Author Topic: How I make my NP dough  (Read 53202 times)

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Offline TXCraig1

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Re: How I make my NP dough
« Reply #140 on: August 01, 2014, 12:37:17 AM »
I was giving Craig's recipe a try twice lately and it definitely didn't come out as expected. I hope some of the experts here can help me find out what's wrong.

First of all, I use modified small pizza oven (as in G3 Ferrari thread). It's not WFO, so obviously the results will differ, but it comes quite close.

Second thing is, I'm not sure if my culture is actually Ischia - it took me quite a while to activate it and I'm afraid by the time it got active, it may as well have been completely other culture which just happen to move into the jar.

My 2 tries went as follows:

1. I followed the recipe quite closely, I guess the only difference in handling the dough is that I haven't done "slap and fold", but rather "stretch and fold". 24h in bulk at 65F, then about 14h in balls at 65F and last 10h or so in 78F. I used Caputo Chef's flour (red bag). The difference in proportions was 2 times more sourdough (about 3%), I actually put too much by accident and just left it like that. The dough was ok, but it wasn't very soft and it wasn't super easy to open - I don't have too many other recipes to compare, but among the other things I tried 3 days dough fermenting in a fridge with IDY and most of the time it didn't need too much work to open it.

2. Second try was really similar, but this time I put 1.3% of sourdough and it came out much worse. It was actually a bit similar when opening, but it didn't rise properly in the oven and the crust was really chewy and had a bad structure.

When going through the forum before the first try I somehow missed the method of judging rise level by looking at bubbles on the bottom of the container, so I don't have any photos, but I took a picture of the second try. I must also say that at this point it's really hard for me to tell how much the dough rose, I literally have no idea, especially when the ball expands and looses its' shape. As you may see on the photos,there's almost no activity there, but I still wanted it to give it a go, for the sake of experimenting and you can see the poor result on the last photo.

I'm not sure what's the cause, which is why I would like to confirm my assumptions, but my theory is: my sourdough is not strong enough and the dough haven't risen enough. On the first try I doubled the sourdough amount by accident and it turned out better than the next one which kind of confirms that. I will try one more batch with much more sourdough, probably about 5%, but if anyone has an idea on what could be some other causes of such an effect, it would be great to hear.

Your dough definately looks underfermented. There are all sorts of things that could have caused this. You will need to experiment.

Lately I've been using 1.9% yeast. That's probably a tiny bit high. 1.7% is probably about right for me.
Pizza is not bread.


Offline Pizza-Dude

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Re: How I make my NP dough
« Reply #141 on: August 01, 2014, 06:20:07 AM »
Is it possible to do this with the kitchenaid instead of kneading by hand? I dont want to keep cleaning, washing, etc. my counters :(

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: How I make my NP dough
« Reply #142 on: August 01, 2014, 07:25:19 AM »
What Craig says in Reply 138 is especially true of flour and, to a lesser degree, water (in the sense that the variations in flour are typically greater than for water in my experience). What he says is also true of other ingredients, since one might measure out, say, a teaspoon of a particular ingredient, using a level teaspoon, a rounded teaspoon or a scant teaspoon. Each will produce a different result. If I need to convert a given volume of an ingredient to a weight, I will usually weigh a level teaspoon of the ingredient five times and take the average. In the various dough calculating tools on the forum, there are no conversions of flour, water or cake yeast to volume measurements. The rest of the conversions are based on government data, or conversions based on data found on labels, or weighings such as mentioned above. In some cases, as where there are many brands of an ingredient, I have sometimes taken the average of the multiple brands to use as conversion factors in the dough calculating tools.

Peter

Offline norma427

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Re: How I make my NP dough
« Reply #143 on: August 01, 2014, 08:14:03 AM »
Is it possible to do this with the kitchenaid instead of kneading by hand? I dont want to keep cleaning, washing, etc. my counters :(

Pizza-Dude,

Craig does use a Kitchen Aid to mix his dough. 

Norma
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Offline TXCraig1

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Re: How I make my NP dough
« Reply #144 on: August 01, 2014, 10:11:02 AM »
What Craig says in Reply 138 is especially true of flour and, to a lesser degree, water (in the sense that the variations in flour are typically greater than for water in my experience). What he says is also true of other ingredients, since one might measure out, say, a teaspoon of a particular ingredient, using a level teaspoon, a rounded teaspoon or a scant teaspoon. Each will produce a different result. If I need to convert a given volume of an ingredient to a weight, I will usually weigh a level teaspoon of the ingredient five times and take the average. In the various dough calculating tools on the forum, there are no conversions of flour, water or cake yeast to volume measurements. The rest of the conversions are based on government data, or conversions based on data found on labels, or weighings such as mentioned above. In some cases, as where there are many brands of an ingredient, I have sometimes taken the average of the multiple brands to use as conversion factors in the dough calculating tools.

Peter

Everything Peter writes is correct. I made my statement very broad to express my view on the importance of using weight measurements. I'd also note that the more one scales a recipe down, the more important it becomes as small errors represent a larger fraction of the whole.
Pizza is not bread.

Offline TXCraig1

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Re: How I make my NP dough
« Reply #145 on: August 01, 2014, 10:16:02 AM »
Pizza-Dude,

Craig does use a Kitchen Aid to mix his dough. 

Norma

My KA is an old K5SS. My normal batch is 1.7kg of flour, but that is probably a bit more than the mixer was designed to handle and takes a bit of technique. It doesn't work well with small amounts of dough at all.
Pizza is not bread.

Offline Pizza-Dude

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Re: How I make my NP dough
« Reply #146 on: August 02, 2014, 05:18:56 PM »
Pizza-Dude,

Craig does use a Kitchen Aid to mix his dough. 

Norma

Norma--

I saw that but my understanding is that he then takes the dough out of the mixer and does the smack-and-fold on the counter? I'd prefer to do it "all in the mixer" if possible?

Offline TXCraig1

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Re: How I make my NP dough
« Reply #147 on: August 02, 2014, 05:26:10 PM »
I can't get the smoothness I want in the KA. I basically use it to get everything homogeneous.
Pizza is not bread.

Offline vandev

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Re: How I make my NP dough
« Reply #148 on: August 02, 2014, 05:43:24 PM »
Norma--

I saw that but my understanding is that he then takes the dough out of the mixer and does the smack-and-fold on the counter? I'd prefer to do it "all in the mixer" if possible?

If you really want to start to figure out your dough you will need to get your hands into it. Texture, feel and elasticity are all things you can't tell by looking in a mixer. The Strech and fold..or kneed.....Not smack and fold..... will do 2 important things. One of them is two see how your dough feels. two is to get air worked in for good gluten development.  If you can tear off a small piece and stretch it until it is translucent...you are on the right track...You got to get jiggy with it.. ;)

Chris
« Last Edit: August 02, 2014, 06:11:32 PM by vandev »

Offline TXCraig1

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Re: How I make my NP dough
« Reply #149 on: August 02, 2014, 05:45:57 PM »
I would probably describe what I do as more of a "stretchy knead."

The only time I do a true stretch-and-fold is when I mix the dough completely by hand. It is an indispensable tool in that regard.
Pizza is not bread.


Offline vandev

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Re: How I make my NP dough
« Reply #150 on: August 02, 2014, 06:09:34 PM »
I would probably describe what I do as more of a "stretchy knead."

The only time I do a true stretch-and-fold is when I mix the dough completely by hand. It is an indispensable tool in that regard.

You are correct.. Thats what i meant ...  a cross between the two... i think my avatar is getting me off track... :-D Smack and fold... :angel:
« Last Edit: August 02, 2014, 06:17:07 PM by vandev »

hotdough

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Re: How I make my NP dough
« Reply #151 on: August 12, 2014, 01:42:23 PM »
I was giving Craig's recipe a try twice lately and it definitely didn't come out as expected. I hope some of the experts here can help me find out what's wrong.

First of all, I use modified small pizza oven (as in G3 Ferrari thread). It's not WFO, so obviously the results will differ, but it comes quite close.

Second thing is, I'm not sure if my culture is actually Ischia - it took me quite a while to activate it and I'm afraid by the time it got active, it may as well have been completely other culture which just happen to move into the jar.

My 2 tries went as follows:

1. I followed the recipe quite closely, I guess the only difference in handling the dough is that I haven't done "slap and fold", but rather "stretch and fold". 24h in bulk at 65F, then about 14h in balls at 65F and last 10h or so in 78F. I used Caputo Chef's flour (red bag). The difference in proportions was 2 times more sourdough (about 3%), I actually put too much by accident and just left it like that. The dough was ok, but it wasn't very soft and it wasn't super easy to open - I don't have too many other recipes to compare, but among the other things I tried 3 days dough fermenting in a fridge with IDY and most of the time it didn't need too much work to open it.

2. Second try was really similar, but this time I put 1.3% of sourdough and it came out much worse. It was actually a bit similar when opening, but it didn't rise properly in the oven and the crust was really chewy and had a bad structure.

When going through the forum before the first try I somehow missed the method of judging rise level by looking at bubbles on the bottom of the container, so I don't have any photos, but I took a picture of the second try. I must also say that at this point it's really hard for me to tell how much the dough rose, I literally have no idea, especially when the ball expands and looses its' shape. As you may see on the photos,there's almost no activity there, but I still wanted it to give it a go, for the sake of experimenting and you can see the poor result on the last photo.

I'm not sure what's the cause, which is why I would like to confirm my assumptions, but my theory is: my sourdough is not strong enough and the dough haven't risen enough. On the first try I doubled the sourdough amount by accident and it turned out better than the next one which kind of confirms that. I will try one more batch with much more sourdough, probably about 5%, but if anyone has an idea on what could be some other causes of such an effect, it would be great to hear.

Chef's flour is not the same as Caputo pizzeria flour. Mostly grano tenero and less manitoba. Not the flour for long fermentation. Results would be like you experience. Maybe also proteolysis occurred. . .?. Starters are also more acidic and that isn't great for the Chefs for long bulk fermentation. Trying mixing with some bread flour maybe 30%. Its not Neapolitan correct but for a home oven under 700 you could also try a bit of malt syrup maybe some diastatic as well both for browning. I would only use ADY or IDY or CY with the Chefs. Also Hydration should be lower because this flour alone can't handle it without some manitoba, i.e. hard wheat. If I were using Chefs it would be 57% 59% tops otherwise difficult to work. Hope that helps.

Offline TXCraig1

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Re: How I make my NP dough
« Reply #152 on: August 12, 2014, 01:59:34 PM »
you could also try a bit of malt syrup maybe some diastatic as well both for browning.

 :-X  I think I will need a barf bag after reading that.
Pizza is not bread.

hotdough

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Re: How I make my NP dough
« Reply #153 on: August 12, 2014, 02:02:33 PM »
:-X  I think I will need a barf bag after reading that.

I'm a professional baker with 50 years experience. Make sure you use the large size barf bag. ;D

scott123

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Re: How I make my NP dough
« Reply #154 on: August 12, 2014, 02:24:56 PM »
:-X  I think I will need a barf bag after reading that.

By adding diastatic malt, he's just NYifying the caputo for cooler home ovens. Nothing wrong with that  ;D Bread flour would achieve the same end and be far cheaper, though.

Offline TXCraig1

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Re: How I make my NP dough
« Reply #155 on: August 12, 2014, 02:26:21 PM »
I'm a professional baker with 50 years experience. Make sure you use the large size barf bag. ;D

I haven't been walking the planet for 50 years yet, however I have managed to figure out that pizza is not bread.
Pizza is not bread.

Offline TXCraig1

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Re: How I make my NP dough
« Reply #156 on: August 12, 2014, 02:26:42 PM »
By adding diastatic malt, he's just NYifying the caputo for cooler home ovens. Nothing wrong with that  ;D Bread flour would achieve the same end and be far cheaper, though.

In this thread, it's  :-X
Pizza is not bread.

scott123

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Re: How I make my NP dough
« Reply #157 on: August 12, 2014, 02:35:34 PM »
In this thread, it's  :-X

It's off topic, absolutely, but NY style pizza is vomit inducing?

Offline TXCraig1

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Re: How I make my NP dough
« Reply #158 on: August 12, 2014, 03:44:28 PM »
It's off topic, absolutely, but NY style pizza is vomit inducing?

I didn't say that.
Pizza is not bread.

scott123

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Re: How I make my NP dough
« Reply #159 on: August 12, 2014, 03:50:39 PM »
Caputo + diastatic malt = NY style flour. Baked in a typical home oven, at typical home oven temps, it's NY style pizza. Why would this merit a barf bag?