Author Topic: Unleavened pizza experiment  (Read 4547 times)

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Online Chicago Bob

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Re: Unleavened pizza experiment
« Reply #40 on: August 14, 2012, 11:27:23 AM »
Did anyone notice how much better the picture of the last pizza looked in the sunlight compared to how it looked in the creepy kitchen lighting? Frustrating.
First thing I noticed...thought you switched up an did a NY'er on us!   ;D
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Offline Aimless Ryan

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Re: Unleavened pizza experiment
« Reply #41 on: August 14, 2012, 07:21:58 PM »
Just finished today's pizza. I did essentially everything the same as I did for yesterday's pizza but with no yeast. Verdict: Total crap. My conclusion is that yeast makes a big difference, even if you don't give it any time to do its job.

Don't know if I'll bother posting pics.

Next pizza's dough will probably be the same as yesterday's, but with another 5% oil, and possibly double the yeast (2%). It'll probably be about four days before I make the next pizza because I'm heading north tomorrow.

Offline pythonic

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Re: Unleavened pizza experiment
« Reply #42 on: August 14, 2012, 08:33:14 PM »
Regarding the mysterious white spots:

I found they are little pockets of flour due to either lack of hydration or under mixing.  They seem to appear as the outside of the doughball starts to dry out.

Nate
« Last Edit: August 15, 2012, 01:41:14 AM by pythonic »
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buceriasdon

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Re: Unleavened pizza experiment
« Reply #43 on: August 14, 2012, 08:34:28 PM »
Ryan, Thank you for keeping an open mind with your experiments.
Regards, Don

Online Pete-zza

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Re: Unleavened pizza experiment
« Reply #44 on: August 14, 2012, 09:03:56 PM »
Ryan,

I have found through my experimentation with cracker style doughs that using a lot of yeast helps from a crust flavor standpoint. Also, because cracker style doughs usually are of low hydration, it can take a lot longer for the dough to ferment and gain the benefits of the byproducts of fermentation. In your case, where you are not giving the dough a lot of fermentation time (almost none), you might have to rely more on the flavor contributions of the yeast.

I discussed the role of yeast for flavor contribution in cracker style doughs at Reply 25 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,16775.msg166378/topicseen.html#msg166378 and at Reply 1 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,7572.msg65001/topicseen.html#msg65001.

Peter

Offline Aimless Ryan

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Re: Unleavened pizza experiment
« Reply #45 on: August 14, 2012, 09:27:40 PM »
Ryan,

I have found through my experimentation with cracker style doughs that using a lot of yeast helps from a crust flavor standpoint. Also, because cracker style doughs usually are of low hydration, it can take a lot longer for the dough to ferment and gain the benefits of the byproducts of fermentation. In your case, where you are not giving the dough a lot of fermentation time (almost none), you might have to rely more on the flavor contributions of the yeast.

I discussed the role of yeast for flavor contribution in cracker style doughs at Reply 25 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,16775.msg166378/topicseen.html#msg166378 and at Reply 1 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,7572.msg65001/topicseen.html#msg65001.

Peter

Hmmm, maybe I should try this (a ton of yeast) with my Tommy's dough, and use the dough the day I make it.

Online Chicago Bob

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Re: Unleavened pizza experiment
« Reply #46 on: August 15, 2012, 12:33:47 PM »
Hmmm, maybe I should try this (a ton of yeast) with my Tommy's dough, and use the dough the day I make it.
+1   ;)
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Offline Aimless Ryan

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Re: Unleavened pizza experiment
« Reply #47 on: August 19, 2012, 12:28:41 PM »
I got home from Cedar Point and Lake Erie yesterday afternoon and resumed this experiment in the evening. While I was gone, my refurbished KitchenAid arrived from the factory, having been useless for over a year! Even though I was anxious to use my mixer, I mixed the dough in the food processor because I like how it cuts the oil into the flour, creating countless tiny pockets of oily dough, rather than dispersing the oil uniformly (which is likely the result I'd get if I used the mixer). The food processor creates a texture that seems appropriate for this kind of crust.

Here's the formula:

100% Flour
40% Water
2% ADY
1.5% Salt
10% Canola oil

Changes from previous pizza: 2% ADY, rather than 0%; and 10% canola oil, rather than 5%. I tried to do everything else the same.

I had a problem with the dough because some of the water missed its target as I poured it into the dry ingredients through the opening on the top of the food processor. After the mishap, I added a little more water to try to make up the difference of what I'd lost, but I clearly didn't add enough because I ended up with a lot of excess flour that wasn't incorporated into the dough. I estimate the actual hydration of this dough to have been under 35%.

The results weren't bad, but it wasn't what I was trying to do, so it didn't really tell me much. The crust was pretty crunchy; a little crunchier than what I like. Still, like all the pizzas I've made in this experiment, it was good. (The pizzas that included yeast were considerably better than the ones that had no yeast, though.) I can't say that 2% ADY seemed to make the pizza much different than the pizza that used 1% ADY, but it did seem to aid browning of the crust.

At least three of the four pizzas I've made for this thread tasted like pizzas I've bought at some point in my life. I'm kinda surprised by this because I've used what I'd consider some very unorthodox procedures.

Considering yesterday's procedures didn't go according to plan, today I intend to repeat what I meant to do yesterday.

Pic 1 shows how I make these pizzas round.
Pic 2 may show that it was a pretty rough dough, with a lot of flour that did not get incorporated into the dough.

Several more pics on the way.

Offline Aimless Ryan

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Re: Unleavened pizza experiment
« Reply #48 on: August 19, 2012, 12:33:11 PM »
Pic 1: After about 2 minutes in the grill.
Pic 2: After about 4 minutes in the grill.
Pic 3: After about 6 minutes in the grill.
Pic 4: After about 8 minutes in the grill. Ready to remove.

Online Chicago Bob

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Re: Unleavened pizza experiment
« Reply #49 on: August 19, 2012, 01:40:23 PM »
Pizza looks good Ryan. You didn't give any thoughts about your doubeling the oil...considered maybe trying corn oil? How about shortening or (preferably) lard and cutting it into the flour with the food processor...
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Offline Aimless Ryan

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Re: Unleavened pizza experiment
« Reply #50 on: August 19, 2012, 02:38:23 PM »
Pizza looks good Ryan. You didn't give any thoughts about your doubeling the oil...considered maybe trying corn oil? How about shortening or (preferably) lard and cutting it into the flour with the food processor...

Thanks.

Doubling the oil seemed to make it more right, and I think more oil would probably make it even better. I'm definitely willing to try corn oil, shortening, lard, and other types of fat, particularly because I am curious to find out how different types of fat might change the taste. But that's kinda far down my list of priorities.

Once I get to a certain point, I'll probably also try laminating the dough. Although I like the results I've been getting so far, it seems to me that laminated dough almost always ends up with a better crust texture than unlaminated dough for most pizzas of this style.

As I said in my previous post, the next pizza will be a redo of what was supposed to be last night's pizza. With subsequent pizzas, I'm thinking about giving the dough some time to ferment, beginning with maybe an hour, then two hours, etc. Even though I used 2% ADY last night (without giving the dough any time to ferment, of course), there wasn't much sign of rise or oven spring.

Once I start giving the dough some time to ferment, I probably will always use the dough immediately after rolling because I typically don't like pizzas that are rolled and then given time to rise in a pan. In pizzerias with pizzas that resemble what I'm making here, it's probably pretty standard to roll out and pan at least a couple dozen skins well before they're needed, but I suspect these kinds of pizzerias only leave the skins out at room temperature for half an hour or less. Like Tommy's. I assume they probably roll out at least enough skins to cover the upcoming lunch or dinner rush. Before lunch rush they probably put most of the skins on a large roller rack in the cooler but keep about 20 on a small rack near the make table. This probably explains why some Tommy's crusts have blisters while other Tommy's crusts don't, and why none of their pizzas show signs of significant post-sheeting rise time.

Online Chicago Bob

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Re: Unleavened pizza experiment
« Reply #51 on: August 19, 2012, 05:28:27 PM »
All sounds good....was wondering when you were going to mention lamination  ;)
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Online Chicago Bob

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Re: Unleavened pizza experiment
« Reply #52 on: August 19, 2012, 07:29:06 PM »
Quick question Ryan. I know you are a pepperoni monster...Bridgford or Hormel/Armour?  Thanks!
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Offline Aimless Ryan

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Re: Unleavened pizza experiment
« Reply #53 on: August 19, 2012, 08:36:59 PM »
Quick question Ryan. I know you are a pepperoni monster...Bridgford or Hormel/Armour?  Thanks!

I don't know what 'pepperoni monster' means, but I like the Bridgford 16 oz stick, although I am getting kinda sick of it, and I've been sick of slicing it for a long time. Not sure if I've ever tried Hormel or Armour--I probably have--but the Bridgford stick is the only consumer-quality pepperoni I've ever liked. I think a pizza joint I worked at used Hormel, and I liked it; it was just like Ezzo GiAntonio from what I remember. If it was Hormel, I'm pretty sure it was not the same as their grocery store stuff.

I'm dying to get some Ezzo GiAntonio.

Also, I just finished tonight's pizza. Probably no pics on the way, but I have some things to say about the pizza.

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Re: Unleavened pizza experiment
« Reply #54 on: August 19, 2012, 08:56:42 PM »
I don't know what 'pepperoni monster' means, but I like the Bridgford 16 oz stick, although I am getting kinda sick of it, and I've been sick of slicing it for a long time. Not sure if I've ever tried Hormel or Armour--I probably have--but the Bridgford stick is the only consumer-quality pepperoni I've ever liked. I think a pizza joint I worked at used Hormel, and I liked it; it was just like Ezzo GiAntonio from what I remember. If it was Hormel, I'm pretty sure it was not the same as their grocery store stuff.

I'm dying to get some Ezzo GiAntonio.

Also, I just finished tonight's pizza. Probably no pics on the way, but I have some things to say about the pizza.
Sorta like The Cookie Monster....

"where I bought a case once. I'm almost certainly game for splitting a case with you, as long as we're both after the same product; especially since I think we both tend to go through a lot more product than even most of the rabid pizza nuts on these boards."
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Offline Aimless Ryan

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Re: Unleavened pizza experiment
« Reply #55 on: August 19, 2012, 09:12:57 PM »
Sorta like The Cookie Monster....

"where I bought a case once. I'm almost certainly game for splitting a case with you, as long as we're both after the same product; especially since I think we both tend to go through a lot more product than even most of the rabid pizza nuts on these boards."

Ahh, I got ya. Sometimes I go through phases where I make A LOT of pizza (like right now). When I know I'm gonna be able to use it, I'm more willing to buy in bulk. It's so hard to get good pepperoni in consumer quantities, y'know. And when you can, the price is ridiculous (like with the Vermont stuff in the pepperoni thread). I wouldn't say I'm a pepperoni monster any more than I'm a cheese monster, tomato monster, or flour monster.

Offline Aimless Ryan

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Re: Unleavened pizza experiment
« Reply #56 on: August 20, 2012, 11:03:40 AM »
I'm gonna recap last night's pizza before I forget important things I wanted to say.

100% KAAP flour
40% Water
2% ADY
1.5% Salt
10% Canola oil

Like always with this experiment, I rolled the dough almost immediately after mixing it, then I topped and baked it almost immediately after rolling it.

Even though I'm pretty sure I didn't screw up any of the measurements this time, the dough was almost as stiff as the previous day's dough (which lost some hydration due to a pouring malfunction). I'm surprised the dough is still so dry with this level of hydration and oil.

Some thoughts:

  • I believe the 14" skin weighed 13 oz (TF=0.85 oz of dough per square inch). That's too thick for this, at least how I'm doing it right now, as the crust was just a little too crunchy. 11.5 to 12 oz is probably about right (TF=0.075 to 0.078).
  • Bake time was closer to 7 minutes with this pizza. The grill seemed hotter than usual, which was evident in the fact that the handle became difficult to hold for more than a few seconds.
  • I'm losing my daylight, which is making it more difficult to take decent pictures. It's starting to get a little dim shortly after 7:00. Sucks!
  • No point in showing pics of this one. It looked just like the previous one.

I don't know what I should try next. I'm thinking either a little higher hydration, a little more oil, or a little fermentation time (an hour). Or maybe even a much higher hydration figure, just for a nice change-up. Right now I'm out of KAAP anyway, so I may not make one of these pizzas today.

Offline Aimless Ryan

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Re: Unleavened pizza experiment
« Reply #57 on: August 20, 2012, 03:25:14 PM »
Since the boards are so slow right now, I've decided to go back through this thread and try to reacquaint myself with some ideas I may have already forgotten.

In the very first response, Don had this to say (I assume in reference to his own attempts at making an unleavened or unfermented pizza):

Ryan, I use salt and yeast both, I really think it does add to the flavor.

Yes, it does add to the flavor. If there's anyone who doubts that, I suggest that you mix up a couple small dough balls. For one of the dough balls, add yeast. For the other dough ball, omit yeast. Then take a whiff. One smells like flour, while the other smells like pizza dough. That smell translates to flavor.

Offline Aimless Ryan

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Re: Unleavened pizza experiment
« Reply #58 on: August 20, 2012, 03:29:08 PM »
I would not use yeast if you are not going to give it time to work. I'd use lard (or shortening) and a pretty good bit of it. I'd cut in into the dough cold like a pastry.

CL

Craig, can you list some baked goods that use this method? Is it for leavening or flavor or both?

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Re: Unleavened pizza experiment
« Reply #59 on: August 20, 2012, 05:06:42 PM »
Ryan, Yes, my experience was indeed even with no rise time to the yeast, the flavor was enhanced. I appreciate you confirming what I already knew.
Don


Since the boards are so slow right now, I've decided to go back through this thread and try to reacquaint myself with some ideas I may have already forgotten.

In the very first response, Don had this to say (I assume in reference to his own attempts at making an unleavened or unfermented pizza):

Yes, it does add to the flavor. If there's anyone who doubts that, I suggest that you mix up a couple small dough balls. For one of the dough balls, add yeast. For the other dough ball, omit yeast. Then take a whiff. One smells like flour, while the other smells like pizza dough. That smell translates to flavor.


 

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