Author Topic: The Reinhart Dialog  (Read 4797 times)

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Offline pizzablogger

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Re: The Reinhart Dialog
« Reply #40 on: August 17, 2012, 04:32:44 PM »
Just say 'no' to Ray's, Peter.  Just say 'no'  ;D

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Offline scott123

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Re: The Reinhart Dialog
« Reply #41 on: August 17, 2012, 04:41:01 PM »
scott123,

After reading how there were so many different Ray's in NYC, I felt I had to see what they were all about. I found a couple Ray's near my hotel and sampled a couple of their slices. I also tried a Famous Famiglia, which I suspect you would put in the same category as Ray's. I can assure you that is no fear that I will try them again :-D.

Peter

Peter, you did see the video where Jon Stewart tears Donald Trump a new one for eating at Famous Famiglia, right? I stood up and cheered while I was watching that.

Your hotel experience, unfortunately, is all too common. "Hey, it's right here, I'm in NY, it can't be THAT bad, right?"  I have to admit that I have a tinge more animosity towards Ray's than most because I lived in midtown (Hell's Kitchen) for 6 years and, out boredom/lack of food choices, ending up eating at Ray's- and ALWAYS regretted it.

Reinhart doesn't mention it in his book, but I bet any amount of money that he, too, was staying in the midtown area.

I became aware of the Prince St. location (which wasn't half bad) only after I moved out of midtown, so, far me, Ray's has always been the worst of the worst.  Now that Prince st. is shut down, I don't have to qualify my Ray statements in any way. I can go after Ray's like a dog with a bone. GRRRRR!  ;D

Online norma427

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Re: The Reinhart Dialog
« Reply #42 on: August 17, 2012, 06:11:07 PM »
Bob,

The 0.10 thickness factor value is about the value that Norma prefers, but scott103 recommends a lower value.

Peter

Peter,

To complicate things more, I do mostly use a TF of 0.10 for the formulation for market, but usually stretch my skins bigger than 16".  If you ever looked at my pizzas on the wooden peel, you will see most of my pies are larger than 16".  I really don't know what TF my NY style pizzas are sometimes.  The pies usually hang over the edges of the 16" pizza pan too.

Norma
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Online slybarman

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Re: The Reinhart Dialog
« Reply #43 on: August 17, 2012, 06:18:27 PM »
I'll throw a bit more salt into the Ray's wound.

I mentioned in the other thread that I lived and went to school in Manhattan in the '80s. School was on 77th. We had a Ray Bari a block away on 76th and so we ate there pretty regularly. I don't remember it being the best, but I don't remember it being awful either. Of course my high school age palate for such things probably wasn't too well developed either. :)

My favorite pizza at that time was a place called Ultimate Pizza - somewhere around 58th and 1st. I can't recall exactly where now. They did a terrific pie.

I have had Ray Bari once or twice over the last couple years when I am back in town to visit my parents - specifically the one on 56th and 3rd. It is quite bad. Either it got much worse since high school or my tastes grew up. Not sure which. I have not found a decent slice anywhere lately around my parents' place - 55th east side. It does seem like every time I go there anymore every store and restaurant has turned over since the last time I was there.

Edit - I wonder if this is the same ultimate pizza? I can't tell from the website, but the location is about where I remember.
http://www.simplemenu.com/menus/ultimatepizza

Edit2 - found some photos on yelp - not the same place unless they just moved location. :(
« Last Edit: August 17, 2012, 06:47:09 PM by slybarman »

Offline scott123

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Re: The Reinhart Dialog
« Reply #44 on: August 17, 2012, 06:44:34 PM »
Steve, when you were in high school, did you make any trips down to Joe's?  My time there starts around the late '80s.  That was something majestic.  Stingy with the cheese, but, honestly, a solid notch up from pizza town today. That was something else.

To this day, I have no idea how I first heard of Joe's or what drew me there.  There was a record store on Carmine (Sonic Groove), where I used to occasionally go, and, to get to the subway, I'd go past Joe's, so maybe I saw the crowd (there was always a crowd) and investigated. It's strange, it almost feels like Joe's had this kind of homing beacon and I was drawn there, like a zombie.  MUST HAVE PIZZA  ;D


Offline scott123

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Re: The Reinhart Dialog
« Reply #45 on: August 17, 2012, 06:50:34 PM »
Edit - I wonder if this is the same ultimate pizza? I can't tell from the website, but the location is about where I remember.
http://www.simplemenu.com/menus/ultimatepizza

Edit2 - found some photos on yelp - not the same place unless they just moved location. :(


Here's an article on Sliceharvester.  SH is really good on the uptown(ish) stuff.

http://www.sliceharvester.com/2010/03/ultimate-pizza-feel-power-of-ultimate.html

Online slybarman

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Re: The Reinhart Dialog
« Reply #46 on: August 17, 2012, 06:55:22 PM »
I don't recall ever going to Joes. I don't think I ever really went searching out good pizza back then either.  I think I took pizza for granted in those days and it seemed like there was a slice joint on every block and most were decent by my likely non-existent standards back then.  :-[

Offline scott123

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Re: The Reinhart Dialog
« Reply #47 on: August 17, 2012, 10:59:59 PM »
Yeah, I remember my childhood haunt like it was yesterday, but, beyond that, most of the pizza places I went to in high school are a blur. I'm still trying to piece together one of my trips to Hoboken (I'll admit, some alcohol was involved ;) ).

I just remembered something.  Down the street from my childhood place, there was a another pizzeria that was open later.  The crust was just as good, but the sauce was not- skins on the tomatoes, not really flavorful, not sweet enough.  I remember how disappointed we'd be to have to go to the crap place. Now that I think about, no matter how much I used to complain about the lesser pizzeria, if that place was open now, I'd be going out of my mind.
« Last Edit: August 18, 2012, 06:55:15 PM by scott123 »

Offline Jet_deck

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Re: The Reinhart Dialog
« Reply #48 on: August 18, 2012, 04:45:39 PM »
Scotty, I thought of a question that I can't find has been adressed in your writings.  Is they typical NY slice fresh hot, or reheated hot?  On the Chau tour, we got whole pies and had a slice from that.  I'm just wondering if a slice is reheated, what keeps the oil/cheese/sauce from making a mess on the oven floor.  Althoug not your personal favorite, New Park Pizza was the bomb in my (Non NY educated) books. :pizza:

I was considering today how cool it would be for you and Peter R. to meet and tour the NY slice scene as you know it.  It would be book worthy, no doubt.
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Offline scott123

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Re: The Reinhart Dialog
« Reply #49 on: August 18, 2012, 07:38:57 PM »
Gene, it would be really cool to hang out with Peter Reinhart, and try a few places- such as New Park and Pizza Town. He also, I think, needs to be brought up to speed on Neapolitan in NY. Keste, Motorino, Paulie Gee's.  The few West coast places Peter has showcased (such as Mozza) are all good and nice, but none of these, imo, compare to what NY has to offer.

On the topic of things Peter should be doing... He should definitely be bringing his film crew down to Craig's Garage.

Generally speaking, in this area, you'll have pizzerias (formica, full glass windows, counter with register, no waitstaff, neon) that will sell slices and you'll have what I would call pizza restaurants or taverns that will frequently only sell whole pies.  We have a place in town that has a kind of dark dingy tavern area that's connected to a bright glass-windowed pizzeria where you can order slices, but that kind of tavern pizzeria combo is pretty rare. Some of the tavern places might call themselves pizzerias, but for the most part the archetype 'pizzeria' is something along the lines of New Park- at least the front of New Park.  The back feels kind of tavern-y.

Anyway, in a typical pizzeria, there will always be slice pies, baked in advance (but, hopefully, not too far in advance). You have the option of walking in and ordering slices and having them reheated or calling ahead and having a freshly prepared pie ready when you get there.  In a very popular place, like Joe's, the turnover is such that slices don't sit.  So everyone's getting a relatively fresh slice. There's absolutely nothing worse than going into a pizzeria and finding slices that have been sitting on the counter for a few hours.

You'll always find a plain cheese slice pie and maybe a pepperoni, and almost always a thick bready, avoid at all cost, L&B antithesis Sicilian.  They may put garlic knots in the case, or strombolis or the occasional white pie or ziti pie.  It's a tough job for owners balancing between having options for the customer, but not having stuff sit around too long. I've noticed in California that they tend to really go overboard with the pre-baked slice options.  This is bad.

At far as what sells more in this area, slices or whole pies, in the burbs, whole pies are king.  

"Hi, I'd like to order a plain cheese pie"
"Alright, that'll be 15 minutes."

In the city, it's almost always slices.

Re-heating slices is generally not that messy.  When you bake a pizza, you're driving a great deal of moisture out of the dough.  That steam is integral in transferring the heat from the floor of the oven up to the cheese.  Because the cheese is getting moist heat from below, it bubbles.  When cheese bubbles, it pools/travels.  You only get this phenomenon on the first bake.  Baked crust, without the moisture from the dough in it, has a strong insulating effect, a very high R-value, so, during the re-heat, the cheese is getting almost no heat from below, so, rather than bubbling/spreading, it just browns a bit on top. The cheese can and does get very hot, napalm hot, but it generally doesn't travel off the side and onto the hearth.
« Last Edit: August 18, 2012, 07:54:10 PM by scott123 »

Offline Giggliato

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Re: The Reinhart Dialog
« Reply #50 on: August 19, 2012, 02:01:39 PM »
I need to go get a good ny style slice asap!  :pizza: :pizza:

Offline Jet_deck

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Re: The Reinhart Dialog
« Reply #51 on: August 19, 2012, 02:05:31 PM »
Scotty, pizza has an R value?  :-D :chef:

Thanks for the reply, we really need to get together again soon.
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Offline scott123

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Re: The Reinhart Dialog
« Reply #52 on: August 20, 2012, 12:48:00 AM »
Gene, you don't insulate your house with pizza? Am I really the only one that does this? ;D

Seriously, though, once you understand the different R-Values between raw and cook dough, the futility of parbaking  becomes quite evident.

Neapolitans can sort of get away with parbaking with their fried Montanara, but that's because bufala melts so easily- and because partially melted bufala (or quality fior di latte) is still quite pleasant.  But partially melted aged brick on a parbaked NY style- heavens to murgatroyd!  ;D

Offline TXCraig1

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Re: The Reinhart Dialog
« Reply #53 on: August 20, 2012, 12:51:48 AM »
Neapolitans can sort of get away with parbaking with their fried Montanara, but that's because bufala melts so easily- and because partially melted bufala (or quality fior di latte) is still quite pleasant. 

And because the oven is 1200F in the dome with rolling flames sending radiant heat across the oven...
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Offline pizzablogger

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Re: The Reinhart Dialog
« Reply #54 on: August 20, 2012, 10:32:03 AM »
Steve, when you were in high school, did you make any trips down to Joe's?  My time there starts around the late '80s.  That was something majestic.  Stingy with the cheese, but, honestly, a solid notch up from pizza town today. That was something else.

To this day, I have no idea how I first heard of Joe's or what drew me there.  There was a record store on Carmine (Sonic Groove), where I used to occasionally go, and, to get to the subway, I'd go past Joe's, so maybe I saw the crowd (there was always a crowd) and investigated. It's strange, it almost feels like Joe's had this kind of homing beacon and I was drawn there, like a zombie.  MUST HAVE PIZZA  ;D

And Joe's was in a more prominent, easier to see, location right on the corner of Carmine & Bleeker back in those days. It would have been impossible to be on Bleeker and not see it (Bleeker in the West Village where Keste, John's, etc are has always been a popular destination for various foods and sundries).

My last time at Joe's there was a tour group there and the guide was making a focused point (she mentioned it twice) about one of the "secrets" being their "500°F ovens" and "NY city water". I felt like yelling "500°F ain't hot enough!". This was a trip where I pegged a fresh pizza at nearly 6:30 on my stopwatch.

To this day Joe's still makes a higher caliber slice than many of the slice places I have been to in Manhattan. I still recommend it to people visiting Manhattan with limited time in who are interested in trying good NY-Style pizza. Again, it is certainly better than average, but my last two trips to Joe's have been "meh" outings.

With regards to us all pining about the pizzerias of our youths. Take a hard look....were they really that good? Or does sentimentality play a role in our fond memories? Very few of us were pizza critics when we were very young. I used to swear by the original Ledo's Pizza in Adelphi, Maryland, Shakey's Pizza Parlor in Langley Park, Maryland and Three Brothers Pizza in Beltway Plaza, Greenbelt (MD). But these were the places where special family trips took place, big victories in little league football or baseball were celebrated, etc. It could be that quality has slipped at these places over the years (Shakey's is no longer there), but likely fond memories clouded my judgement of how good the pizza itself really was.

It wasn't until I began taking ocassional trips to NYC in the early to mid 90's that I realized the places of my youth just were not that good. In pizza poor areas, what may be the best pizza joint in such an area may in fact be mediocre when compared to the wider world of pizza. Hence the need to try pizzas in areas of the country with an embedded pizza history.

Adam brought up such an important point.......an entire generation of pizza eaters growing up with no collective memory of what classic NY-Style (or other style) pizza is. That's a travesty. And while it may not meet everyone's idea of what the perfect NY-Style slice should be like, newer places like Best Pizza are very important. I have no clue how to make really good NY-Style pizza, but sometimes I envision opening a simple coner slice joint selling high quality NY-Style pizza (after learning how to make it) and Square pies with the big bumpers of ice cold Budweiser (ala Lenny's and other NY pizzerias of old) and a select tap or two of local beer. Blah blah blah....and blah. --K
« Last Edit: August 20, 2012, 10:35:19 AM by pizzablogger »
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Offline pizzablogger

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Re: The Reinhart Dialog
« Reply #55 on: August 20, 2012, 10:59:16 AM »
Yes, I recall you mentioning this in the history thread.  Could you expand a little on this? Was this around the time mass produced aged brick started gaining popularity? Is "synthetic mozzarella" what the fior di latte folks were calling aged brick or was it something else?

I've got enough articles strewn about that I cannot find them all quickly.

The initial article I saw was from 2/20/1958 when the Secretary of the Italian Fresh Cheese Merchants urged the NY state legistlature to strike down a bill that would allow for the "sale of an imitation process cheese under the name of mozzarella". It further mentions that there was a "Joint Legislative Committe on Imitation Food Products" and they were informed that pizza had supplanted the hot dog as the nation's favorite food. "Millions of pizza lovers have a right to be sure that they are getting genuine mozzarella and not some processed spread", mentioned G. William Calascione, representative of the Fresh Cheese Merchants Assoc. [Cheese Champion Aims Blow at Synthetic Pizza. A special to The New York Times. 2/20/1958].

The following week another article came out talking about the bill. It mentioned mozzarell had been make in America "for at least sixty years, but it was never an important cheese until the recent zooming popularity of pizza". It mentioned that a leading manufacturer of mootz, Frigo Brothers of Wisonsin, estimated their production had increased 500% in the last four or five years. This is a supporting article showing how quickly pizza had gained popularity from 1953/54 to 1958.  This article mentiones most mozzarella goes into pizzas. [Food News: Mozzarella. Booming Popularity of the Pizza Pie Puts Cheese in Limelight Overnight. June Owens, The NY Times 2/24/1958]

What the "synthetic" cheese is exactly is not specifically mentioned. Although to this day some pizzerias mention they use "all natural cheese" to distinguish their product. The brick mootz was not specifically mentioned, although the articles do cite that traditional mozzarella is typically offered in "8 ounce individual balls".

Chain pizzerias didn't really establish a heavy footprint until the late 60's I believe, so pressures for a cheaper, synthetic cheese likely did not come from chain pizzerias.
 
It could be that with pizzerias starting to open up all over the country, there was not easy access to traditionally made mozzarella in some areas. There is also the issue of frozen pizzas and ready made pizza mixes to consider. Appian Way pizza mix was already selling 350,000 packages a year by 1954. While the retail pizza shop may have had access to "real mozzarella", the local grocer may have not. Given that a "sythetic mozzarella" would allow a grocer to keep the product on the shelf longer (longer shelf life than fior-di-latte), this would be perfect to have on hand to offer customers picking up a box of pizza mix. I don't know and I am speculating, but with pizzas booming popularity in the mid to late 50's, some people were looking to capitalize by offering a cheaper product. --K
« Last Edit: August 20, 2012, 11:18:18 AM by pizzablogger »
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Offline pizzablogger

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Re: The Reinhart Dialog
« Reply #56 on: August 20, 2012, 11:14:14 AM »
I forgot to mention, but at some point (either in the time period mentioned above or shortly thereafter) I recall another article citing that the "synthetic" mozzarella was allowed for use. I need to dig it up.

Again, this is a New York specific legislative issue. So while the demand for such a product may have been there for the individual purchasing a frozen pizza or a box of pizza mix, the purchase of large lots of such cheese would be most felt by pizzerias buying large quantities of it. So, apparently, as early as the late 50's some pizzerias in New York were already using "synthetic cheese".

If the "synthetic cheese" in question is in fact lower moisture, brick mozzarella, one could argue this is not such a huge issue. But I'm not sure the term "synthetic" would be applicable to such a product. Then again, were are dealing with a group of people losing a portion of their business. And we are talking about Italians. So who ultimately knows? --K
"It's Baltimore, gentlemen, the gods will not save you." --Burrell

AimlessRyan

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Re: The Reinhart Dialog
« Reply #57 on: August 20, 2012, 11:34:20 AM »
Maybe this has something to do with the predominance of provolone here in the midwest. I'm thinking the oldest pizza joints around here (central Ohio) date back to the 1950s.

Offline pizzaboyfan

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Re: The Reinhart Dialog
« Reply #58 on: August 20, 2012, 11:57:28 AM »
 New Yorkers are coming in Philadelphia, in droves to see the Barnes Foundation Collection.

http://www.barnesfoundation.org

In the near future, they might be coming for a taste of what was once was...NY pizza created by the old Pizza masters.

You might think of Philadelphia as the Galapagos Island of NY pizza, where it stopped evolving and severed ties with the outside world.
Lots of good old style pie houses here  run by old school Italians and their families ( many from N.Y.) ,and there is a strong heritage of great street food.

The 1.00 slices wouldn't make it here. Sbarro...no thanks.
The fact is, when it comes to street food, New Yorkers are accepting of some really low quality garba'gge ( not to be confused with garbage).
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AimlessRyan

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Re: The Reinhart Dialog
« Reply #59 on: August 20, 2012, 12:01:53 PM »
...really low quality garba'gge ( not to be confused with garbage).

Because it's French?