Author Topic: Unleavened pizza experiment  (Read 4540 times)

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Offline Aimless Ryan

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Re: Unleavened pizza experiment
« Reply #20 on: August 13, 2012, 12:36:10 PM »
Now that's a round pie. Did you trim it around a bowl or what???

I still think you would have liked it better if you made it like a pasty and used a cold, solid fat (lard, shortening, etc.) and cut it into the flour first. Personally, I think adding yeast would be mistake, but that's just my $0.02.

CL

I placed a 14" aluminum pan atop the rolled dough and trimmed the excess with a small pizza wheel.

I may get around to trying the pastry method, although that's probably near the bottom of my list of things I could try. The great thing about mistakes is that they always teach you a lesson if you let them. So I'm gonna try this with some yeast today, just to see how yeast might affect everything. If it doesn't make a difference, or if it makes a negative difference, at least I'll know. Then I won't do it again.

I'm glad some people are interested in this. Thanks for contributing, y'all.


Online Pete-zza

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Re: Unleavened pizza experiment
« Reply #21 on: August 13, 2012, 12:41:36 PM »
Ryan,

I meant to ask you earlier if the white spots disappeared when you rolled out the dough or you did something else that caused the white spots to disappear?

The white spot phenomenon showed up earlier in the thread at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,18628.msg181492.html#msg181492. Since that thread ended up unfinished, we never did learn from pythonic (Nate) whether he ever found the cause.

Peter

Offline Chicago Bob

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Re: Unleavened pizza experiment
« Reply #22 on: August 13, 2012, 12:59:09 PM »
If you cut open that dough an the spots are not inside then could it not have something to do with salt and air...
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Offline Aimless Ryan

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Re: Unleavened pizza experiment
« Reply #23 on: August 13, 2012, 01:42:36 PM »
Ryan,

I meant to ask you earlier if the white spots disappeared when you rolled out the dough or you did something else that caused the white spots to disappear?

The white spot phenomenon showed up earlier in the thread at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,18628.msg181492.html#msg181492. Since that thread ended up unfinished, we never did learn from pythonic (Nate) whether he ever found the cause.

Peter

Those definitely look like the same kind of spots I had yesterday. Just by comparing his pic and mine, it seems there are some revealing procedural similarities. For example, they both appear to be relatively stiff, undermixed doughs that were left in a just-out-of-the-mixer state, rather than kneaded and rounded. Also, his post implies (like mine) that the spots weren't there at first.

I mixed the dough in a food processor (the "cornmeal" method often used by cracker crust fans for very low-hydration dough), so the dough was very lightly mixed, probably with a lot of "flour colonies" lurking throughout the dough. I think maybe what happened is that, as the flour continued to absorb water during the 30-minute pseudoautolyse, little colonies of poorly hydrated flour were expelled to the surface of the dough, like bubbles in water.

I'm guessing people usually don't autolyse stiff doughs like this, right? Even though this was not a true autolyse, it was much more like an autolyse than most so-called autolyses because I didn't add any yeast. So it almost was a true autolyse. I suspect that makes a huge difference because active fermentation would create more avenues for water to find these little flour colonies, even over such a short period as 30 minutes.

Does that make sense?

After looking at one of my hi-res skin pics, the dough is definitely not all one solid color. It's more of a conglomerate of bits and pieces. But I wouldn't say it has the spots that are so obvious in my first pic. Nothing like that.
« Last Edit: August 13, 2012, 01:45:31 PM by AimlessRyan »

Online Pete-zza

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Re: Unleavened pizza experiment
« Reply #24 on: August 13, 2012, 02:59:30 PM »
Ryan,

Actually, I did experiment with the use of autolyse for a cracker style dough using a food processor. See, for example, Reply 8 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,5762.msg49042.html#msg49042 and also Reply 103 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,5762.msg50513.html#msg50513. In the same thread, I also described the use of autolyse for the cracker style dough but using a stand mixer.

Peter

Offline Aimless Ryan

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Re: Unleavened pizza experiment
« Reply #25 on: August 13, 2012, 03:29:57 PM »
Ryan,

I meant to ask you earlier if the white spots disappeared when you rolled out the dough or you did something else that caused the white spots to disappear?

The white spot phenomenon showed up earlier in the thread at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,18628.msg181492.html#msg181492. Since that thread ended up unfinished, we never did learn from pythonic (Nate) whether he ever found the cause.

Peter

Also, your hypothesis here (http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,18628.msg181496.html#msg181496) makes a lot of sense, and it could be the explanation. I added the oil to the flour with the processor running, before adding the water. So I assume there were a lot of little bits of flour & oil that never got mixed with the water. I envision them as little flour-filled balloons, and I suppose the ones on the surface of the dough probably popped during the 30-minute dough rest, exposing little spots of popped flour balloon.

Offline Chicago Bob

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Re: Unleavened pizza experiment
« Reply #26 on: August 13, 2012, 03:52:59 PM »
exposing little spots of popped flour balloon.
Yes indeed.....kinda reminds me of a Bob Ross painting.    ;D
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Offline Aimless Ryan

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Re: Unleavened pizza experiment
« Reply #27 on: August 13, 2012, 03:59:10 PM »
Yes indeed.....kinda reminds me of a Bob Ross painting.    ;D

PRUSSIAN blue, Mofo!!! Prussian.

Offline Chicago Bob

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Re: Unleavened pizza experiment
« Reply #28 on: August 13, 2012, 04:00:48 PM »
..............nevermind  :-[           :-D
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Offline Aimless Ryan

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Re: Unleavened pizza experiment
« Reply #29 on: August 13, 2012, 07:29:25 PM »
Oh my god. Yum. Working on a recap and pics.


Offline Aimless Ryan

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Re: Unleavened pizza experiment
« Reply #30 on: August 13, 2012, 08:12:51 PM »
Here's today's formula, procedures, and thoughts:

100% KAAP
40% Water
1% ADY
1.5% Salt
5% Canola oil

I hydrated the yeast in the food processor bowl with about half of the water. I then added the flour and salt, turned on the processor, and poured the oil in through the top. Finally I added the rest of the water, leaving the processor running until the dough reached a cornmeal texture.

After forming a dough puck, I covered the dough and shredded some mozzarella. Within ten minutes of mixing the dough, I started rolling it. When the skin was big enough, I placed a pan over it and trimmed the dough to 14". Placed it on the peel > sauce > cheese > out to the grill > baked for about 8 minutes.

What I changed from yesterday's pizza:

  • Decreased hydration by 5%.
  • Used 1% yeast, instead of 0%.
  • Rolled the 14" dough skin a little thicker, at 11.25 oz, rather than 10 oz.
  • Grill was hotter, but that was beyond my control.
  • Consquently, the bake time was about 8:00, rather than 10:00.

Of the three variables I changed, I'll probably change one of them back to the original figure with the next pizza, but I'll do everything else the same as I did it today. Since I'm pretty sure the decreased hydration and increased dough thickness were very good changes, I'll probably revert back to omitting yeast again tomorrow, especially considering the whole premise of this thread is that I wanted to make an unfermented dough.

This pizza was really good. Unlike yesterday's pizza, it was not at all soggy in the middle. Rather, it was crunchy from edge to edge, which works for a pizza this thin.

One more thought: This crust is begging for more oil, but I won't change that until I get other things worked out.

I'll post the pics ASAP.

EDIT: One thing I haven't mentioned so far is that I have not docked the dough with either of these pizzas. Also, I do not intend to dock future pizzas in this experiment, although I'm not ruling it out as a prospective procedural change.
« Last Edit: August 15, 2012, 10:27:59 AM by AimlessRyan »

Offline Aimless Ryan

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Re: Unleavened pizza experiment
« Reply #31 on: August 13, 2012, 08:20:34 PM »
Pics.

Offline Aimless Ryan

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Re: Unleavened pizza experiment
« Reply #32 on: August 13, 2012, 08:22:02 PM »
Pics.

Offline Aimless Ryan

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Re: Unleavened pizza experiment
« Reply #33 on: August 13, 2012, 08:24:01 PM »
Final set of pics.

Offline Chicago Bob

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Re: Unleavened pizza experiment
« Reply #34 on: August 13, 2012, 09:04:27 PM »
Looks really good Ryan,
So, the lower HR brought your bake time down an gave you an even crispness, great.Does look like it could hold a 'lil more oil, are you wanting to get more tender? I'm real curious why you keep referring  back to the "unleavened" ideal.
Do you have a thin steel pan with a 1/2 to 3/4in. lip on it? I'm not talking about these popular black hard anodized thick aluminum jobs....something more old school maybe...

1% ady was not much for a same day, didn't taste any different did it...
« Last Edit: August 13, 2012, 09:27:18 PM by Chicago Bob »
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Offline Aimless Ryan

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Re: Unleavened pizza experiment
« Reply #35 on: August 13, 2012, 09:59:03 PM »
Looks really good Ryan,
So, the lower HR brought your bake time down an gave you an even crispness, great.Does look like it could hold a 'lil more oil, are you wanting to get more tender? I'm real curious why you keep referring  back to the "unleavened" ideal.
Do you have a thin steel pan with a 1/2 to 3/4in. lip on it? I'm not talking about these popular black hard anodized thick aluminum jobs....something more old school maybe...

1% ady was not much for a same day, didn't taste any different did it...

I think it was mostly the higher temperature that brought my bake time down. I'm thinking maybe I should do this without the foil under the stone, since the cheese is finishing before the crust, but I don't want to do that until I get some of the other variables worked out.

Hard to say why I think there should be more oil. I know why, but I don't know if I can put it into words. I guess you'd say it's to make the crust more tender.

I keep referring to "unleavened" because... um, that's kinda the premise of this thread. If the next pizza ends up sucking just because I didn't use any yeast, I'll probably lean toward using yeast in the future.

Don't think I have any steel pans. I've been meaning to order some steel deep dish pans for about a year, but I don't think that's what you were envisioning.

I'm not sure if it tasted any different with the ADY. That's pretty much why yeast is the only change I'm going to make with the next pizza.

Offline Chicago Bob

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Re: Unleavened pizza experiment
« Reply #36 on: August 13, 2012, 10:17:25 PM »

I keep referring to "unleavened" because... um, that's kinda the premise of this thread. If the next pizza ends up sucking just because I didn't use any yeast, I'll probably lean toward using yeast in the future.


ok pizza pal,that's cool...I jus thought that since YOU wanted to try yeast I'd take ya on over to the Greater Chicagoland Area with this puppy....we'll get there on the next trip, no worries    ;)
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buceriasdon

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Re: Unleavened pizza experiment
« Reply #37 on: August 14, 2012, 07:53:36 AM »
Ryan, Have you considered a day before unleavened mix and knead and letting the dough "age" ?
Don

Offline Aimless Ryan

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Re: Unleavened pizza experiment
« Reply #38 on: August 14, 2012, 10:43:09 AM »
Ryan, Have you considered a day before unleavened mix and knead and letting the dough "age" ?
Don

Yeah, I have thought about that. But my inspiration for this project came from: 1) The fact that I didn't want to plan ahead with dough the last few days because I've known I might leave town without much notice; 2) I don't want to open a #10 can of tomatoes, knowing I'll be gone for a few days; and 3) Chicago Bob's instant Shakey's thread in the Cracker section (http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,20399.0.html).

Also, sometimes you just have to do something different to get your mind off of what you've been doing over and over; to force yourself to try new things and learn in a different kind of way than you're used to learning. I've already learned a ton from this, and I've eaten a couple really good pizzas that I expected would suck.

Since you mentioned it, I'll probably try it. But it's pretty far down the queue right now.

Offline Aimless Ryan

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Re: Unleavened pizza experiment
« Reply #39 on: August 14, 2012, 10:48:18 AM »
Did anyone notice how much better the picture of the last pizza looked in the sunlight compared to how it looked in the creepy kitchen lighting? Frustrating.


 

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