cups (both plan view and edge design) probably explains the differences. Or maybe you have some poorly designed cups – the 8.14oz cup in particular?

I put 236.2g of water (exactly 1 cup at room temp) in each of my measuring cups. One is oval, and the other is round. Both looked almost full but with just a tiny bit of space at the edge of the rim – but you have to consider surface tension – the water is higher in the center than at the edge. Therefore, both were exactly full with 8.0 fl oz of water (236.6ml) which weighs 8.34oz avoirdupois.

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Offline Aimless Ryan

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Re: Dough Recipe for MPO
« Reply #61 on: August 28, 2012, 10:23:18 PM »
Here is the problem; water has a property that flour doesn’t

Here's the problem: The cups do not hold the same capacity.

Offline TXCraig1

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Re: Dough Recipe for MPO
« Reply #62 on: August 29, 2012, 08:39:42 AM »
Here's the problem: The cups do not hold the same capacity.

Buy higher quality equipment.
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Offline MightyPizzaOven

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Re: Dough Recipe for MPO
« Reply #63 on: August 29, 2012, 09:05:00 AM »
I started an FAQ that I will post on MPO Facebook page and eventually on MPO website... This kind of of issue or recommendation will be included. It will be updated or expanded to address new question or concerns.

One of the thing I done regarding flour measurement, I store my flour in a big plastic container, that I shake and flip few time before scooping 1 cup of flour and remove excess flour by sliding a knife over the measuring cup.

This kind of recommendation and a warning that all cups measurement are not equal... and point that there are two ways to measure. One is more accurate than the other.

This information will be available to all users. It will be up to them to decide which way to go. Some may prefer one over the other.

Breakfast was great, I used toaster oven to heat up my last two pieces…   :pizza::D ;D

Gene, I will probably need 24 step intervention   :)
Bert,

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Re: Dough Recipe for MPO
« Reply #64 on: August 29, 2012, 09:46:40 AM »
Bert,

Not to belabor this matter any more than necessary, but I agree with the solutions mentioned by deb415611 (deb) and Craig. There may well be a time and place for baker's percents but I would perhaps put that matter on a rear burner for now and concentrate instead on perfecting your dough recipe. Even though not perfect, for all the reasons given by Ryan and others, I do not see any problem with using a dough recipe recited with volume measurements. Your target audience is more likely to be people who do not ordinarily work with weights of ingredients. If that is so, what I think is more important is that users of the recipe be told how the flour and water are measured out volumetrically. I agree with the others that it would also be a very good idea to give weight measurements for at least the flour and water since they are the two major ingredients by weight. The rest of the ingredients, especially at the single dough ball level, are usually quite small and might require a special scale and, for those ingredients, volume measurements might suffice.

In your case, I'd like to suggest that as you work on your dough recipe you convert your flour and water volume measurements to weights and write them down somewhere. As you prepare the doughs, you should also note any additional flour and/or water that you find necessary to achieve the desired final dough condition, even if is only fractions of a teaspoon. What you are looking for is the combination of weights of flour and water that produce the best results. At that point, it should be a fairly straightforward matter of converting those weights to volume measurements, and providing guidance on how to measure out those ingredients volumetrically. You might also recommend a flour to use, such as the KABF, since different brands of even the same type of flour can convert to different weights. I have done these sort of things many times on the forum. For example, see Reply 20 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,6758.msg59217.html#msg59217, Reply 722 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,576.msg65487/topicseen.html#msg65487, and Reply 28 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,6515.msg62814/topicseen.html#msg62814. In all of the above examples, I tested the conversions and they were close, actually, closer than I would have expected.

It is not lost on me how fickle different measuring spoons and cups can be in measuring out flour and water volumetrically and how their conversions from volumes to weights can be problematic. I have conducted countless conversions to confirm that. And I have written extensively on this subject. See, for example, Reply 13 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,4406.msg37640/topicseen.html#msg37640 and Reply 4 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,10212.msg89591/topicseen.html#msg89591.

I also agree with Craig on the water measurement issue. It is generally advised that people use different measuring cups for dry ingredients (usually the measuring cups without lips) and for liquids. In my case, I use a Pyrex measuring cup with a lip for water measurement. Technically, one is supposed to pour water into such a cup up to the desired marker level and view the water at eye level, with the cup on a flat surface. The reading should be of  the lower meniscus. Technically, 8 fluid ounces of water measured out that way should weigh 8.345 ounces, just as Craig noted. Very few people measure out water that way (most just eyeball it casually from above) so it is actually quite rare to end up with a weight of 8.345 ounces of water by weight. I have conducted many water measurement tests, and I usually get 8.1-8.2 ounces for 8 ounces of water by volume. As a result, I often split the difference and use 8.15 ounces (weight) for conversion purposes.

As I said above, I would spend my time trying to perfect your dough recipe and take notes of weights of flour and water. Once you find the best recipe, then the rest becomes a fairly simple exercise.

Peter

Offline TXCraig1

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Re: Dough Recipe for MPO
« Reply #65 on: August 29, 2012, 10:03:49 AM »
OK, I'm done.

Here's what I did: I took a "one cup" measuring cup and set it on my scale. Tared it to 0. Filled with water until it was almost overflowing. Then I filled very slowly until the water overflowed. Once the water finished dripping over the edge of the scale, I tapped the mechanical scale lightly.

I did this again with a different "one cup" measuring cup, and then again with a third "one cup" measuring cup.

The first "one cup" weighed 8.75 oz.
The second "one cup" weighed 8.10 oz.
The third "one cup" weighed 8.63 oz.

Just in case I did something wrong, I did it all over again.

8.75 oz.
8.14 oz.
8.52 oz.

Obviously there was a little bit of error on my part between the first and second scaling of the third measuring cup, but it's still very minor and insignificant. So I'd like to know how all three of these measuring cups are the exact same size but still manage to measure three considerably different amounts of water when filled to capacity.


Ryan,

I can say with fairly high confidence that your first and third cups – 8.75 and 8.63 oz mass (ozm) respectively – are accurate US “customary” Cups – 8 fluid oz (ozf). With surface tension allowing the Cup to hold more than 8ozf water, that is about what I can get my Cups to hold by casually pouring in water. Using a syringe to add water very slowly, I can get them right up to 9.0 ozm. If you do this again, notice the large dome of water over the rim of the Cup when it is “full.”

Metric, Imperial, and US “legal” Cups (none of which are commonly sold in the US) are all larger than a US Customary Cup. The only explanation I have for your 8.1ozm cup is that it was not properly designed. The minimum weight of water in any Cup measure should be 8.35ozm – that would be a perfect measurement of a customary cup - the smallest of the cups. If your measurement was accurate, that cup is defective. Can you post a picture of it?

If you convert your measurements to flour (assuming 155g/C which is about as dense as you can get flour), the difference between your first and third cup is 2.2g. The difference between the first and second is 12.1g. If you assume a more textbook measurement of flour at 124g/C, the difference between the first and third is 1.8g and first and second is 9.8g.

CL
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Offline MightyPizzaOven

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Re: Dough Recipe for MPO
« Reply #66 on: August 29, 2012, 10:49:26 AM »
Thanks Peter for the detail post... I agree.

I will try to read your refrenced post today.

Just quick question, regardless of what the recipe calls for flour and water, the end user may still need to make minor adjustment depending on their humidity level, Is this a correct statement? and if they don't, is that going to have any impact?
Bert,

Offline MightyPizzaOven

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Re: Dough Recipe for MPO
« Reply #67 on: August 29, 2012, 11:06:29 AM »
I guess instead of converting volume to weight, I should invest into a scale ... I am looking at this one http://www.amazon.com/My-Weigh-KD-8000-Bakers-Scale/dp/B001NE0FU2 any other recommendation?
Bert,

Offline TXCraig1

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Re: Dough Recipe for MPO
« Reply #68 on: August 29, 2012, 11:08:24 AM »
I guess instead of converting volume to weight, I should invest into a scale ... I am looking at this one http://www.amazon.com/My-Weigh-KD-8000-Bakers-Scale/dp/B001NE0FU2 any other recommendation?


You probably want one with 0.1g resolution. This is the one I use: http://www.amazon.com/American-Weigh-AMW-2000-Digital-Jewelry/dp/B000OIRSSU/?tag=pizzamaking-20
Pizza is not bread.

Offline Aimless Ryan

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Re: Dough Recipe for MPO
« Reply #69 on: August 29, 2012, 11:09:37 AM »
Buy higher quality equipment.

"Higher quality equipment" = a scale. (And I have one.)

OK, so since buying a scale is such a difficult and unreasonable instruction for people who want to take the next step in pizzamaking, here's the EASY instructions:

1) You absolutely must buy high quality measuring cups (whatever that is, and which probably don't exist), but don't bother buying a scale, which really didn't need to be mentioned here anyway.

2) Measure flour volumetrically by using 'this method' instead of every other method, which you will have to do perfectly every time but still won't end up with the same amount of flour from one measurement to the next.

3) Use only 'this brand' of flour every time you make pizza because that's what I used when I made this recipe, and because every brand of flour will end up with different results than every other brand.

4) If you'd like to resize the dough recipe to make the right amount of dough for slightly different sized pizzas than what we've advised, screw you. You're gonna have to figure that out on your own because I can't tell you how to measure 3-11/16 cups of flour.

5) If these instructions don't work for you, good luck trying to figure out the other way to do it, which is more accurate, easier, and yields better results.

6) Understand that when you start posting on the most useful pizzamaking message boards that ever existed, almost everyone will ignore you; not because they want to be mean but because you don't speak their language, and because your language is inferior to theirs, and because you haven't made an attempt to learn the easy-to-learn language they speak.

There you have it: the easy instructions.

[End of instructions]


You're telling me you have a good reason why I should pay $300 for some fancy pizza house when I already have a perfectly good oven and a perfectly good grill that cook my pizzas just fine, along with a stone for each... but it's OK to measure my ingredients by volume even though almost everyone who knows anything about pizza measures with a scale and expresses their measurements in bakers' percents so other people can reproduce the results.

I'm sure I left out some good reasons why we should all feel OK about measuring by volume.

So you can either show me the light, or you can do what they did in The Truman Show and keep me in the dark, but for no good reason. (At least someone in Trumanland had a good reason: lotsa money.)

Your target market has been telling you what would be best for them, Bert. Right here in this thread, for free. That's a precious gift. Take it.
« Last Edit: August 29, 2012, 11:16:00 AM by AimlessRyan »


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Re: Dough Recipe for MPO
« Reply #70 on: August 29, 2012, 11:25:15 AM »
Just quick question, regardless of what the recipe calls for flour and water, the end user may still need to make minor adjustment depending on their humidity level, Is this a correct statement? and if they don't, is that going to have any impact?

Bert,

There are many factors that can affect how a dough ends up, and needing to make some adjustments is quite normal and to be expected. Also, different mixers (whether stand mixers, food processors, bread makers, and even hand kneading), along with different possible kneading speeds, can also affect the final dough. Usually, the way that I try to address this matter is to describe what the finished dough should look and feel like. For example, I might say that the dough should be kneaded to form a "smooth, cohesive dough ball without tears on the outer surface and a bit on the tacky side". If those conditions are not satisfied, then it may be necessary to make a tweak or two. Tom Lehmann is fond of saying that one should mix the dough until it "develops a smooth, satiny appearance." Evelyne Slomon sometimes describes the finished dough as appearing "to have a dimpled cottage cheese texture." The key point is to try to describe as best you can what the finished dough should look and feel like.

Peter

Offline TXCraig1

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Re: Dough Recipe for MPO
« Reply #71 on: August 29, 2012, 11:26:55 AM »
Ryan, I can't speak for Bert, but I don't think you are seeing the target market. You and I are not the target market. The people posting on this thread are not the target market. The vast majority of people at pizzamaking.com are not the target market. Likewise, the vast majority of his target market will never come here.

As I understand it, the target market is people who will spend a lot of money on a grill and like nice toys - the type of people who shop at places like frontgate.com. The target market by-and-large consider themselves good cooks (at least outdoors), but that does not mean they use a scale; they probably don't bake much if any. They probably have all sorts of nice cookbooks. If they like pizza, maybe they have the A16 cookbook which like just about all the others gives volumetric measurements only. The vast majority of people simply don't scale ingredients. Look how many people come here having never used a scale for making pizza - sure many learn better once they get here, but they have to get here first.

I think it is a good idea to include weight measurements, but I believe the key to success is going to be giving volumetric measurements combined with instructions that make them work. Maybe I'm wrong. Bert will have to decide.
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Offline Jet_deck

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Re: Dough Recipe for MPO
« Reply #72 on: August 29, 2012, 11:30:23 AM »
... I should invest into a scale ...

Bert, any restraunt supply place in Houston will have digital scales in the $15 - $35 range.
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Offline pizzaneer

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Re: Dough Recipe for MPO
« Reply #73 on: August 29, 2012, 11:33:12 AM »
Provide a link to your website where you have the explanation of baker's percents and some example recipes that can be easily updated.    

Of course, a nice add-on to your accessories could be a decent digital scale, reading from .01 to 1000g.
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Offline Chicago Bob

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Re: Dough Recipe for MPO
« Reply #74 on: August 29, 2012, 11:34:24 AM »
Pretty good points Craig. I think many people here would try their hand at a LBE before buying a MPO.
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Offline MightyPizzaOven

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Re: Dough Recipe for MPO
« Reply #75 on: August 29, 2012, 11:52:03 AM »
Oh man ... I can't keep up with you guys...

I was thinking more like a simple instruction:

Use measuring spoons or scale... If the dough too sticky add more flour if it is too dry add more water.

Ok... I may expand on that and include Peter description.

I hope you guys don't mind...I will use some of the detail used in these posts in my FAQ... I will reference pizzamaking.com ... Is this ok???

Regarding MPO price... I modified few things I am looking at an introductory price of $220 to $240 not including shipping. I will post it on the chitchat area once confirmed.

I was able to achieve better baking time and results with MPO than just a stone in my home oven or on the grill.  For me, with MPO... baking pizza became as easy as grilling  ... Hmm ...that makes a good tag line..
Bert,

Offline Chicago Bob

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Re: Dough Recipe for MPO
« Reply #76 on: August 29, 2012, 11:58:02 AM »


I hope you guys don't mind...I will use some of the detail used in these posts in my FAQ... I will reference pizzamaking.com ... Is this ok???

Regarding MPO price... I modified few things I am looking at an introductory price of $220 to $240 not including shipping. I will post it on the chitchat area once confirmed.


Don't you go sending those crazy people to our house Bert!!   :-D   J/K....might need an OK from Steve though.

Wow...sounds like you got the nice price now. That is really sounding good man.  ;)
« Last Edit: August 29, 2012, 12:01:08 PM by Chicago Bob »
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Offline MightyPizzaOven

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Re: Dough Recipe for MPO
« Reply #77 on: August 29, 2012, 12:07:29 PM »
Don't you go sending those crazy people to our house Bert!!   :-D   J/K....might need an OK from Steve though.


What's few more ;D ;D just kidding... I will check with steve.

I am targeting to Launch MPO on sometime in October (pizza month) on kickstarter .. hopefully I can make it.
Bert,

Offline MightyPizzaOven

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Re: Dough Recipe for MPO
« Reply #78 on: August 29, 2012, 12:12:31 PM »
the baker scale looks it can measure down to 2 decimal points and it is not much more expensive.
Bert,

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Re: Dough Recipe for MPO
« Reply #79 on: August 29, 2012, 12:15:45 PM »
I hope you guys don't mind...I will use some of the detail used in these posts in my FAQ... I will reference pizzamaking.com ... Is this ok???

Bert,

That shouldn't be a problem.

Peter