Author Topic: Unleavened pizza experiment  (Read 4366 times)

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Offline Aimless Ryan

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Unleavened pizza experiment
« on: August 12, 2012, 01:40:20 PM »
Today I think I'm gonna try something very different from any pizza I've ever made. How about an unleavened, unfermented crust?

I don't want to try to copy any existing pizza; I just want to do something quick and unique. Right now I'm thinking 40-50% hydration of KAAP. I suppose the dough should be rolled out very thin with a rolling pin. (Maybe I should use yeast without giving the dough any time to rise.) No parbake. Since I'm gonna be away from home for a few days soon, I don't want to open my #10 can of Stanislaus tomato strips. I'd rather use tomato paste for this kind of thing, but I don't see any tomato paste in the pantry. So it looks like I'll use Cento crushed tomatoes for sauce.

Anyone have any thoughts or ideas? Think I should use oil in the dough?


buceriasdon

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Re: Unleavened pizza experiment
« Reply #1 on: August 12, 2012, 01:53:38 PM »
Ryan, I use salt and yeast both, I really think it does add to the flavor. Mix, knead, roll out, top, then bake. I'm lazy so I do use just a bit of oil to help the rolling but not sure it's a game changer. Is this going in a pan or not? If nothing else go with some salt.
Don

Offline norma427

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Re: Unleavened pizza experiment
« Reply #2 on: August 12, 2012, 02:01:10 PM »

Ryan,

I donít know if you want to try this, but I worked on a thread using no yeast at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,10703.0.html  Peter helped me on that thread.

Norma
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Offline Aimless Ryan

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Re: Unleavened pizza experiment
« Reply #3 on: August 12, 2012, 02:16:51 PM »
Ryan, I use salt and yeast both, I really think it does add to the flavor. Mix, knead, roll out, top, then bake. I'm lazy so I do use just a bit of oil to help the rolling but not sure it's a game changer. Is this going in a pan or not? If nothing else go with some salt.
Don

So apparently you do this kind of thing sometimes?

I was thinking I'd peel it onto a stone, probably in the grill (with aluminum foil lining the bottom of the stone). But I also have plenty of pans and screens to choose from, including a cutter pan, several perforated aluminum pans of various sizes, and cake/deep dish pans.

I didn't mention salt, but I was thinking about going normal to slightly heavy on salt (1% to 2%), and/or maybe rolling a little kosher salt into the bottom of the skin. Even though I'm not trying to copy any existing pizzas, I do find myself thinking about Dayton, Ohio-style pizzas (like Cassano's), as well as Shakey's and Imo's. (I've never had Imo's, but it seems like I've read that Imo's is unleavened.)

Thanks for responding.

Offline Aimless Ryan

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Re: Unleavened pizza experiment
« Reply #4 on: August 12, 2012, 02:18:33 PM »
Thanks, Norma. I'm gonna check out that thread.

Online TXCraig1

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Re: Unleavened pizza experiment
« Reply #5 on: August 12, 2012, 02:21:09 PM »
Today I think I'm gonna try something very different from any pizza I've ever made. How about an unleavened, unfermented crust?

I don't want to try to copy any existing pizza; I just want to do something quick and unique. Right now I'm thinking 40-50% hydration of KAAP. I suppose the dough should be rolled out very thin with a rolling pin. (Maybe I should use yeast without giving the dough any time to rise.) No parbake. Since I'm gonna be away from home for a few days soon, I don't want to open my #10 can of Stanislaus tomato strips. I'd rather use tomato paste for this kind of thing, but I don't see any tomato paste in the pantry. So it looks like I'll use Cento crushed tomatoes for sauce.

Anyone have any thoughts or ideas? Think I should use oil in the dough?

I would not use yeast if you are not going to give it time to work. I'd use lard (or shortening) and a pretty good bit of it. I'd cut in into the dough cold like a pastry.

CL
Pizza is not bread.

buceriasdon

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Re: Unleavened pizza experiment
« Reply #6 on: August 12, 2012, 02:23:02 PM »

buceriasdon

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Re: Unleavened pizza experiment
« Reply #7 on: August 12, 2012, 02:24:54 PM »
Craig, I have found the addition of yeast to "jazz up" the flavor of the otherwise rather bland crust.
Don

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Re: Unleavened pizza experiment
« Reply #8 on: August 12, 2012, 02:26:38 PM »
Ryan, Imo's :   http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=10191.0


But that crust is leavened. It sounded like he wanted to go completely unleavened which is why I was suggesting a more pastry style of dough.

CL
Pizza is not bread.

buceriasdon

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Re: Unleavened pizza experiment
« Reply #9 on: August 12, 2012, 02:30:27 PM »
Craig, That's why I posted the link to BTB's Imo's dough, and everything I've read on the net would indicate Imo's is leavened. I also thought the recipe would be helpful as far as Ryan getting a head start on the formula.
Don
« Last Edit: August 12, 2012, 02:33:37 PM by buceriasdon »


Online TXCraig1

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Re: Unleavened pizza experiment
« Reply #10 on: August 12, 2012, 02:31:27 PM »
I think you are right.
Pizza is not bread.

Offline Aimless Ryan

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Re: Unleavened pizza experiment
« Reply #11 on: August 12, 2012, 02:33:04 PM »
I would not use yeast if you are not going to give it time to work. I'd use lard (or shortening) and a pretty good bit of it. I'd cut in into the dough cold like a pastry.

CL

I was thinking if I use yeast but don't give it time to rise, the heat of the oven would give the yeast kind of a quick jolt (or a micro-ferment). Plus, as Don mentioned, a little yeast flavor, too. But since I've never done anything like that, I have no idea if that would actually happen.

Online TXCraig1

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Re: Unleavened pizza experiment
« Reply #12 on: August 12, 2012, 02:33:53 PM »
Craig, I have found the addition of yeast to "jazz up" the flavor of the otherwise rather bland crust.
Don

I don't think I've ever tried yeast without any time to work. I assumed it would have a strange taste - like eating it out of the jar? It's good to know that it add a good flavor "raw."

CL
Pizza is not bread.

Offline Aimless Ryan

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Re: Unleavened pizza experiment
« Reply #13 on: August 12, 2012, 04:58:06 PM »
After a little time to think about it, I'm leaning toward trying this:

100% KAAP
45% Water
1.5% Salt
5% Oil

I sense that this is about to become my next big project because there are so many different things I can try. For example (as has already been discussed), using yeast but not allowing the dough to rise. Also, laminating the dough, as well as trying a wide range of hydration figures and oil percentages.

Generally when I make pizza, one of my main objectives is to use procedures and dough management techniques that can easily translate to a pizzeria setting, with efficiency being a very high priority (except when efficiency comes at the expense of quality, like when using a conveyor oven). One reason I pretty much never consider parbaking is because it ends up being horribly inefficient and it complicates things without creating a product that might command a higher price (which would pay for the extra labor created by doing things inefficiently). Some of what has already been discussed seems impractical in a pizzeria setting, too, like using yeast in a dough that is specifically not supposed to rise. Still, I'm gonna try some things that seem impractical to me, like using yeast for flavor, though not today.

So I'm gonna start simple, using the formula I listed above. I've considered adding a little sugar, mainly to give the crust some color, but I think I'll omit sugar for now.

I'll try to post some pictures ASAP, even if the pizza ends up looking disgusting.

Offline Aimless Ryan

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Re: Unleavened pizza experiment
« Reply #14 on: August 12, 2012, 07:27:33 PM »
Pic 1: Do you see the spots on the dough? This is about half an hour after I mixed it, and just before I rolled it. I'm pretty sure those spots weren't there right after I mixed the dough.

Pic 2: 14" trimmed skin weighed about 10 oz (if I remember correctly), which means it was very thin. TF=0.065 oz of dough per square inch if I did the math right.

Pic 3: I measured the sauce by feel, not weight or volume. Sauce was crushed tomatoes straight out of the can, with nothing added.

Pic 4: I also did not weigh the cheese, but I think it may have been around 7 oz.

Five more pics on the way.

Offline Aimless Ryan

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Re: Unleavened pizza experiment
« Reply #15 on: August 12, 2012, 07:47:51 PM »
Pic 1: I baked this pizza on the grill. I have no idea what the temperature was, but I figure it was around 500. (The dial on the front of the grill said 400-425, but I don't really trust the dial, especially when I have the stone in the grill.) A couple minutes into baking, when I slid my peel under the pizza to rotate it, the pizza gave me some accordion action, which is why there's no cheese in one spot. This surprised me because when I make NY style pizzas on the grill, I can rotate the pizza almost immediately if I want to. I'm not sure if this was caused by the unleavened dough or if it was because maybe I didn't give the stone enough time to heat up.

Pic 2: I baked the pizza for about 10 or 11 minutes. I was very surprised it took anywhere near that long. Unlike when I bake NY style pizza on the grill, the top of this pizza finished before the crust.

Pic 3: Bottom of the pizza.

Pic 4 and Pic 5: Very thin pizza. Take notice of the texture.

So do you suspect this pizza was any good?

Online Chicago Bob

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Re: Unleavened pizza experiment
« Reply #16 on: August 12, 2012, 08:44:18 PM »
I'd be willing to bet that it was real good....
Your dough is essentially a bit underdone (heat) "cracker", prolly a 'lil chewy...not a bad thing though in my world. Could you fold the slices over?

edit: not sure bout the Centos though...been a few years since I last found them to be very tinny...
« Last Edit: August 12, 2012, 09:04:20 PM by Chicago Bob »
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Offline Aimless Ryan

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Re: Unleavened pizza experiment
« Reply #17 on: August 12, 2012, 10:10:42 PM »
I'd be willing to bet that it was real good....
Your dough is essentially a bit underdone (heat) "cracker", prolly a 'lil chewy...not a bad thing though in my world. Could you fold the slices over?

edit: not sure bout the Centos though...been a few years since I last found them to be very tinny...

Yes, chewy/soft in the middle, but crispy/crunchy for at least a couple inches inside the circumference. It's kinda hard to say chewy, though, because it was almost too thin for chewy to apply. Yes, I could fold the middle pieces--or even roll them up like a Little Debbie cake if I'd wanted to--as the middle seemed to acquire a lot of moisture from the sauce and/or cheese. That was kind of strange because it was a pretty stiff dough, and it's not like either the sauce or cheese was wet. The crust in the middle tasted/felt kinda like a flour tortilla or even pasta.

The taste was very good, especially considering it was my first try at something so unorthodox and alien to me, and considering I relied mostly on instinct to guide me. Presentation was less than desirable, though, I suppose. Salt level seemed just about right, although I forgot to roll it over kosher salt.

I think I've experienced the tinny flavor with Cento crushed tomatoes before, too, but not today. I think with my next try I will use some yeast (with no rise, of course), in addition to decreasing the hydration.

Online Chicago Bob

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Re: Unleavened pizza experiment
« Reply #18 on: August 12, 2012, 10:30:33 PM »
After a little time to think about it, I'm leaning toward trying this:

100% KAAP
45% Water
1.5% Salt
5% Oil


Ryan,
If you add yeast to your above formula and continue with same day use,you will pretty much have a 70's style Chicago thin pizza....add 2 oz. dough for your 14in. size. Lard was our fat back in the day. Alot of places would cut the water 50/50 with beer.
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Online TXCraig1

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Re: Unleavened pizza experiment
« Reply #19 on: August 13, 2012, 12:24:39 AM »
Now that's a round pie. Did you trim it around a bowl or what???

I still think you would have liked it better if you made it like a pasty and used a cold, solid fat (lard, shortening, etc.) and cut it into the flour first. Personally, I think adding yeast would be mistake, but that's just my $0.02.

CL
Pizza is not bread.