Author Topic: Dough Recipe for MPO  (Read 10892 times)

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Offline Aimless Ryan

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Re: Dough Recipe for MPO
« Reply #25 on: August 28, 2012, 10:31:03 AM »
I like to stay with volume mesurment since it is easier for mojority of my potentila customers.

Really? You think so?

You're saying you think people who are willing to give up a few hundred dollars for something that only has one purpose and takes skill and knowledge to operate would not be willing to give up $30 for something that constitutes part of that skill and knowledge. I don't think so. If I put myself in the shoes of your target customer, I see myself as someone who wants to learn how to do it right. This isn't something I'm just going to have sitting around in the kitchen unused, looking pretty, like most people's KitchenAid.

To me this is something an aspiring pizzamaker purchases after they've already bought a scale but before they get serious enough to think about making their own MPO-like device. Especially if they're using pizzamaking.com as their primary guide to learning how to make pizza, which they probably are.

And what's the obligatory response on these boards every time some new kid shows up asking how to improve their [volumetric] recipe? We all say it: "You need to get a scale." And I think most of the new kids take us seriously when we say that.

So obviously I'm gonna have to disagree with you on the quoted text. Volumetric measurement is not easier; not for the majority of your potential customers and not for anyone. Volumetric measurement is only easier for people who are too lazy to try hard enough to do it right, and I really doubt that those people are your target market.
Ryan
http://www.ryanspizzablog.blogspot.com

Disclaimer: Don't necessarily believe anything I say here. My brain ain't quite right anymore (unless it is). If I come off as rude or argumentative, that's probably not my intention. Rather, that's just me being honest, to myself and everyone else; partly because I don't have enough time left to BS either you or myself. If you are offended by anything I say, it's probably because you think lying to people (to be "polite") is a good idea. I don't.


Offline Aimless Ryan

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Re: Dough Recipe for MPO
« Reply #26 on: August 28, 2012, 10:39:09 AM »
One more thing: I would be in your target market if I had any money. I'd love to have one of these things, but I don't even have the money to buy materials to make one for myself. That's a big reason why if you look at any of my recent pictures, you see me baking on a grill with no mods; just a grill and a stone (with foil underneath it).

And I think a lot of your target market consists of people like me, who are very experienced pizzamakers but who, for whatever reason, are unable to make something like this for themselves.
Ryan
http://www.ryanspizzablog.blogspot.com

Disclaimer: Don't necessarily believe anything I say here. My brain ain't quite right anymore (unless it is). If I come off as rude or argumentative, that's probably not my intention. Rather, that's just me being honest, to myself and everyone else; partly because I don't have enough time left to BS either you or myself. If you are offended by anything I say, it's probably because you think lying to people (to be "polite") is a good idea. I don't.

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Re: Dough Recipe for MPO
« Reply #27 on: August 28, 2012, 11:38:45 AM »

Offline MightyPizzaOven

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Re: Dough Recipe for MPO
« Reply #28 on: August 28, 2012, 12:09:36 PM »
100% people I know (except the one on this forum) know nothing about bakers percent... or even own a scale... using volume measurement is convenient I wouldn't say it is lazy...
Bert

Offline MightyPizzaOven

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Re: Dough Recipe for MPO
« Reply #29 on: August 28, 2012, 12:32:10 PM »
I don't own a scale, I am satisfied using my measuring spoons... my statement is based on my own observations of the people around me.. ...I do appreciate your input... we don't have to agree on everything.
Bert

Offline MightyPizzaOven

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Re: Dough Recipe for MPO
« Reply #30 on: August 28, 2012, 01:08:56 PM »
Not much more work on your part to call out both weight and volume.

Agree,
Bert

Offline Chicago Bob

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Re: Dough Recipe for MPO
« Reply #31 on: August 28, 2012, 01:15:37 PM »
Really? You think so?

You're saying you think people who are willing to give up a few hundred dollars for something that only has one purpose and takes skill and knowledge to operate would not be willing to give up $30 for something that constitutes part of that skill and knowledge. I don't think so. If I put myself in the shoes of your target customer, I see myself as someone who wants to learn how to do it right. This isn't something I'm just going to have sitting around in the kitchen unused, looking pretty, like most people's KitchenAid.

To me this is something an aspiring pizzamaker purchases after they've already bought a scale but before they get serious enough to think about making their own MPO-like device. Especially if they're using pizzamaking.com as their primary guide to learning how to make pizza, which they probably are.

And what's the obligatory response on these boards every time some new kid shows up asking how to improve their [volumetric] recipe? We all say it: "You need to get a scale." And I think most of the new kids take us seriously when we say that.

So obviously I'm gonna have to disagree with you on the quoted text. Volumetric measurement is not easier; not for the majority of your potential customers and not for anyone. Volumetric measurement is only easier for people who are too lazy to try hard enough to do it right, and I really doubt that those people are your target market.
I completely agree with Ryan on this one. I am now so used to bakers % recipes that I just move on when someone asks for help if they post in volume. I just can't equate it. And I'm sure I'm not the only one doing this.
Don't think I would want to limit myself, especially if I were in Bert's situation...
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Offline MightyPizzaOven

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Re: Dough Recipe for MPO
« Reply #32 on: August 28, 2012, 01:34:34 PM »
Bob, I am not disagreeing with posting the recipe in weight / bakers %... I think majority of my potential customers (probably never made pizza before) would prefer using volume measurement, and most likely they have measuring spoons rather than a scale.
Bert

Offline RobynB

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Re: Dough Recipe for MPO
« Reply #33 on: August 28, 2012, 01:46:13 PM »
Anymore, when I look at recipes for baking or dough, if the measurements are only volume with no weights given, I move on.  To me, it implies an inferior recipe because I know it's imprecise, so I won't waste my time trying it.  Plus weighing is so much easier and less messy than dealing with cups and spoons, so that's another reason not to bother with a volume-only recipe. 


Offline Chicago Bob

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Re: Dough Recipe for MPO
« Reply #34 on: August 28, 2012, 01:49:14 PM »
Bob, I am not disagreeing with posting the recipe in weight / bakers %... I think majority of my potential customers (probably never made pizza before) would prefer using volume measurement, and most likely they have measuring spoons rather than a scale.
I don't know Bert...Ryan seems to make a pretty good argument that you will be addressing a bit more of a sophisticated crowd.
This could actually possibly turn in your favor. By starting your instruction booklet(or whatever you intend to do)out right from the start with a little tutorial about weight measuring  this might help to catch the eye of people who are more serious about outdoor pizza making. If done correctly and you still give a choice then I don't see what it would hurt if you know what I mean.
« Last Edit: August 28, 2012, 08:08:06 PM by Chicago Bob »
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Offline Kostakis1985

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Re: Dough Recipe for MPO
« Reply #35 on: August 28, 2012, 01:57:47 PM »
I agree with Ryan and Bob, the people most likely to buy this product are serious pizzamakers. The results look great, could someone tell me where i could read about what it actually is? Is it an insert for an outdoor grill? Or a stand alone oven? Is this something i can make or buy ive tried searching but im still vague
Jamie

Offline deb415611

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Re: Dough Recipe for MPO
« Reply #36 on: August 28, 2012, 02:10:43 PM »
Anymore, when I look at recipes for baking or dough, if the measurements are only volume with no weights given, I move on.  To me, it implies an inferior recipe because I know it's imprecise, so I won't waste my time trying it.  Plus weighing is so much easier and less messy than dealing with cups and spoons, so that's another reason not to bother with a volume-only recipe. 

that's how I think also-- from the recipe to the ease

I am a real life potential customer and for me - if volume only I won't even look at the recipe and will find another or develop one,  if both volume and weights - I will look at the recipe and decide if I think it's worth making  (Bert - I have not looked at where you are in your recipe and not discounting it, I am talking generally and that last pizza looks great  :D).  While I want the weights - I do agree with Bert in that there is need for the volume measurements - there is a population that will buy his product that do not own or intend to own scale, Craig's suggestion of explaining how you measure will help you so that your customers have a better chance of replicating what you are doing.   Bert mentioned that he wasn't opposed to both - I think this is the best way to go to catch everyone. 
Deb

Offline Aimless Ryan

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Re: Dough Recipe for MPO
« Reply #37 on: August 28, 2012, 02:50:36 PM »
100% people I know (except the one on this forum) know nothing about bakers percent... or even own a scale... using volume measurement is convenient I wouldn't say it is lazy...

How much pizza do the people you know make?
Ryan
http://www.ryanspizzablog.blogspot.com

Disclaimer: Don't necessarily believe anything I say here. My brain ain't quite right anymore (unless it is). If I come off as rude or argumentative, that's probably not my intention. Rather, that's just me being honest, to myself and everyone else; partly because I don't have enough time left to BS either you or myself. If you are offended by anything I say, it's probably because you think lying to people (to be "polite") is a good idea. I don't.

Offline MightyPizzaOven

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Re: Dough Recipe for MPO
« Reply #38 on: August 28, 2012, 03:01:48 PM »
Deb, That's correct, I am not opposing to both...With little instruction the recipe can be consistent every time using volume measurment. The recipe is inteded for MPO (http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,19893.0.html) as a starting point... individuals can modify it to their own taste...
Bert

Offline MightyPizzaOven

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Re: Dough Recipe for MPO
« Reply #39 on: August 28, 2012, 03:11:08 PM »
How much pizza do the people you know make?

very few...
Bert

Offline MightyPizzaOven

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Re: Dough Recipe for MPO
« Reply #40 on: August 28, 2012, 03:21:34 PM »
The recipe need need to user friendly for no experience to minimum experience pizza makers. 
Bert

Offline Aimless Ryan

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Re: Dough Recipe for MPO
« Reply #41 on: August 28, 2012, 03:34:38 PM »
With little instruction the recipe can be consistent every time using volume measurment.

I'm not trying to be a jerk here. Like everyone else, I'm just trying to help you.

Here's one thing you need to know: Nothing is ever consistent using volumetric measurements. One level cup does not equal one level cup. Especially with flour, which I've heard is a pretty important pizza dough ingredient. Even if you use the same measuring cup every time you measure, with the same method of measuring, you're not going to end up with the same amount of flour every time.

Also, just about every measuring cup has at least a slightly different capacity than almost every other measuring cup that's labeled the same size. For example, I have four "one cup" measuring cups. I recently weighed a level cup of flour in each of them, using the same measuring technique for each cup. One of them gave me 5.55 oz of flour, while another one gave me 5.03 oz. That's a huge disparity.

So how much is a cup of flour? There is no answer.

Also, when I started making pizza, there's no way I would have had any interest in something like the MPO. Fifteen years later, I'm interested in something like this. I'm interested now because after 15 years of making pizza obsessively, I know what an MPO could do for me. This is not for beginners.

Like other people have suggested, use both weight and volumetric measurements in the owner's manual. But use the owner's manual to educate people that volumetric measurements are useless. Educating people could be an amazing marketing strategy, if you haven't thought about that. (I have a ton more I could say about that.)
Ryan
http://www.ryanspizzablog.blogspot.com

Disclaimer: Don't necessarily believe anything I say here. My brain ain't quite right anymore (unless it is). If I come off as rude or argumentative, that's probably not my intention. Rather, that's just me being honest, to myself and everyone else; partly because I don't have enough time left to BS either you or myself. If you are offended by anything I say, it's probably because you think lying to people (to be "polite") is a good idea. I don't.


Offline MightyPizzaOven

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Re: Dough Recipe for MPO
« Reply #42 on: August 28, 2012, 04:06:37 PM »
Ryan, I do appreciate your input and everyone else. Even though I have been making pizza for a while, once I joined this forum, I realized how little I know about pizza... I may sound disagreeing, it is more like I don't see the criticality of it, it is due to my experience level in baking. I agree volumetric is not as accurate as weight. But for someone just starting, is it going to make that much Difference? You indicated.. it does...

I think as long as you are using the same set of measuring cups, ingredient should be proportional.

I intend to provide simple instructions with the MPO to get inexperience users to a good start. I will point experience users to different resources online to pursue higher knowledge.
Bert

Offline TXCraig1

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Re: Dough Recipe for MPO
« Reply #43 on: August 28, 2012, 04:15:13 PM »
If it was me, I would include only weight and volume measurements. I would not include bakers % as that would only serve to confuse 99.999% of his customers and for no good reason. This is a recipe not an advanced pizza making lesson. Anyone who knows what it is will do the math themselves and the data to do it will be right there.

I would list the volumetric measurement first as the vast majority of the customers won't have a scale or use it even if they do. I would be precise with the weight measurement, and I would detail the method used to weigh the flour so that they have the best chance of duplicating the recipe.

CL
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Offline Aimless Ryan

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Re: Dough Recipe for MPO
« Reply #44 on: August 28, 2012, 04:25:50 PM »
I think as long as you are using the same set of measuring cups, ingredient should be proportional.

OK, so what if you have a "one cup" measuring cup that holds 5.03 oz of flour, while I have a "one cup" measuring cup that holds 5.55 oz of flour? (Remember, I'm a beginner, and I assume the "one cup" in your instruction manual is the same thing I use when I measure "one cup.")

In this case, every time I make dough, it's gonna end up nothing like your dough. Your dough will be usable, but mine will be a brick. Every time. I'm gonna try doing this about three times before I get frustrated enough to quit trying to make pizza. Then I might spread the word (on the internet, for everyone to see) that the Mighty Pizza Oven is crap and the instructions are crap. I'm gonna tell everyone not to waste a few hundred dollars on it, and people are gonna listen.

Instead, what if your instructions told me what I needed to know, and I ended up making a pizza I didn't think I could make? What if you told me what we tell every new user here at pizzamaking.com?
Ryan
http://www.ryanspizzablog.blogspot.com

Disclaimer: Don't necessarily believe anything I say here. My brain ain't quite right anymore (unless it is). If I come off as rude or argumentative, that's probably not my intention. Rather, that's just me being honest, to myself and everyone else; partly because I don't have enough time left to BS either you or myself. If you are offended by anything I say, it's probably because you think lying to people (to be "polite") is a good idea. I don't.

Offline MightyPizzaOven

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Re: Dough Recipe for MPO
« Reply #45 on: August 28, 2012, 04:47:14 PM »
Ryan, If the recipe is not working for them using volume measurment, I would recommend for them to invest into a scale... ;D  I am having issue indicating that you can't make good consistent pizza unless you have a scale.

Craig, what you recommneded is simple to include.

Bert

Offline Aimless Ryan

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Re: Dough Recipe for MPO
« Reply #46 on: August 28, 2012, 05:33:46 PM »
I am having issue indicating that you can't make good consistent pizza unless you have a scale.

I don't know because I don't waste my time making pizza without a scale. And if I did, I most certainly would not have been able to learn how to make the often-amazing pizzas of various styles that I crank out every day. You simply cannot learn from one pizza to the next if you don't use a scale to measure the ingredients because you don't know what you might have done differently from one batch of dough to the next.

You're probably right, though, because no one can make consistent pizza using inherently (and hopelessly) inconsistent measurements. It may be possible to make consistently good pizza by using inconsistent measurements, but none of the pizzas will be good for the same reasons as the other pizzas. And there's no way to learn from that.
Ryan
http://www.ryanspizzablog.blogspot.com

Disclaimer: Don't necessarily believe anything I say here. My brain ain't quite right anymore (unless it is). If I come off as rude or argumentative, that's probably not my intention. Rather, that's just me being honest, to myself and everyone else; partly because I don't have enough time left to BS either you or myself. If you are offended by anything I say, it's probably because you think lying to people (to be "polite") is a good idea. I don't.

Offline TXCraig1

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Re: Dough Recipe for MPO
« Reply #47 on: August 28, 2012, 05:40:06 PM »
OK, so what if you have a "one cup" measuring cup that holds 5.03 oz of flour, while I have a "one cup" measuring cup that holds 5.55 oz of flour? (Remember, I'm a beginner, and I assume the "one cup" in your instruction manual is the same thing I use when I measure "one cup.")

A cup is a cup. Your cup and my cup are exactly the same volumetrically. The difference in weight comes from how you scoop and measure, do you sift, do you just scoop and  level, do tap it on the counter, do you slice into it with a knife, etc. If you tell them how to measure, they will get pretty close. I really don't see what the big deal is if you give them weights in addition to volume and also tell them how to measure flour with a measuring cup.
Pizza is not bread. Craig's Neapolitan Garage

Offline Chicago Bob

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Re: Dough Recipe for MPO
« Reply #48 on: August 28, 2012, 05:40:58 PM »
I am having issue indicating that you can't make good consistent pizza unless you have a scale.




I'm not sure if I understand exactly what you are trying to say here Bert.  Maybe a translation problem. Would you mind expounding please?
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Offline MightyPizzaOven

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Re: Dough Recipe for MPO
« Reply #49 on: August 28, 2012, 06:19:06 PM »
I'm not sure if I understand exactly what you are trying to say here Bert.  Maybe a translation problem. Would you mind expounding please?

I am having issue agreeing with that you can't make a good consistent pizza unless you have a scale.

I make pizza on weekend only. I have been improving week by week. I guess, once I stop improving or get consistent results I would look into scaling. Both measurment will be available. It will be up to each individual to decide which way to go based on their own preference and experience level.
Bert