Author Topic: How I make my NP dough  (Read 78289 times)

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Offline Kale dog

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Re: How I make my NP dough
« Reply #100 on: January 18, 2014, 11:46:17 PM »
what is ischia culture sounds confusing, can i use just yeast?
what are the benefits to fermenting at 65'F etc...  ??? ??? ???
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Offline TXCraig1

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Re: How I make my NP dough
« Reply #101 on: January 19, 2014, 08:54:42 AM »
what is ischia culture sounds confusing, can i use just yeast?
what are the benefits to fermenting at 65'F etc...  ??? ??? ???

Ischia is a SD culture. You can swap in most anyu SD culture with probably only minor tweaks.

Yes, you can use yeast, but you will have to adapt the quantity based on the typed used. Here is where to start: http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,26831.msg285982.html#msg285982

Yeast and bacteria's biological processes change with the temperature. I've found that the best flavors are developed in a 64+/- 2F window.
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Offline mitchjg

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Re: How I make my NP dough
« Reply #102 on: January 26, 2014, 04:25:51 PM »
Hi Craig:

I have a couple of questions about water and dough temperatures and salt. 

I see that you start with pretty cold water, 40 -45 degrees.  I do not - I use cold water from the filter tap - about 60 degrees but it varies.

Do you think it makes a difference and, if so, what might the difference be?

I generally do a 24 - 48 hour Ischia ferment.  The first X hours are at around 62 and the last 4 hours are at around 72.  My guess is that it did not matter much since the final dough temperature, maybe 78 degrees (last time I checked), does not need to cool down that much to get to 62. 

But, now I wonder.  I have noticed that my more recent doughs have a lot more rise to them.  There are two things that changed.  One is that I started using a wine fridge instead of my basement for the cool temperature fermentation - so a lot more exact control.  Second, for no particular reason, I cut the salt back from 2.8% to 2.6%.

Some of yesterday's doughs, a couple of hours into cooking -so after 6 hours at 72 - were super-gassy.  They looked like they had doubled again, were even more extensible, and maybe did not cook as nicely.  So, I started pondering why this might be - lower salt level giving me a more narrow window?  Too high a finished dough temperature? (do you know yours?), etc. 

I would appreciate any thoughts you had on this.

Thanks,
Mitch
Mitch

Offline TXCraig1

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Re: How I make my NP dough
« Reply #103 on: January 28, 2014, 12:47:08 AM »
I use the cold water so that the dough comes out right at the proof temp of 65F +/- and does not have to otherwise take several hours to get there which would probably kick-start/accelerate the process.

I wouldn't think that going from 2.8% - 2.6% would make that kind of difference. I've never gone under 2.8% on my NP, but I've gone a lot less with other styles using the same model and all worked as expected. My guess it it has something to do with your temperature or culture activity.

CL
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Offline PizzaAlaJoey

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Re: How I make my NP dough
« Reply #104 on: February 10, 2014, 04:25:36 PM »
I don't know what I did differently, but my dough came out incredibly tough and dry. I believe your recipe here called for 61% hydration with 00 flour? Perhaps I put too much sourdough starter in it because i can barely shape them into balls.

Offline TXCraig1

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Re: How I make my NP dough
« Reply #105 on: February 10, 2014, 10:47:21 PM »
I don't know what I did differently, but my dough came out incredibly tough and dry. I believe your recipe here called for 61% hydration with 00 flour? Perhaps I put too much sourdough starter in it because i can barely shape them into balls.

My starter is wetter than my dough, so that wouldn't make my dough too dry. In any case, it would take many multiples of the amount I use to swing the needle in any direction. Even at 59%HR, my dough is easy to work. Perhaps you measured something wrong? I know I've done it. I'd always suggest trying something twice before giving up if you know it is supposed to work - see if you get similar results.

Also, all 00 is not the same - far from it. You should not expect similar results with any flour other than Caputo Pizzeria or GM Neapolitan. Those are the only two I've tested with this method that give these results. 5Stagioni Neapolitan does not for sure.  There may be others that do, but I've not tried them.
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Offline PizzaAlaJoey

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Re: How I make my NP dough
« Reply #106 on: February 11, 2014, 11:34:35 AM »
I think I know what I did wrong. I probably didn't activate my sourdough properly this time. The entire time I've been doing sourdough its been sort of a walk through the dark. I figured the best way is to write down a log of everything. Anyway two doughballs sat outside the fridge in tupperware last night and they're almost a tad cold today and have rise a bit but not much really. It was cold last night but probably 68 degrees in the kitchen. They are soft now and not literally hard as clay anymore. That has to be what happened. Seems like they might work ok at best. I'm going to have to order some Caputo online in a 5 lb bag because I used up my entire little bag of San Felice doing this dough. There aren't many places to buy it here. Let me know if you think that sounds correct about the starter.

Offline TXCraig1

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Re: How I make my NP dough
« Reply #107 on: February 11, 2014, 10:52:23 PM »
I think I know what I did wrong. I probably didn't activate my sourdough properly this time. The entire time I've been doing sourdough its been sort of a walk through the dark. I figured the best way is to write down a log of everything. Anyway two doughballs sat outside the fridge in tupperware last night and they're almost a tad cold today and have rise a bit but not much really. It was cold last night but probably 68 degrees in the kitchen. They are soft now and not literally hard as clay anymore. That has to be what happened. Seems like they might work ok at best. I'm going to have to order some Caputo online in a 5 lb bag because I used up my entire little bag of San Felice doing this dough. There aren't many places to buy it here. Let me know if you think that sounds correct about the starter.

I don't know. There are so many variables. Keeping a log is the best way to learn what does what. I kept a log of everything I did for years. I only stopped when my changes became so small that there was really not much difference in what I was writing down.
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Offline flyhigh123

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Re: How I make my NP dough
« Reply #108 on: March 20, 2014, 07:53:48 PM »
reading the basics, the fermentation part, you mentioned 65 degrees, so i assume this is done in your cooler? Do people ferment in the refrigerator? how about open air?

also, for yeast, it says :1.3% Ischia Culture

How do I use ADY and what would the % be if i used ADY? Someone said to hydrate it first and let it poof... how much water to add ? 1:1? and would the % be before or after hydration?
« Last Edit: March 20, 2014, 08:00:20 PM by flyhigh123 »


Offline flyhigh123

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Re: How I make my NP dough
« Reply #109 on: March 20, 2014, 08:13:41 PM »
Also, i took a look at your spreadsheet from google docs. I don;t know if anyone made changes to it, so i thought i would post it here to confirm if what you have is correct:

   Size      Q   Waste   Dough   
1   275      6   2%            1683   
               
               % of Water
1   Flour      100.00%   1009   g   160.0%
4   Water   62.50%   631   g       100.0%
   Salt           3.00%    30   g   4.8%
   Yeast   1.30%   13.1   g   2.1%
         1683   g   
               
         1649.34      



BTW, what is the Q? I'm assuming that's the quantity of dough balls, so each dough ball is 275g x6 with 2% loss= 1683

Offline TXCraig1

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Re: How I make my NP dough
« Reply #110 on: March 20, 2014, 09:15:24 PM »
Yes, Q is quantity. I thought the formulas were locked down so they couldn't be changed. Is that not the case?
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Offline flyhigh123

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Re: How I make my NP dough
« Reply #111 on: March 21, 2014, 12:42:44 AM »
Yes, Q is quantity. I thought the formulas were locked down so they couldn't be changed. Is that not the case?

when i clicked on your link, the yeast said .2% not 1.3%... so i changed it as seen in my post above.

also any thoughts above using ady instead of the sb culture? How do i match the quantity? Is ADY also 1.3%?

Offline TXCraig1

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Re: How I make my NP dough
« Reply #112 on: March 21, 2014, 09:17:42 PM »
when i clicked on your link, the yeast said .2% not 1.3%... so i changed it as seen in my post above.

also any thoughts above using ady instead of the sb culture? How do i match the quantity? Is ADY also 1.3%?

The formulas should be locked down not the the yellow cells where you input the parameters. The purpose of the spreadsheet is simply to be a convenient way to calculate formula quantities. It is not designed to tell you what you should be doing. The only numbers in the yellow cells you should trust is the ones you personally enter into them.

This chart will give you a good starting point to ADY given your desired fermentation time and temperature. Instruction are in the first post of the thread.
http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=26831.msg285982#msg285982
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Offline flyhigh123

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Re: How I make my NP dough
« Reply #113 on: March 31, 2014, 10:46:44 PM »
hi craig,

i made a few doughs... close, but not right. my dough didnt really rise during the fermentation period. When i tried to remove the dough from the oiled bowls, they still clung to the bottom. Another note i see is that the dough feels too mushy as i am making the 12 inch dough. Not extensible and would rip easily.

should i try to reduce the water? Also, my ADY is about a year old. Will be buying some new ADY. Any other suggestions?

Do you by any chance have a video of your dough and how it reacts? For example, picking it up and watching the gravity pull the dough, etc.

Thanks

Offline TXCraig1

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Re: How I make my NP dough
« Reply #114 on: March 31, 2014, 10:55:04 PM »
hi craig,

i made a few doughs... close, but not right. my dough didnt really rise during the fermentation period. When i tried to remove the dough from the oiled bowls, they still clung to the bottom. Another note i see is that the dough feels too mushy as i am making the 12 inch dough. Not extensible and would rip easily.

should i try to reduce the water? Also, my ADY is about a year old. Will be buying some new ADY. Any other suggestions?

Do you by any chance have a video of your dough and how it reacts? For example, picking it up and watching the gravity pull the dough, etc.

Thanks

What sort of flour are you using and how old is it? How do you store it?

How much ADY did you use? What temp did you ferment at and for how long?

I let the dough fall out of the bowl, and it takes a few seconds to pull free from the bottom. I don't pull on it. I just turn it over and let it fall into some flour.

I don't have a video, but I can tell you that it is VERY soft yet it is still strong. It takes no effort at all to open yet you can easily pull it thin enough to see through. I have to be careful not to bee too aggressive when opening, or it will get too thin in the center of the pie. I open it up to about 11" and then after I slide the peel under it, I pull it open to the full 13". This way, the last couple inches come from the cornice as opposed to the middle.

Cutting the portion of time in balls down will make it both more elastic and easier to come out of the bowl. I wouldn't suggest less than 8 hours in balls. If you are doing 24, I'd recommend trying 12 hours and then 10 and see what difference it makes and if you like it better.

Try 60% hydration.
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Offline flyhigh123

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Re: How I make my NP dough
« Reply #115 on: April 01, 2014, 04:05:46 AM »
I used 00 antimo 2.2lb red bag, .25% yeast, 24 hour at 42f and then 5 hours a room temp 62.5% water.

My ady needs to be fresher. One pie came out decent but needs work. I might make my pie 300g instead of 275.

I used my blackstone, 750f on lower stone and then fire at 75%.


I think I did notice is one of the doughs, I messed it up when pressing it out. So I reballed the dough. Once I did that, the dough tightened up and became too hard to work with. Also it no longer was light and springy, just dense.
« Last Edit: April 01, 2014, 02:53:47 PM by flyhigh123 »

Offline dbarneschi

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Re: How I make my NP dough
« Reply #116 on: April 22, 2014, 09:10:00 AM »
Regarding a "fully active" starter: Does this mean that I should take my Ischia starter out of the refrigerator, feed it, let it sit on the kitchen counter until it puffs up to its highest level and then use it? Just curious.


Offline anverc

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Re: How I make my NP dough
« Reply #117 on: April 22, 2014, 10:29:25 AM »
Regarding a "fully active" starter: Does this mean that I should take my Ischia starter out of the refrigerator, feed it, let it sit on the kitchen counter until it puffs up to its highest level and then use it? Just curious.

fully active means you can double volume in just a few hours after feeding.  sometimes this means one feeding out of the refrigerator, sometimes it takes more.
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Offline dbarneschi

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Re: How I make my NP dough
« Reply #118 on: April 22, 2014, 10:37:18 AM »
fully active means you can double volume in just a few hours after feeding.  sometimes this means one feeding out of the refrigerator, sometimes it takes more.
Gotcha. Will experiment with this. Thanks!

Offline dmwierz45

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Re: How I make my NP dough
« Reply #119 on: April 29, 2014, 02:03:57 PM »
Guys, I'm "drinking from a fire hose" here, trying to read as much as I can that will allow me to try my first Caputo 00 dough. I see a lot of reference to keeping the dough at 65F…that's not a temperature any normal home can reach or maintain easily. If I keep the dough in the refrigerator, it's too cold. Keeping it on the counter is closer to 70 F…Ideas?

Also, the amount of starter seems REALLY small…for two dough balls (280g each) it's looks like barely a teaspoon full. I have an active starter that I use frequently to bake bread, but can't imagine a teaspoon of the stuff will do much leavening. What am I missing?

Thanks,
Dennis
« Last Edit: April 29, 2014, 02:09:48 PM by dmwierz45 »

Offline tinroofrusted

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Re: How I make my NP dough
« Reply #120 on: April 29, 2014, 02:37:03 PM »
Guys, I'm "drinking from a fire hose" here, trying to read as much as I can that will allow me to try my first Caputo 00 dough. I see a lot of reference to keeping the dough at 65F…that's not a temperature any normal home can reach or maintain easily. If I keep the dough in the refrigerator, it's too cold. Keeping it on the counter is closer to 70 F…Ideas?

Also, the amount of starter seems REALLY small…for two dough balls (280g each) it's looks like barely a teaspoon full. I have an active starter that I use frequently to bake bread, but can't imagine a teaspoon of the stuff will do much leavening. What am I missing?

Have a look here:  http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,14356.0.html

Offline anverc

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Re: How I make my NP dough
« Reply #121 on: April 29, 2014, 02:46:37 PM »
Also, the amount of starter seems REALLY small…for two dough balls (280g each) it's looks like barely a teaspoon full. I have an active starter that I use frequently to bake bread, but can't imagine a teaspoon of the stuff will do much leavening. What am I missing?

that's right.  that tiny amount of starter is a mass of flour, water, and lots of really active yeast.  that yeast will colonize and start consuming your doughball as soon as you start mixing it, and the population explodes exponentially - one yeast will divide to become two, then the next division you've got four, then the next eight, etc.  The longer you wait the faster the population grows and the more mouths there are to feed.  If you're going to allow it to sit at 65F for 48 hours (for instance), that's a pretty good amount of time for eating and multiplying! if you start with too many mouths to begin with, you're going to run out of food really fast.  Think about how fast your starter reacts once you've fed it for the last time (the feeding that gets it super active), it doubles volume in just a couple of hours, right?  The small amount you use, and the exponential growth is also why you don't see a lot of activity after the first 24 hours but as you approach the end it takes off.  Go check out all the work txcraig1 has been doing: http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=22649.0  You can use his data and charts (or my app, or the google spreadsheet in that thread) to predict how much starter you need, or how much time you need to get the job done.
« Last Edit: April 29, 2014, 02:52:22 PM by anverc »
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Offline flyhigh123

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Re: How I make my NP dough
« Reply #122 on: April 29, 2014, 03:08:48 PM »
Hey Craig,

I just wanted to let you know that your dough recipe has turned out really great! It's pretty much amazing. I need to post some pics, but the chew on the crust is amazing with the crisp bottom....

I have bumped up the dough weight to around 310. I feel that the pizza is a little too thin for my taste. I'm also going to try 330 as well.

One question, how much sauce does the pizza normally take, from a real pizzeria? I think i'm a bit sauce heavy....

Offline TXCraig1

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Re: How I make my NP dough
« Reply #123 on: April 29, 2014, 10:38:15 PM »
Also, the amount of starter seems REALLY small…for two dough balls (280g each) it's looks like barely a teaspoon full. I have an active starter that I use frequently to bake bread, but can't imagine a teaspoon of the stuff will do much leavening. What am I missing?

Time.
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Offline TXCraig1

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Re: How I make my NP dough
« Reply #124 on: April 29, 2014, 10:41:26 PM »
Hey Craig,

I just wanted to let you know that your dough recipe has turned out really great! It's pretty much amazing. I need to post some pics, but the chew on the crust is amazing with the crisp bottom....

I have bumped up the dough weight to around 310. I feel that the pizza is a little too thin for my taste. I'm also going to try 330 as well.

One question, how much sauce does the pizza normally take, from a real pizzeria? I think i'm a bit sauce heavy....

I'm glad it worked well for you. Thanks for letting me know. I've never measured how much sauce I use. It's not a lot. 1/4 -1/3 cup maybe?
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