### Author Topic: Help please,,I am having dough issues!!  (Read 4691 times)

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#### jsid13

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##### Help please,,I am having dough issues!!
« on: August 11, 2012, 08:33:57 PM »
I bought the rights and recipes to a local pizza shop that used to be a city favorite until of course they closed.  I am not new to the pizza business but I am having trouble with the dough being  too bready and soft, where I remember the dough being very flavorful with a slight crunch to it.  The recipe is as follows:  14 lbs. flour
4 quarts water
1/3 cup salt
1/3 cup sugar
1/3 cup oil (I have used both olive oil and vegetable oil)
2 oz. fresh yeast.
I have cooked this recipe in both a deck oven and a conveyor oven. Any suggestions will be greatly appreciated. Also I used this dough after being refrigerated overnight, and after letting it proof for 4 hours.

#### scott123

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##### Re: Help please,,I am having dough issues!!
« Reply #1 on: August 12, 2012, 07:58:31 AM »
Jeff, we converse in the universal language of bakers- percentages. We are more than happy to help you figure out your problem, but, before we can do that, the numbers have to be converted from volume to weight (everything can be googled, ie "how much does a cup of sugar weigh") and then to percentages. If I had time, I would do it. Perhaps another member can do the math.  If you could find the time, it would go a long way in helping us help you.

#### Pete-zza

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##### Re: Help please,,I am having dough issues!!
« Reply #2 on: August 12, 2012, 09:00:24 AM »
Jeff,

Is the fresh yeast 2 ounces by weight or by volume?

Peter

#### jsid13

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##### Re: Help please,,I am having dough issues!!
« Reply #3 on: August 12, 2012, 10:22:44 AM »
Pete-zaa,,the yeast is measured by weight.

#### parallei

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##### Re: Help please,,I am having dough issues!!
« Reply #4 on: August 12, 2012, 10:36:28 AM »

A good tool for converting volumes to mass (cup flour to oz flour) is here:

http://foodsim.toastguard.com/

An explanation go Baker's Percentages can be found here:

http://www.kingarthurflour.com/professional/bakers-percentage.html
« Last Edit: August 12, 2012, 11:07:48 AM by parallei »

#### jsid13

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##### Re: Help please,,I am having dough issues!!
« Reply #5 on: August 12, 2012, 10:41:54 AM »
Parallei,  Thank you for the info. I will check it out.

Thank you again

Jeff

#### scott123

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##### Re: Help please,,I am having dough issues!!
« Reply #6 on: August 12, 2012, 10:44:16 AM »
Paul, thanks for plugging in the numbers.

Jeff, what brand of flour are you using?

#### jsid13

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##### Re: Help please,,I am having dough issues!!
« Reply #7 on: August 12, 2012, 10:47:02 AM »
Scott, I am using Sysco brand Hi gluten flour.

Jeff

#### Pete-zza

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##### Re: Help please,,I am having dough issues!!
« Reply #8 on: August 12, 2012, 10:55:41 AM »
Jeff,

Since I was doing the calculations and conversions as the others were posting, I am posting my version of your recipe in baker's percent format. I used the conversions built into the expanded dough calculating tool at http://www.pizzamaking.com/expanded_calculator.html. Technically, a cup of water weighs 8.345 ounces but most people who measure out water volumetrically rarely get that value. So, I used 8.15 ounces per cup of water. This is what I get:

 Sysco High-Gluten Flour (100%):Water (58.2143%):CY (0.89286%):Salt (1.40625%):Vegetable (Soybean) Oil (1.14428%):Sugar (1.00446%):Total (162.66215%): 6350.23 g  |  223.99 oz | 14 lbs3696.74 g  |  130.4 oz | 8.15 lbs56.7 g | 2 oz | 0.12 lbs | 89.3 g | 3.15 oz | 0.2 lbs | 5.33 tbsp | 0.33 cups72.66 g | 2.56 oz | 0.16 lbs | 5.33 tbsp | 0.33 cups63.79 g | 2.25 oz | 0.14 lbs | 5.33 tbsp | 0.33 cups10329.41 g | 364.35 oz | 22.77 lbs | TF = N/A
Note: No bowl residue compensation

It might also help to know what type of pizza you are trying to make with the dough and also the amount of dough, by weight, your are using to make a particular size pizza.

Peter

#### jsid13

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##### Re: Help please,,I am having dough issues!!
« Reply #9 on: August 12, 2012, 11:38:45 AM »
Pete-zza,,Thank you, I am making a thin crust, not cracker,  with 12 ounces of dough making a 14" pizza.

#### scott123

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##### Re: Help please,,I am having dough issues!!
« Reply #10 on: August 12, 2012, 11:42:08 AM »
Chicago thin crust or NY thin crust?

#### jsid13

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##### Re: Help please,,I am having dough issues!!
« Reply #11 on: August 12, 2012, 03:38:56 PM »
I would say a NY style without the big crust.  Here is a pic.

Jeff

#### Pete-zza

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##### Re: Help please,,I am having dough issues!!
« Reply #12 on: August 12, 2012, 03:51:51 PM »
Jeff,

I calculate a thickness factor of 12/(3.14159 x 7x 7) = 0.07785. In my opinion, that fits a NY style.

Can you tell us how you are baking the pizzas in your deck oven, including temperature and bake time? And, when you are using your conveyor oven, are you using screens or disks, and also what type of conveyor oven are you using and the related bake temperature and time? By any chance, are you using screens or disks with your deck oven?

Your formulation looks quite typical to me for a commercial NY style pizza. I think that you might use a bit more salt, but I don't think that is contributing to the softness and breadiness you mentioned. Has this been a consistent problem and are you also seeing that with your deck oven?

Peter

#### jsid13

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##### Re: Help please,,I am having dough issues!!
« Reply #13 on: August 12, 2012, 05:08:29 PM »
Deck oven temp is 450 degrees, and conveyor oven is 435 at 6 minutes. Is it possible I am not mixing it right?  First I put in the water, then add the sugar and salt until they dissolve, then I add the yeast until it dissolves, then I put the oil in then the flour.

Thank you

Jeff

#### jsid13

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##### Re: Help please,,I am having dough issues!!
« Reply #14 on: August 12, 2012, 05:12:01 PM »
Also I have used deck oven pans and screens in the deck oven with the same result.  I just used screens in the conveyor.

#### Pete-zza

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##### Re: Help please,,I am having dough issues!!
« Reply #15 on: August 12, 2012, 05:23:15 PM »
Jeff, you can see the dough preparation and management methods that Tom Lehmann recommends, at Reply 18 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,7499.msg64554/topicseen.html#msg64554. As you can see there, Tom advocates that the oil be added later rather than sooner.

Peter

#### TomN

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##### Re: Help please,,I am having dough issues!!
« Reply #16 on: August 12, 2012, 08:11:38 PM »
I bought the rights and recipes to a local pizza shop that used to be a city favorite until of course they closed.  I am not new to the pizza business but I am having trouble with the dough being  too bready and soft, where I remember the dough being very flavorful with a slight crunch to it.

Just a thought, have you considered contacting the former owners or anyone who used to make the dough for the restaurant? Perhaps you can find some former employees that remember people that worked there. Employees would remember,  who made the dough, sauce, etc... on a regular basis.

I have found it is best to talk directly and in person to those who know a certain recipe first hand and have experience making it. I am sure there is someone still around that knows. Even if it costs you some money to have them make the dough in front of you for a few days, it would be worth it. IMO. Best to you and i hope things work out for you.
« Last Edit: August 12, 2012, 08:18:04 PM by TomN »

#### jsid13

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##### Re: Help please,,I am having dough issues!!
« Reply #17 on: August 12, 2012, 10:17:27 PM »
Tom, I have tried that but no one seems to remember, but I am still looking at this point.

Thanks

Jeff

#### TomN

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##### Re: Help please,,I am having dough issues!!
« Reply #18 on: August 13, 2012, 01:56:42 AM »
Jeff,

I wish you the best in your search. There has to be someone that worked there that knows how things were made. Sometimes businesses located near the place might know people that worked there too. Also, check with your local chamber of commerce for any membership records or with the state for any business tax or salary records.

I am curious, (if you do not mind sharing) How much did it cost you for rights to the recipe?

TomN

#### The Dough Doctor

• Tom Lehmann
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##### Re: Help please,,I am having dough issues!!
« Reply #19 on: August 13, 2012, 11:13:38 AM »
It would also help us if you could provide us with your dough management procedure. This is everything you do with/to the dough from the mixer to the time it is used. Be sure to include temperatures too as it can have an impact upon fermentation, which can impact crispiness. What we typically look for is something like this:Mix the dough just until it takes on a smooth, satiny appearance; finished dough temperature is usually in the 80 to 85F range; take the dough directly to the bench for scaling and balling; wipe dough balls with salad oil and place into dough boxes; take dough boxes directly to the cooler and cross stack; allow dough boxes to remain cross stacked for 2.5-hours, then down stack and nest or lid the boxes; on the following day, remove a 2 to 3-hour supply of dough from the cooler, leaving it in the closed boxes; allow the dough to temper AT room temperature for about 3-hours, or until the dough temperature reaches 50 to 55F; take the dough to the bench for shaping into pizza skins as needed (Note: use of a sheeter/roller is not conducive to making the crispiest crust unless you allow the dough to set for 20 to 30-minutes after forming). One trick that I have used is to use the sheeter to open the dough only to about 2/3 of the finished diameter, then finish opening it by hand to the finished diameter. This provides for a very crisp crust characteristic without the need to allow the dough to rise after forming. If you bake the pizza on a screen in a deck oven you can improve the crispiness if you "deck" the pizza for about 60-seconds before you remove it from the oven. This is where you remove the pizza from the screen and allow it to bake right on the hearth for the final 60-seconds. As for your conveyor oven, assuming it is an air impingement oven, do you know what the top and bottom finger profile is?
Tom Lehmann/The Dough Doctor

#### jsid13

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##### Re: Help please,,I am having dough issues!!
« Reply #20 on: August 13, 2012, 05:37:36 PM »
TomN,,I paid for the recipes, the rights to the name, the right to franchise if I wished and a few other things, and the location for 5 grand.

#### jsid13

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##### Re: Help please,,I am having dough issues!!
« Reply #21 on: August 14, 2012, 06:35:29 PM »
TomN,,A friend of mine talked to an old manager and he got his number for me,, this was the last and best manager they let go and after that they went out of business. So hope this is a good sign.

Jeff

#### Pete-zza

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##### Re: Help please,,I am having dough issues!!
« Reply #22 on: August 14, 2012, 06:38:53 PM »
Jeff,

While you are exploring the possibility of getting help from a former employee of the pizzeria, it might help to respond to Tom Lehmann's post at Reply 19.

Peter

#### jsid13

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##### Re: Help please,,I am having dough issues!!
« Reply #23 on: August 14, 2012, 09:34:05 PM »
Tom L.,,First I weigh the flour, then I get the water at 90 degrees,, I put the sugar, salt in the water until they dissolve, add the yeast until it dissolves, then the oil.  Then I add the flour and mix on 1 for 10 minutes, the dough is about 80 degrees. When done mixing I bench the dough for 10 minutes, then I weigh and ball the dough and put in dough boxes, I cross stack them for about 30 minutes in the fridge then nest them.  Sorry it took me so long but I have been in and out.

Thank you

Jeff

#### Pete-zza

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##### Re: Help please,,I am having dough issues!!
« Reply #24 on: August 14, 2012, 10:00:15 PM »
Jeff,

I will let Tom react to your dough preparation and management procedures since he requested the information. However, to complete the story for Tom's benefit you might want to discuss how you manage the dough balls once you remove them from the cooler.

Also, on the matter of the cross stacking, your 30-minute cross-stack time may be too short. As you will note from Tom's post at the PMQ Think Tank at http://thinktank.pmq.com/viewtopic.php?p=69350#p69350, he recommends a cross-stack time of 1 1/2 hours for a dough ball weighing 12 ounces (which is your dough ball weight) or less. In Reply 19 in this thread, Tom's mentions a 2 1/2-hour cross stack. However, with about 30 dough balls for your dough batch, maybe you don't have to go out to 1 1/2-2 1/2 hours but maybe 30 minutes is still too short. In fact, I am hard pressed to remember Tom suggesting a cross-stack time less than 1 1/2 hours. His standard advice seems to be 2 hours.

Peter
« Last Edit: August 14, 2012, 10:21:11 PM by Pete-zza »