Author Topic: Unleavened pizza experiment  (Read 6308 times)

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Offline Aimless Ryan

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Re: Unleavened pizza experiment
« Reply #25 on: August 13, 2012, 03:29:57 PM »
Ryan,

I meant to ask you earlier if the white spots disappeared when you rolled out the dough or you did something else that caused the white spots to disappear?

The white spot phenomenon showed up earlier in the thread at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,18628.msg181492.html#msg181492. Since that thread ended up unfinished, we never did learn from pythonic (Nate) whether he ever found the cause.

Peter

Also, your hypothesis here (http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,18628.msg181496.html#msg181496) makes a lot of sense, and it could be the explanation. I added the oil to the flour with the processor running, before adding the water. So I assume there were a lot of little bits of flour & oil that never got mixed with the water. I envision them as little flour-filled balloons, and I suppose the ones on the surface of the dough probably popped during the 30-minute dough rest, exposing little spots of popped flour balloon.
Ryan
http://www.ryanspizzablog.blogspot.com

Disclaimer: Don't necessarily believe anything I say here. My brain ain't quite right anymore (unless it is). If I come off as rude or argumentative, that's probably not my intention. Rather, that's just me being honest, to myself and everyone else; partly because I don't have enough time left to BS either you or myself. If you are offended by anything I say, it's probably because you think lying to people (to be "polite") is a good idea. I don't.


Offline Chicago Bob

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Re: Unleavened pizza experiment
« Reply #26 on: August 13, 2012, 03:52:59 PM »
exposing little spots of popped flour balloon.
Yes indeed.....kinda reminds me of a Bob Ross painting.    ;D
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Offline Aimless Ryan

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Re: Unleavened pizza experiment
« Reply #27 on: August 13, 2012, 03:59:10 PM »
Yes indeed.....kinda reminds me of a Bob Ross painting.    ;D

PRUSSIAN blue, Mofo!!! Prussian.
Ryan
http://www.ryanspizzablog.blogspot.com

Disclaimer: Don't necessarily believe anything I say here. My brain ain't quite right anymore (unless it is). If I come off as rude or argumentative, that's probably not my intention. Rather, that's just me being honest, to myself and everyone else; partly because I don't have enough time left to BS either you or myself. If you are offended by anything I say, it's probably because you think lying to people (to be "polite") is a good idea. I don't.

Offline Chicago Bob

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Re: Unleavened pizza experiment
« Reply #28 on: August 13, 2012, 04:00:48 PM »
..............nevermind  :-[           :-D
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Offline Aimless Ryan

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Re: Unleavened pizza experiment
« Reply #29 on: August 13, 2012, 07:29:25 PM »
Oh my god. Yum. Working on a recap and pics.
Ryan
http://www.ryanspizzablog.blogspot.com

Disclaimer: Don't necessarily believe anything I say here. My brain ain't quite right anymore (unless it is). If I come off as rude or argumentative, that's probably not my intention. Rather, that's just me being honest, to myself and everyone else; partly because I don't have enough time left to BS either you or myself. If you are offended by anything I say, it's probably because you think lying to people (to be "polite") is a good idea. I don't.

Offline Aimless Ryan

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Re: Unleavened pizza experiment
« Reply #30 on: August 13, 2012, 08:12:51 PM »
Here's today's formula, procedures, and thoughts:

100% KAAP
40% Water
1% ADY
1.5% Salt
5% Canola oil

I hydrated the yeast in the food processor bowl with about half of the water. I then added the flour and salt, turned on the processor, and poured the oil in through the top. Finally I added the rest of the water, leaving the processor running until the dough reached a cornmeal texture.

After forming a dough puck, I covered the dough and shredded some mozzarella. Within ten minutes of mixing the dough, I started rolling it. When the skin was big enough, I placed a pan over it and trimmed the dough to 14". Placed it on the peel > sauce > cheese > out to the grill > baked for about 8 minutes.

What I changed from yesterday's pizza:

  • Decreased hydration by 5%.
  • Used 1% yeast, instead of 0%.
  • Rolled the 14" dough skin a little thicker, at 11.25 oz, rather than 10 oz.
  • Grill was hotter, but that was beyond my control.
  • Consquently, the bake time was about 8:00, rather than 10:00.

Of the three variables I changed, I'll probably change one of them back to the original figure with the next pizza, but I'll do everything else the same as I did it today. Since I'm pretty sure the decreased hydration and increased dough thickness were very good changes, I'll probably revert back to omitting yeast again tomorrow, especially considering the whole premise of this thread is that I wanted to make an unfermented dough.

This pizza was really good. Unlike yesterday's pizza, it was not at all soggy in the middle. Rather, it was crunchy from edge to edge, which works for a pizza this thin.

One more thought: This crust is begging for more oil, but I won't change that until I get other things worked out.

I'll post the pics ASAP.

EDIT: One thing I haven't mentioned so far is that I have not docked the dough with either of these pizzas. Also, I do not intend to dock future pizzas in this experiment, although I'm not ruling it out as a prospective procedural change.
« Last Edit: August 15, 2012, 10:27:59 AM by AimlessRyan »
Ryan
http://www.ryanspizzablog.blogspot.com

Disclaimer: Don't necessarily believe anything I say here. My brain ain't quite right anymore (unless it is). If I come off as rude or argumentative, that's probably not my intention. Rather, that's just me being honest, to myself and everyone else; partly because I don't have enough time left to BS either you or myself. If you are offended by anything I say, it's probably because you think lying to people (to be "polite") is a good idea. I don't.

Offline Aimless Ryan

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Re: Unleavened pizza experiment
« Reply #31 on: August 13, 2012, 08:20:34 PM »
Pics.
Ryan
http://www.ryanspizzablog.blogspot.com

Disclaimer: Don't necessarily believe anything I say here. My brain ain't quite right anymore (unless it is). If I come off as rude or argumentative, that's probably not my intention. Rather, that's just me being honest, to myself and everyone else; partly because I don't have enough time left to BS either you or myself. If you are offended by anything I say, it's probably because you think lying to people (to be "polite") is a good idea. I don't.

Offline Aimless Ryan

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Re: Unleavened pizza experiment
« Reply #32 on: August 13, 2012, 08:22:02 PM »
Pics.
Ryan
http://www.ryanspizzablog.blogspot.com

Disclaimer: Don't necessarily believe anything I say here. My brain ain't quite right anymore (unless it is). If I come off as rude or argumentative, that's probably not my intention. Rather, that's just me being honest, to myself and everyone else; partly because I don't have enough time left to BS either you or myself. If you are offended by anything I say, it's probably because you think lying to people (to be "polite") is a good idea. I don't.

Offline Aimless Ryan

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Re: Unleavened pizza experiment
« Reply #33 on: August 13, 2012, 08:24:01 PM »
Final set of pics.
Ryan
http://www.ryanspizzablog.blogspot.com

Disclaimer: Don't necessarily believe anything I say here. My brain ain't quite right anymore (unless it is). If I come off as rude or argumentative, that's probably not my intention. Rather, that's just me being honest, to myself and everyone else; partly because I don't have enough time left to BS either you or myself. If you are offended by anything I say, it's probably because you think lying to people (to be "polite") is a good idea. I don't.


Offline Chicago Bob

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Re: Unleavened pizza experiment
« Reply #34 on: August 13, 2012, 09:04:27 PM »
Looks really good Ryan,
So, the lower HR brought your bake time down an gave you an even crispness, great.Does look like it could hold a 'lil more oil, are you wanting to get more tender? I'm real curious why you keep referring  back to the "unleavened" ideal.
Do you have a thin steel pan with a 1/2 to 3/4in. lip on it? I'm not talking about these popular black hard anodized thick aluminum jobs....something more old school maybe...

1% ady was not much for a same day, didn't taste any different did it...
« Last Edit: August 13, 2012, 09:27:18 PM by Chicago Bob »
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Offline Aimless Ryan

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Re: Unleavened pizza experiment
« Reply #35 on: August 13, 2012, 09:59:03 PM »
Looks really good Ryan,
So, the lower HR brought your bake time down an gave you an even crispness, great.Does look like it could hold a 'lil more oil, are you wanting to get more tender? I'm real curious why you keep referring  back to the "unleavened" ideal.
Do you have a thin steel pan with a 1/2 to 3/4in. lip on it? I'm not talking about these popular black hard anodized thick aluminum jobs....something more old school maybe...

1% ady was not much for a same day, didn't taste any different did it...

I think it was mostly the higher temperature that brought my bake time down. I'm thinking maybe I should do this without the foil under the stone, since the cheese is finishing before the crust, but I don't want to do that until I get some of the other variables worked out.

Hard to say why I think there should be more oil. I know why, but I don't know if I can put it into words. I guess you'd say it's to make the crust more tender.

I keep referring to "unleavened" because... um, that's kinda the premise of this thread. If the next pizza ends up sucking just because I didn't use any yeast, I'll probably lean toward using yeast in the future.

Don't think I have any steel pans. I've been meaning to order some steel deep dish pans for about a year, but I don't think that's what you were envisioning.

I'm not sure if it tasted any different with the ADY. That's pretty much why yeast is the only change I'm going to make with the next pizza.
Ryan
http://www.ryanspizzablog.blogspot.com

Disclaimer: Don't necessarily believe anything I say here. My brain ain't quite right anymore (unless it is). If I come off as rude or argumentative, that's probably not my intention. Rather, that's just me being honest, to myself and everyone else; partly because I don't have enough time left to BS either you or myself. If you are offended by anything I say, it's probably because you think lying to people (to be "polite") is a good idea. I don't.

Offline Chicago Bob

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Re: Unleavened pizza experiment
« Reply #36 on: August 13, 2012, 10:17:25 PM »

I keep referring to "unleavened" because... um, that's kinda the premise of this thread. If the next pizza ends up sucking just because I didn't use any yeast, I'll probably lean toward using yeast in the future.


ok pizza pal,that's cool...I jus thought that since YOU wanted to try yeast I'd take ya on over to the Greater Chicagoland Area with this puppy....we'll get there on the next trip, no worries    ;)
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buceriasdon

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Re: Unleavened pizza experiment
« Reply #37 on: August 14, 2012, 07:53:36 AM »
Ryan, Have you considered a day before unleavened mix and knead and letting the dough "age" ?
Don

Offline Aimless Ryan

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Re: Unleavened pizza experiment
« Reply #38 on: August 14, 2012, 10:43:09 AM »
Ryan, Have you considered a day before unleavened mix and knead and letting the dough "age" ?
Don

Yeah, I have thought about that. But my inspiration for this project came from: 1) The fact that I didn't want to plan ahead with dough the last few days because I've known I might leave town without much notice; 2) I don't want to open a #10 can of tomatoes, knowing I'll be gone for a few days; and 3) Chicago Bob's instant Shakey's thread in the Cracker section (http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,20399.0.html).

Also, sometimes you just have to do something different to get your mind off of what you've been doing over and over; to force yourself to try new things and learn in a different kind of way than you're used to learning. I've already learned a ton from this, and I've eaten a couple really good pizzas that I expected would suck.

Since you mentioned it, I'll probably try it. But it's pretty far down the queue right now.
Ryan
http://www.ryanspizzablog.blogspot.com

Disclaimer: Don't necessarily believe anything I say here. My brain ain't quite right anymore (unless it is). If I come off as rude or argumentative, that's probably not my intention. Rather, that's just me being honest, to myself and everyone else; partly because I don't have enough time left to BS either you or myself. If you are offended by anything I say, it's probably because you think lying to people (to be "polite") is a good idea. I don't.

Offline Aimless Ryan

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Re: Unleavened pizza experiment
« Reply #39 on: August 14, 2012, 10:48:18 AM »
Did anyone notice how much better the picture of the last pizza looked in the sunlight compared to how it looked in the creepy kitchen lighting? Frustrating.
Ryan
http://www.ryanspizzablog.blogspot.com

Disclaimer: Don't necessarily believe anything I say here. My brain ain't quite right anymore (unless it is). If I come off as rude or argumentative, that's probably not my intention. Rather, that's just me being honest, to myself and everyone else; partly because I don't have enough time left to BS either you or myself. If you are offended by anything I say, it's probably because you think lying to people (to be "polite") is a good idea. I don't.

Offline Chicago Bob

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Re: Unleavened pizza experiment
« Reply #40 on: August 14, 2012, 11:27:23 AM »
Did anyone notice how much better the picture of the last pizza looked in the sunlight compared to how it looked in the creepy kitchen lighting? Frustrating.
First thing I noticed...thought you switched up an did a NY'er on us!   ;D
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Offline Aimless Ryan

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Re: Unleavened pizza experiment
« Reply #41 on: August 14, 2012, 07:21:58 PM »
Just finished today's pizza. I did essentially everything the same as I did for yesterday's pizza but with no yeast. Verdict: Total crap. My conclusion is that yeast makes a big difference, even if you don't give it any time to do its job.

Don't know if I'll bother posting pics.

Next pizza's dough will probably be the same as yesterday's, but with another 5% oil, and possibly double the yeast (2%). It'll probably be about four days before I make the next pizza because I'm heading north tomorrow.
Ryan
http://www.ryanspizzablog.blogspot.com

Disclaimer: Don't necessarily believe anything I say here. My brain ain't quite right anymore (unless it is). If I come off as rude or argumentative, that's probably not my intention. Rather, that's just me being honest, to myself and everyone else; partly because I don't have enough time left to BS either you or myself. If you are offended by anything I say, it's probably because you think lying to people (to be "polite") is a good idea. I don't.


Offline pythonic

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Re: Unleavened pizza experiment
« Reply #42 on: August 14, 2012, 08:33:14 PM »
Regarding the mysterious white spots:

I found they are little pockets of flour due to either lack of hydration or under mixing.  They seem to appear as the outside of the doughball starts to dry out.

Nate
« Last Edit: August 15, 2012, 01:41:14 AM by pythonic »
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buceriasdon

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Re: Unleavened pizza experiment
« Reply #43 on: August 14, 2012, 08:34:28 PM »
Ryan, Thank you for keeping an open mind with your experiments.
Regards, Don

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Unleavened pizza experiment
« Reply #44 on: August 14, 2012, 09:03:56 PM »
Ryan,

I have found through my experimentation with cracker style doughs that using a lot of yeast helps from a crust flavor standpoint. Also, because cracker style doughs usually are of low hydration, it can take a lot longer for the dough to ferment and gain the benefits of the byproducts of fermentation. In your case, where you are not giving the dough a lot of fermentation time (almost none), you might have to rely more on the flavor contributions of the yeast.

I discussed the role of yeast for flavor contribution in cracker style doughs at Reply 25 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,16775.msg166378/topicseen.html#msg166378 and at Reply 1 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,7572.msg65001/topicseen.html#msg65001.

Peter

Offline Aimless Ryan

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Re: Unleavened pizza experiment
« Reply #45 on: August 14, 2012, 09:27:40 PM »
Ryan,

I have found through my experimentation with cracker style doughs that using a lot of yeast helps from a crust flavor standpoint. Also, because cracker style doughs usually are of low hydration, it can take a lot longer for the dough to ferment and gain the benefits of the byproducts of fermentation. In your case, where you are not giving the dough a lot of fermentation time (almost none), you might have to rely more on the flavor contributions of the yeast.

I discussed the role of yeast for flavor contribution in cracker style doughs at Reply 25 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,16775.msg166378/topicseen.html#msg166378 and at Reply 1 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,7572.msg65001/topicseen.html#msg65001.

Peter

Hmmm, maybe I should try this (a ton of yeast) with my Tommy's dough, and use the dough the day I make it.
Ryan
http://www.ryanspizzablog.blogspot.com

Disclaimer: Don't necessarily believe anything I say here. My brain ain't quite right anymore (unless it is). If I come off as rude or argumentative, that's probably not my intention. Rather, that's just me being honest, to myself and everyone else; partly because I don't have enough time left to BS either you or myself. If you are offended by anything I say, it's probably because you think lying to people (to be "polite") is a good idea. I don't.

Offline Chicago Bob

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Re: Unleavened pizza experiment
« Reply #46 on: August 15, 2012, 12:33:47 PM »
Hmmm, maybe I should try this (a ton of yeast) with my Tommy's dough, and use the dough the day I make it.
+1   ;)
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Offline Aimless Ryan

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Re: Unleavened pizza experiment
« Reply #47 on: August 19, 2012, 12:28:41 PM »
I got home from Cedar Point and Lake Erie yesterday afternoon and resumed this experiment in the evening. While I was gone, my refurbished KitchenAid arrived from the factory, having been useless for over a year! Even though I was anxious to use my mixer, I mixed the dough in the food processor because I like how it cuts the oil into the flour, creating countless tiny pockets of oily dough, rather than dispersing the oil uniformly (which is likely the result I'd get if I used the mixer). The food processor creates a texture that seems appropriate for this kind of crust.

Here's the formula:

100% Flour
40% Water
2% ADY
1.5% Salt
10% Canola oil

Changes from previous pizza: 2% ADY, rather than 0%; and 10% canola oil, rather than 5%. I tried to do everything else the same.

I had a problem with the dough because some of the water missed its target as I poured it into the dry ingredients through the opening on the top of the food processor. After the mishap, I added a little more water to try to make up the difference of what I'd lost, but I clearly didn't add enough because I ended up with a lot of excess flour that wasn't incorporated into the dough. I estimate the actual hydration of this dough to have been under 35%.

The results weren't bad, but it wasn't what I was trying to do, so it didn't really tell me much. The crust was pretty crunchy; a little crunchier than what I like. Still, like all the pizzas I've made in this experiment, it was good. (The pizzas that included yeast were considerably better than the ones that had no yeast, though.) I can't say that 2% ADY seemed to make the pizza much different than the pizza that used 1% ADY, but it did seem to aid browning of the crust.

At least three of the four pizzas I've made for this thread tasted like pizzas I've bought at some point in my life. I'm kinda surprised by this because I've used what I'd consider some very unorthodox procedures.

Considering yesterday's procedures didn't go according to plan, today I intend to repeat what I meant to do yesterday.

Pic 1 shows how I make these pizzas round.
Pic 2 may show that it was a pretty rough dough, with a lot of flour that did not get incorporated into the dough.

Several more pics on the way.
Ryan
http://www.ryanspizzablog.blogspot.com

Disclaimer: Don't necessarily believe anything I say here. My brain ain't quite right anymore (unless it is). If I come off as rude or argumentative, that's probably not my intention. Rather, that's just me being honest, to myself and everyone else; partly because I don't have enough time left to BS either you or myself. If you are offended by anything I say, it's probably because you think lying to people (to be "polite") is a good idea. I don't.

Offline Aimless Ryan

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Re: Unleavened pizza experiment
« Reply #48 on: August 19, 2012, 12:33:11 PM »
Pic 1: After about 2 minutes in the grill.
Pic 2: After about 4 minutes in the grill.
Pic 3: After about 6 minutes in the grill.
Pic 4: After about 8 minutes in the grill. Ready to remove.
Ryan
http://www.ryanspizzablog.blogspot.com

Disclaimer: Don't necessarily believe anything I say here. My brain ain't quite right anymore (unless it is). If I come off as rude or argumentative, that's probably not my intention. Rather, that's just me being honest, to myself and everyone else; partly because I don't have enough time left to BS either you or myself. If you are offended by anything I say, it's probably because you think lying to people (to be "polite") is a good idea. I don't.

Offline Chicago Bob

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Re: Unleavened pizza experiment
« Reply #49 on: August 19, 2012, 01:40:23 PM »
Pizza looks good Ryan. You didn't give any thoughts about your doubeling the oil...considered maybe trying corn oil? How about shortening or (preferably) lard and cutting it into the flour with the food processor...
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