San Marzano Tomatoes Pizza Sauce Recipe

[AimlessRyan]

OK, you can go on believing whatever you want to believe. I'm not gonna argue about it.

[Pete-zza]

FTR...Pappa John told the public that he had tomatoes grown for his particular pies and was sued.  He lost that suit.   No comparison.  None whatsoever!

Mike,

In the course of my research on the Papa John's pizzas, I did not come across what you reported above. Can you tell me where you found that?

Peter

[Chicago Bob]

San Marzano DOP tomato's are known to be of superior quality.Anyone can see that those Cali one's in the white can with the bright colored lettering is a misleading "rip off" on the San Marzano name......Sheeesh! 

[Pete-zza]

San Marzano DOP tomato's are known to be of superior quality.Anyone can see that those Cali one's in the white can with the bright colored lettering is a misleading "rip off" on the San Marzano name......Sheeesh!  

Bob,

To my way of thinking, it is a matter of buyer beware. As I understand it, San Marzano seeds are a varietal and, as such, can be grown anywhere. In the case of the California canned San Marzano tomatoes, from SiLtd (Simpson Imports), the label on the can clearly states that the tomatoes are grown in the U.S. Where I do see the potential for misleading customers is that the label has the Italian words Pomidori Pelati running around the label top and bottom. If a consumer sees the words San Marzano and Pomidori Pelati and assumes that the tomatoes were grown in Italy, then the consumer will not be getting the real deal. In my view, the greater issue is that the California San Marzanos strike me as quite costly, at least the ones I saw at http://www.cybercucina.com/ccdocs/products/SM5012.html and at http://www.farawayfoods.com/sanmarzano.html, just to cite two examples. I have seen the San Marzano DOPs from Italy grown in vesuvial soil that sell for less than that.

My view is if Mike is fully aware of what tomatoes he has, and he likes them, who am I to tell him otherwise? Who knows, maybe he got a good price on them and represent value for his purposes.

I usually steer clear of debates about tomatoes on the forum because I have seen that members' preferences vary all over the place, with each tomato product having its vocal opponents and its vocal advocates. I say leave people in peace. If they like the tomatoes they have, so be it.

Peter

[Chicago Bob]

Peter,
I don't even know that Mike said he likes them.    I know I said that I do.
I'm just talking about those Cali ones being misleading...Yes, they are expensive. Couple that with your 2 observations about their labeling and somebody needs to go to jail damnit!! 
It's funny how powerful a "price" can be. When I was new to buying canned tomato's I thought WOW I finally found a store that has the "good" one's everyone on pizzamaking,com is using. Hated that price but it is also the "price" that helped convince me I had "the good stuff".
I have learned better here at pizzamaking.com....thank you for having helped to save me money Peter, you're swell! 

[AimlessRyan]

In the case of the California canned San Marzano tomatoes, from SiLtd (Simpson Imports), the label on the can clearly states that the tomatoes are grown in the U.S.

But it says "San Marzano" all over the can. And most people probably don't know "Grown domestically in the U.S.A." also means "not San Marzano."

I remember the first time I saw those cans. I didn't know if they were San Marzanos or not. In fact, I wasn't sure for a long time, even though I had already done a good bit of research on the subject.

If I wasn't a pizza nut, I would never notice the part of the label that says "Grown domestically in the U.S.A." All I would see is the four large tomatoes that say "San Marzano" in large print. And I think most of the people who buy those cans buy them because they think the can has San Marzano tomatoes in it.

[TXCraig1]

But it says "San Marzano" all over the can. And most people probably don't know "Grown domestically in the U.S.A." also means "not San Marzano."

Most people don't have the slightest idea what San Marzano means period.

[AimlessRyan]

Most people don't have the slightest idea what San Marzano means period.

I think enough people do have the slightest idea what "San Marzano" is supposed to mean, which is why these cans bother me. And even if people don't know what "San Marzano" means (or what it's supposed to mean), when people notice a can of "San Marzano" tomatoes sitting beside a can of "tomatoes," they start wondering what it may mean. Especially because the "San Marzanos" almost always cost more. People add it up.

I don't know if Cento DOP San Marzanos are really San Marzanos, even though they have all the proper labeling. But what I do know is that they always taste amazing. I've gone through two cans of Stanislaus Saporito Filetto di Pomodoro in the last month, and they're not as good as Cento DOPs. But I didn't expect them to be as good, and they're not labeled in a way that would make me expect them to be as good as San Marzanos. They're still very good, though, and they cost about a third of the price of San Marzanos.

Do California "San Marzanos" taste good? I don't know. But I know there is a can of them in this house, probably because my mom thought they were San Marzanos when she saw them at the grocery store. So if people on these boards are gonna continue to perpetuate the idea that they are San Marzanos, I'm gonna speak up and say they're not, because misinformation is the kind of thing that can keep people in a stalemate for years, and I just don't think that's cool.

You're not telling people that 40% hydration is OK for Neapolitan pizza dough, are you? Why not? My guess is because 40% is not OK for Neapolitan. I'm guessing you don't tell them that because if you tell them 40% is OK, you know you won't be helping them in any way.

I'm sure you're gonna tell me my analogy is apples and oranges, so go ahead. But explain why this time.

[Pete-zza]

But it says "San Marzano" all over the can. And most people probably don't know "Grown domestically in the U.S.A." also means "not San Marzano."

I remember the first time I saw those cans. I didn't know if they were San Marzanos or not. In fact, I wasn't sure for a long time, even though I had already done a good bit of research on the subject.

If I wasn't a pizza nut, I would never notice the part of the label that says "Grown domestically in the U.S.A." All I would see is the four large tomatoes that say "San Marzano" in large print. And I think most of the people who buy those cans buy them because they think the can has San Marzano tomatoes in it.

Ryan,

I think you are attaching too narrow a definition to the words San Marzano. As wikipedia points out at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/San_Marzano_tomato, San Marzano tomatoes are a varietal, which simply means that it is a named variety of a particular tomato, and, as such, can be grown anywhere around the world (and actually are, as the wikipedia article notes).

In the case of Simpson Limited, I have been aware of them for over eight years. In fact, I wrote about the subject of the "authentic" and "genuine" San Marzanos (meaning those grown in the small region around Naples called Agro Sarnese-Nocerino), and the knock offs of those tomatoes, at Reply 1 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,698.msg6315/topicseen.html#msg6315. In re-reading that post, I believe what I said in December of 2004 still applies for all intents and purposes. Also, if Simpson Import's use of the words San Marzano is deceptive and misleading and consumers relied on those words to their detriment, then I would have imagined that someone, either consumers or representatives of the entities that represent the Italian San Marzano industry, would have brought suit against Simpson Imports for false advertising, just as Pizza Hut did around 1999 when Papa John's, in reaction to a program that PH initiated, started the "Better Ingredients, Better Pizza" campaign. I believe the reason why no such suit has been initiated (as far as I know) after all these years is because San Marzano is a varietal. In addition, Simpson Limited has clearly stated that their tomatoes are grown in the U.S. That takes us back to buyer beware.

Peter

[TXCraig1]

I think enough people do have the slightest idea what "San Marzano" is supposed to mean, which is why these cans bother me.

Why would you let something like this bother you? Who cares? Life is way too short to be bothered by something that has zero impact on your life. Is it not?

I don't know if Cento DOP San Marzanos are really San Marzanos, even though they have all the proper labeling. But what I do know is that they always taste amazing. I've gone through two cans of Stanislaus Saporito Filetto di Pomodoro in the last month, and they're not as good as Cento DOPs. But I didn't expect them to be as good, and they're not labeled in a way that would make me expect them to be as good as San Marzanos. 

Cento doesn’t sell DOP San Marzanos anymore (and have not for some time). The requirements were too burdensome. They still make the exact same product, but now they call it “Certified.” Does this change the way you feel about them?

You're not telling people that 40% hydration is OK for Neapolitan pizza dough, are you? Why not? My guess is because 40% is not OK for Neapolitan. I'm guessing you don't tell them that because if you tell them 40% is OK, you know you won't be helping them in any way.

I'm sure you're gonna tell me my analogy is apples and oranges, so go ahead. But explain why this time.

No, I’m not going to tell you it’s not apples and oranges, it’s not – it’s apples and durian. You’re right; I don’t tell people to use 40%HR for NP because it’s not right, and I wouldn’t be helping them. Full stop. There is no additional commentary required. I wouldn’t tell someone to buy DOP SM tomatoes and simply leave it at that because it is not that simple, and it’s not right. I wouldn’t be helping them. I’ve had more than one brand of DOP SM tomato that was significantly inferior to Cento Italian. Just telling someone to buy DOP SM tomatoes does not help them and may do them a disservice.

IMHO, you’re making a mountain out of a molehill.

[mykall]

I believe the reason why no such suit has been initiated (as far as I know) after all these years is because San Marzano is a varietal. In addition, Simpson Limited has clearly stated that their tomatoes are grown in the U.S. That takes us back to buyer beware.

Peter

Thanks Pete.  I thought I made this point earlier, just not as well.  I don't like fights I just am not a big fan of these "nose in the air" definitions of "what can be considered" based on some ridiculous definitions and restraints.  It gets back to if the same seed can be grown better in the volcanic soil of Italy and delivered by can to your table, buy it.  If someone else grows the same seed in a different venue and delivers a better product, don't POO POO it,  USE IT if it works!  If it doesn't, ...don't use it.  But leave the poo-poo out.   Capiche ??

[Chicago Bob]

Oh boy....should I , or shouldn't I.....

[TXCraig1]

If you have to ask, you shouldn't. 

[rcbaughn]

Georgia Vidalia onions couldn't be grown in other areas due to the composition of the Georgia soil. No where else could produce an onion as sweet. I forget what it was in the soil, but whenever people tried to transplant them out of state, they didn't get the same onion. I don't know whether that might hold true with tomatoes, but I do believe in terroir making a difference in flavors personally. Well, certain things, with cheese and sourdough starters for example.

[TXCraig1]

Georgia Vidalia onions couldn't be grown in other areas due to the composition of the Georgia soil. No where else could produce an onion as sweet. I forget what it was in the soil, but whenever people tried to transplant them out of state, they didn't get the same onion. I don't know whether that might hold true with tomatoes, but I do believe in terroir making a difference in flavors personally. Well, certain things, with cheese and sourdough starters for example.

This is a great comment. A Vidalia onion is defined almost exactly how Ryan would like to define a San Marzano (“SM”) Tomato. Vidalia is not a variety of onion. It’s a name that, by law, is only allowed to be used on certain varieties of onions grown in a certain part of Georgia.  You are correct that with Vidalia onions, terroir is a key variable. In this case, I believe it is low-sulfur soil that makes a difference as the volcanic soil does for the DOP SM’s.  San Marzano is a variety of tomato, so unlike Vidalia onions, you can grow SM tomatoes outside of the San Marzano region, they just are not DOP.

It’s not exactly correct to say that they tried to transplant the onions out of Georgia and didn’t get the same onion.  The most common Vidalia onion today didn’t originate in Georgia. A more accurate observation would be to say that the same onion grown outside of Georgia tastes different.  Most Vidalia onions today are the Texas-bred Granex hybrid. If you grow it someplace else it’s not a Vidalia.  For example, the same onion grown in parts of Hawaii is the Maui onion. Mostly however, it would just be a plain old sweet onion. The Texas 1015, on the other hand, is an entirely different onion – though both Granex/Vidalia and 1015 are descendants of the Grano 502 first imported into Texas from Spain.

[mykall]

Georgia Vidalia onions couldn't be grown in other areas due to the composition of the Georgia soil. No where else could produce an onion as sweet. I forget what it was in the soil, but whenever people tried to transplant them out of state, they didn't get the same onion. I don't know whether that might hold true with tomatoes, but I do believe in terroir making a difference in flavors personally. Well, certain things, with cheese and sourdough starters for example.

The same is supposed to be true of Virginia Peanuts.  They are a variety just as are "runners", "spanish" and "vanencia".  There will be those that will tell you that no one else can duplicate "Wakefield" grown Virginia peanuts.  Could be true, but the Virginia variety are grown in NC and other states.  Are they just as good?  I don't know but they're still called Virginia peanuts. 

There are those that will tell you that real NY style pizza only comes from NY city because of the water.  We have a NY transplant here in Va. who makes the pie the same way he did in Ny and it's called NY Pizza and everyone knows it wasn't made in  NY.  Does it taste any different because of Va. water?  I don't know but I'd love to see if anyone could tell the difference. 

As for the San Marzano tomatoes grown in the US.  No they are not "authentic" from Italy, but if they work and taste good and you like them..... use them!  And they certainly are not called "Roma" or "Burpee's" Big Boy because they're not.

[Chicago Bob]

Georgia Vidalia onions couldn't be grown in other areas due to the composition of the Georgia soil. No where else could produce an onion as sweet. I forget what it was in the soil, but whenever people tried to transplant them out of state, they didn't get the same onion. I don't know whether that might hold true with tomatoes, but I do believe in terroir making a difference in flavors personally. Well, certain things, with cheese and sourdough starters for example.

Cory,
Don't know if you knew this but there are other places that have sweet onions too that are indigenous to their area..Texas has their 1015 Super Sweet(planted on Oct.15) and Washington has what's called Walla Walla's. I think Hawaii has a particular sweet onion too.

[TXCraig1]

Cory,
Don't know if you knew this but there are other places that have sweet onions too that are indigenous to their area.Texas has their 1015 Super Sweet(planted on Oct.15) and Washington has what's called Walla Walla's. I think Hawaii has a particular sweet onion too.

That's not a post I’d expect from someone who likes to chide people for not reading posts before posting.  

Expanding on what I wrote two posts before yours (where I commented on both 1015’s and Maui onions), none of the sweet onions we have in the US today are indigenous. It all started in 1898 when Bermuda onions were first planted in Texas. Ironically, the seeds were from the Canary Islands not Bermuda.

By the 1920's they were growing so many onions in Texas, the demand for seed brought in new, inexperienced seed growers who drove the Canary Island seed quality down. Per-acre yields in Texas became so low that growers began looking at other varieties – the most important of which was the Grano from Spain. Because of low yields, there have been few, if any, Bermuda onions grown commercially in the US since the late 1940's despite what you might see advertised at your grocery store.

One of the most important super sweet onions is the Granex, an F1 hybrid that was developed in Texas from the Excel Yellow Bermuda and the Texas Early Grano 951. This onion has a host of names including Vidalia, Maui, Noonday, etc.  

The Grano 1015Y (a.k.a Texas 1015) is not a hybrid – rather an improved Grano 951 that was developed for resistance to pink root – not sweetness per se – while maintaining early maturity. Attempts to further improve the 1015Y have resulted in later maturity which is highly undesirable from a commercial growing perspective.

The Walla Walla onion, on the other hand was developed from seed brought from Corsica off the coast of Italy. Interestingly, Bermuda onions are also of Italian origin.

[Chicago Bob]

I'm sorry Craig.....we prolly posted at the same time, yeah riiiight! 

OK, now this has turned informative. Would you mind telling me the correct word to be used instead of indigenous.
"The Walla Walla sweet onion is named for Walla Walla county in Washington where it is grown.[1] Its development began around 1900 when Peter Pieri, a French soldier who settled in the area, brought a sweet onion seed from the island of Corsica with him to the Walla Walla Valley.[2] This sweet onion was developed by selecting and reseeding onions from each year's crop that possessed sweetness, jumbo size, and round shape."

So, this onion is indigenous to Corsica..correct?    Now, what is it's relationship(correct word) to Walla Walla county?  Thanks.

[TXCraig1]

I'm sorry Craig.....we prolly posted at the same time, yeah riiiight! 

OK, now this has turned informative. Would you mind telling me the correct word to be used instead of indigenous.
"The Walla Walla sweet onion is named for Walla Walla county in Washington where it is grown.[1] Its development began around 1900 when Peter Pieri, a French soldier who settled in the area, brought a sweet onion seed from the island of Corsica with him to the Walla Walla Valley.[2] This sweet onion was developed by selecting and reseeding onions from each year's crop that possessed sweetness, jumbo size, and round shape."

So, this onion is indigenous to Corsica..correct?    Now, what is it's relationship(correct word) to Walla Walla county?  Thanks.

Yes, the original onion seed was from onions indigenous to Corsica. Walla Walla onions would be what is known as a cultivar – repeatedly selected for desirable properties – as opposed to a hybrid which a genetic cross between varieties. I’m not sure if there is a name for the relationship of the Walla Walla sweet onion to the Walla Walla valley (the growing region includes parts of Southeast Washington and Northeast Oregon). The name does have a protected status granted by the USDA. It is also a recognized variety. This makes it different than both the San Marzano and the Vidalia. The San Marzano is a variety but there is no law in the US against calling it such if not grown in the certain DOP area. The Vidalia is not a variety, but there is a law against calling onions Vidalia unless grown in certain regions of Georgia. The Walla Walla is both a variety and has legally protected origin.

The sweet onion is the state vegetable of Texas, Georgia, and Washington, and while the Vidalia and Walla Walla are specifically recognized in Georgia and Washington, it’s the sweet onion in general in Texas.