Author Topic: How I make my NP dough  (Read 81874 times)

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Offline lifevicarious

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Re: How I make my NP dough
« Reply #125 on: May 13, 2014, 05:22:58 PM »
Hey Craig,

Made a few pizzas in my life, but a bit removed, and haven't really used Caputo 00 before. Anyway, recently got the BS and now trying to follow your recipe by the letter to make my dough. My problem is that after mixing in a KA, kneading, and four rounds of folding, the dough is still in the "rough" stage. Do I simply keep folding / resting until it gets to the smooth stage?

Thanks in advance!

Christian


Offline lifevicarious

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Re: How I make my NP dough
« Reply #126 on: May 13, 2014, 05:51:49 PM »
Well I guess I answered my own question. I just kept up with periods of folding followed by periods of rest, and after a few rounds, i finally achieved the smooth texture I was looking for. We'll see how they end up in 48 hours.

Offline TXCraig1

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Re: How I make my NP dough
« Reply #127 on: May 13, 2014, 10:48:30 PM »
Well I guess I answered my own question. I just kept up with periods of folding followed by periods of rest, and after a few rounds, i finally achieved the smooth texture I was looking for. We'll see how they end up in 48 hours.

Very good. Glad to hear it. I usually employ 2-3 rests and to get beautiful, smooth dough.
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Offline dbarneschi

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Re: How I make my NP dough
« Reply #128 on: June 01, 2014, 11:41:08 PM »
Hi Craig,

I'm going to be making 24 dough balls for a pizza party this Saturday. I love your dough recipe and was wondering what mods I should make to it to scale it up effectively. For example, I don't think I can use the "slap and fold" technique on a lump of dough that contains 24 dough balls. Do I need to do 3 or 4 separate batches? Also, I should note that I don't have a dough mixer.

Thanks!
Damian

Offline TXCraig1

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Re: How I make my NP dough
« Reply #129 on: June 02, 2014, 08:28:50 AM »
Hi Craig,

I'm going to be making 24 dough balls for a pizza party this Saturday. I love your dough recipe and was wondering what mods I should make to it to scale it up effectively. For example, I don't think I can use the "slap and fold" technique on a lump of dough that contains 24 dough balls. Do I need to do 3 or 4 separate batches? Also, I should note that I don't have a dough mixer.

Thanks!
Damian

I don't see a problem making that much dough at one time if you have a large enough bowl. If you're worried about it, make 2 batches. I do 12 ball batches regularly.
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Offline Michael130207

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Re: How I make my NP dough
« Reply #130 on: June 02, 2014, 01:00:50 PM »
Hi Craig,

I'm going to be making 24 dough balls for a pizza party this Saturday. I love your dough recipe and was wondering what mods I should make to it to scale it up effectively. For example, I don't think I can use the "slap and fold" technique on a lump of dough that contains 24 dough balls. Do I need to do 3 or 4 separate batches? Also, I should note that I don't have a dough mixer.

Thanks!
Damian

I discovered Ken Forkish's book on the forum and since then my mixer has been gathering dust. This past weekend I hand mixed a 5 kg batch using the stretch and fold technique for the first time. It was surprisingly easy. Using a Cambro 12 qt. container purchased on Amazon, I mixed, folded, and bulk rose the dough.  Making the dough in one batch and using one container was easier, quicker, and more consistent for me than running multiple batches through my 5 quart mixer.

Love that container, lots of good uses for it!
Michael

Offline Totti

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Re: How I make my NP dough
« Reply #131 on: June 05, 2014, 01:51:19 AM »
FWIW, I had a chat to a good friend of Gino Sorbillo's today. I know Craig as come under question on occasion for his mixing of culture into salted brine and not adding flour before hand. This guy said its a well kept secret among Napoletani that they don't generally share, but they will almost always add their mother dough to salted brine, stirring it in and adding flour within a minute.. Even though they let on like you're not supposed to do that, its part of their secret.

He also said most of them use cultures, even if their "recipe" uses Lievito di Birra..

I know Craig doesn't need any qualification to his methods, but its good to have them endorsed by a Naples Pizza Local.

This bloke moved from the Spanish Quarter of Naples and went on to make pizza in Auckland for 10 years before moving to Melbourne.

Offline kiwipete

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Re: How I make my NP dough
« Reply #132 on: June 05, 2014, 02:55:47 AM »
This bloke moved from the Spanish Quarter of Naples and went on to make pizza in Auckland for 10 years before moving to Melbourne.

Being an Aucklander myself, are you able to say where he worked in Auckland? Or what his name is?

Offline Totti

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Re: How I make my NP dough
« Reply #133 on: June 05, 2014, 03:35:04 AM »
Being an Aucklander myself, are you able to say where he worked in Auckland? Or what his name is?

His name is Alessandro, I believe his pizza restaurant was called That's Amore? I could be wrong.


Offline drogus

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Re: How I make my NP dough
« Reply #134 on: July 27, 2014, 04:31:02 PM »
I was giving Craig's recipe a try twice lately and it definitely didn't come out as expected. I hope some of the experts here can help me find out what's wrong.

First of all, I use modified small pizza oven (as in G3 Ferrari thread). It's not WFO, so obviously the results will differ, but it comes quite close.

Second thing is, I'm not sure if my culture is actually Ischia - it took me quite a while to activate it and I'm afraid by the time it got active, it may as well have been completely other culture which just happen to move into the jar.

My 2 tries went as follows:

1. I followed the recipe quite closely, I guess the only difference in handling the dough is that I haven't done "slap and fold", but rather "stretch and fold". 24h in bulk at 65F, then about 14h in balls at 65F and last 10h or so in 78F. I used Caputo Chef's flour (red bag). The difference in proportions was 2 times more sourdough (about 3%), I actually put too much by accident and just left it like that. The dough was ok, but it wasn't very soft and it wasn't super easy to open - I don't have too many other recipes to compare, but among the other things I tried 3 days dough fermenting in a fridge with IDY and most of the time it didn't need too much work to open it.

2. Second try was really similar, but this time I put 1.3% of sourdough and it came out much worse. It was actually a bit similar when opening, but it didn't rise properly in the oven and the crust was really chewy and had a bad structure.

When going through the forum before the first try I somehow missed the method of judging rise level by looking at bubbles on the bottom of the container, so I don't have any photos, but I took a picture of the second try. I must also say that at this point it's really hard for me to tell how much the dough rose, I literally have no idea, especially when the ball expands and looses its' shape. As you may see on the photos,there's almost no activity there, but I still wanted it to give it a go, for the sake of experimenting and you can see the poor result on the last photo.

I'm not sure what's the cause, which is why I would like to confirm my assumptions, but my theory is: my sourdough is not strong enough and the dough haven't risen enough. On the first try I doubled the sourdough amount by accident and it turned out better than the next one which kind of confirms that. I will try one more batch with much more sourdough, probably about 5%, but if anyone has an idea on what could be some other causes of such an effect, it would be great to hear.

Offline vandev

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Re: How I make my NP dough
« Reply #135 on: July 27, 2014, 06:25:10 PM »
I was giving Craig's recipe a try twice lately and it definitely didn't come out as expected. I hope some of the experts here can help me find out what's wrong.

First of all, I use modified small pizza oven (as in G3 Ferrari thread). It's not WFO, so obviously the results will differ, but it comes quite close.

Second thing is, I'm not sure if my culture is actually Ischia - it took me quite a while to activate it and I'm afraid by the time it got active, it may as well have been completely other culture which just happen to move into the jar.

My 2 tries went as follows:

1. I followed the recipe quite closely, I guess the only difference in handling the dough is that I haven't done "slap and fold", but rather "stretch and fold". 24h in bulk at 65F, then about 14h in balls at 65F and last 10h or so in 78F. I used Caputo Chef's flour (red bag). The difference in proportions was 2 times more sourdough (about 3%), I actually put too much by accident and just left it like that. The dough was ok, but it wasn't very soft and it wasn't super easy to open - I don't have too many other recipes to compare, but among the other things I tried 3 days dough fermenting in a fridge with IDY and most of the time it didn't need too much work to open it.

2. Second try was really similar, but this time I put 1.3% of sourdough and it came out much worse. It was actually a bit similar when opening, but it didn't rise properly in the oven and the crust was really chewy and had a bad structure.

When going through the forum before the first try I somehow missed the method of judging rise level by looking at bubbles on the bottom of the container, so I don't have any photos, but I took a picture of the second try. I must also say that at this point it's really hard for me to tell how much the dough rose, I literally have no idea, especially when the ball expands and looses its' shape. As you may see on the photos,there's almost no activity there, but I still wanted it to give it a go, for the sake of experimenting and you can see the poor result on the last photo.

I'm not sure what's the cause, which is why I would like to confirm my assumptions, but my theory is: my sourdough is not strong enough and the dough haven't risen enough. On the first try I doubled the sourdough amount by accident and it turned out better than the next one which kind of confirms that. I will try one more batch with much more sourdough, probably about 5%, but if anyone has an idea on what could be some other causes of such an effect, it would be great to hear.

I use this formula and this weekend bake was spectacular ..  I use Craig's method with a couple tweaks. flour 100%, water 61%, salt 2.8%, starter 3%,  280 gram balls..  makes perfect 12-13 inch pies

I keep my starter in the refrigerator and pull it out Wednesday morning and feed it. I then feed it again when i get home just before 5:00. At 8:00 it has doubled and thats when i make my dough.This would be for a friday night firing.

I add flour ..all of it to mixer bowl.I then add starter to flour. I then add water with salt dissolved already. I mix at lowest speed for 2 minutes. I then rest for 10 minutes. I mix again for 2 minutes and then rest for 10. I dump on marble and stretch and fold 4 to 5 times. I then kneed for a couple minutes. I cover with plastic wrap and let sit for 1 hour. I then give a couple more stretch and folds to feel the dough. If fine i put in container and then into cooler. When i pull out the next night 24 hours later. I also give a couple stretch and folds to get a feel for the dough. I divide by 4 and ball by using a tuck and fold and roll on counter. Thats it. I pull out 2-4 hours before i fire. I only change out the juice bottle every 24 hours. Works very well for me and i am in florida and the temp is 90 and the humidity is high. Even with aircon on it averages 50% humidity in the house. Hope this helps. couldn't have done it without Craig's help... ;D

Thx chris
« Last Edit: July 28, 2014, 06:46:50 AM by vandev »

Offline nythincrust11

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Re: How I make my NP dough
« Reply #136 on: July 31, 2014, 11:33:27 PM »
100% Caputo (my typical batch is ~1.3kg flour)
62.5% Water at about 40-45F (play with this over time in a range of 60-64%)
3.0% Salt (I would not go lower than 2.5% or more than maybe 3.1%)
1.3% Ischia Culture (fully active) NO FRESH YEAST, IDY, or ADY!!! Trust your culture. The hydration and flour you use in your culture donít matter much at quantities this low.  Iím probably a little stiffer than 100%, but I doubt it is significant.

Im sorry I now I look like a idiot, but Im pretty new to this but what do the percentages mean or convert to? How much of each ingredient do you use per say ounces, cups, etc?

Offline pacdunes

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Re: How I make my NP dough
« Reply #137 on: July 31, 2014, 11:57:42 PM »
I was giving Craig's recipe a try twice lately and it definitely didn't come out as expected. I hope some of the experts here can help me find out what's wrong.

First of all, I use modified small pizza oven (as in G3 Ferrari thread). It's not WFO, so obviously the results will differ, but it comes quite close.

Second thing is, I'm not sure if my culture is actually Ischia - it took me quite a while to activate it and I'm afraid by the time it got active, it may as well have been completely other culture which just happen to move into the jar.

My 2 tries went as follows:

1. I followed the recipe quite closely, I guess the only difference in handling the dough is that I haven't done "slap and fold", but rather "stretch and fold". 24h in bulk at 65F, then about 14h in balls at 65F and last 10h or so in 78F. I used Caputo Chef's flour (red bag). The difference in proportions was 2 times more sourdough (about 3%), I actually put too much by accident and just left it like that. The dough was ok, but it wasn't very soft and it wasn't super easy to open - I don't have too many other recipes to compare, but among the other things I tried 3 days dough fermenting in a fridge with IDY and most of the time it didn't need too much work to open it.

2. Second try was really similar, but this time I put 1.3% of sourdough and it came out much worse. It was actually a bit similar when opening, but it didn't rise properly in the oven and the crust was really chewy and had a bad structure.

When going through the forum before the first try I somehow missed the method of judging rise level by looking at bubbles on the bottom of the container, so I don't have any photos, but I took a picture of the second try. I must also say that at this point it's really hard for me to tell how much the dough rose, I literally have no idea, especially when the ball expands and looses its' shape. As you may see on the photos,there's almost no activity there, but I still wanted it to give it a go, for the sake of experimenting and you can see the poor result on the last photo.

I'm not sure what's the cause, which is why I would like to confirm my assumptions, but my theory is: my sourdough is not strong enough and the dough haven't risen enough. On the first try I doubled the sourdough amount by accident and it turned out better than the next one which kind of confirms that. I will try one more batch with much more sourdough, probably about 5%, but if anyone has an idea on what could be some other causes of such an effect, it would be great to hear.
I think it's your sourdough starter that is the culprit.

Offline TXCraig1

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Re: How I make my NP dough
« Reply #138 on: August 01, 2014, 12:34:27 AM »
Im sorry I now I look like a idiot, but Im pretty new to this but what do the percentages mean or convert to? How much of each ingredient do you use per say ounces, cups, etc?

Multiply the % by the flour weight and that is how much to use. For example, say you use 1000g of flour, you would use 62.5% x 1000g = 625g water.

There is no such thing as a true weight to volume conversion. The % work for grams and oz (weight). When making dough, don't ever measure anything in oz (volume), cups, etc. 
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Offline nythincrust11

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Re: How I make my NP dough
« Reply #139 on: August 01, 2014, 12:35:45 AM »
Its making a lot more sense now haha, thanks a lot.

Offline TXCraig1

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Re: How I make my NP dough
« Reply #140 on: August 01, 2014, 12:37:17 AM »
I was giving Craig's recipe a try twice lately and it definitely didn't come out as expected. I hope some of the experts here can help me find out what's wrong.

First of all, I use modified small pizza oven (as in G3 Ferrari thread). It's not WFO, so obviously the results will differ, but it comes quite close.

Second thing is, I'm not sure if my culture is actually Ischia - it took me quite a while to activate it and I'm afraid by the time it got active, it may as well have been completely other culture which just happen to move into the jar.

My 2 tries went as follows:

1. I followed the recipe quite closely, I guess the only difference in handling the dough is that I haven't done "slap and fold", but rather "stretch and fold". 24h in bulk at 65F, then about 14h in balls at 65F and last 10h or so in 78F. I used Caputo Chef's flour (red bag). The difference in proportions was 2 times more sourdough (about 3%), I actually put too much by accident and just left it like that. The dough was ok, but it wasn't very soft and it wasn't super easy to open - I don't have too many other recipes to compare, but among the other things I tried 3 days dough fermenting in a fridge with IDY and most of the time it didn't need too much work to open it.

2. Second try was really similar, but this time I put 1.3% of sourdough and it came out much worse. It was actually a bit similar when opening, but it didn't rise properly in the oven and the crust was really chewy and had a bad structure.

When going through the forum before the first try I somehow missed the method of judging rise level by looking at bubbles on the bottom of the container, so I don't have any photos, but I took a picture of the second try. I must also say that at this point it's really hard for me to tell how much the dough rose, I literally have no idea, especially when the ball expands and looses its' shape. As you may see on the photos,there's almost no activity there, but I still wanted it to give it a go, for the sake of experimenting and you can see the poor result on the last photo.

I'm not sure what's the cause, which is why I would like to confirm my assumptions, but my theory is: my sourdough is not strong enough and the dough haven't risen enough. On the first try I doubled the sourdough amount by accident and it turned out better than the next one which kind of confirms that. I will try one more batch with much more sourdough, probably about 5%, but if anyone has an idea on what could be some other causes of such an effect, it would be great to hear.

Your dough definately looks underfermented. There are all sorts of things that could have caused this. You will need to experiment.

Lately I've been using 1.9% yeast. That's probably a tiny bit high. 1.7% is probably about right for me.
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Offline Pizza-Dude

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Re: How I make my NP dough
« Reply #141 on: August 01, 2014, 06:20:07 AM »
Is it possible to do this with the kitchenaid instead of kneading by hand? I dont want to keep cleaning, washing, etc. my counters :(


Online Pete-zza

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Re: How I make my NP dough
« Reply #142 on: August 01, 2014, 07:25:19 AM »
What Craig says in Reply 138 is especially true of flour and, to a lesser degree, water (in the sense that the variations in flour are typically greater than for water in my experience). What he says is also true of other ingredients, since one might measure out, say, a teaspoon of a particular ingredient, using a level teaspoon, a rounded teaspoon or a scant teaspoon. Each will produce a different result. If I need to convert a given volume of an ingredient to a weight, I will usually weigh a level teaspoon of the ingredient five times and take the average. In the various dough calculating tools on the forum, there are no conversions of flour, water or cake yeast to volume measurements. The rest of the conversions are based on government data, or conversions based on data found on labels, or weighings such as mentioned above. In some cases, as where there are many brands of an ingredient, I have sometimes taken the average of the multiple brands to use as conversion factors in the dough calculating tools.

Peter

Offline norma427

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Re: How I make my NP dough
« Reply #143 on: August 01, 2014, 08:14:03 AM »
Is it possible to do this with the kitchenaid instead of kneading by hand? I dont want to keep cleaning, washing, etc. my counters :(

Pizza-Dude,

Craig does use a Kitchen Aid to mix his dough. 

Norma

Offline TXCraig1

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Re: How I make my NP dough
« Reply #144 on: August 01, 2014, 10:11:02 AM »
What Craig says in Reply 138 is especially true of flour and, to a lesser degree, water (in the sense that the variations in flour are typically greater than for water in my experience). What he says is also true of other ingredients, since one might measure out, say, a teaspoon of a particular ingredient, using a level teaspoon, a rounded teaspoon or a scant teaspoon. Each will produce a different result. If I need to convert a given volume of an ingredient to a weight, I will usually weigh a level teaspoon of the ingredient five times and take the average. In the various dough calculating tools on the forum, there are no conversions of flour, water or cake yeast to volume measurements. The rest of the conversions are based on government data, or conversions based on data found on labels, or weighings such as mentioned above. In some cases, as where there are many brands of an ingredient, I have sometimes taken the average of the multiple brands to use as conversion factors in the dough calculating tools.

Peter

Everything Peter writes is correct. I made my statement very broad to express my view on the importance of using weight measurements. I'd also note that the more one scales a recipe down, the more important it becomes as small errors represent a larger fraction of the whole.
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Offline TXCraig1

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Re: How I make my NP dough
« Reply #145 on: August 01, 2014, 10:16:02 AM »
Pizza-Dude,

Craig does use a Kitchen Aid to mix his dough. 

Norma

My KA is an old K5SS. My normal batch is 1.7kg of flour, but that is probably a bit more than the mixer was designed to handle and takes a bit of technique. It doesn't work well with small amounts of dough at all.
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Offline Pizza-Dude

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Re: How I make my NP dough
« Reply #146 on: August 02, 2014, 05:18:56 PM »
Pizza-Dude,

Craig does use a Kitchen Aid to mix his dough. 

Norma

Norma--

I saw that but my understanding is that he then takes the dough out of the mixer and does the smack-and-fold on the counter? I'd prefer to do it "all in the mixer" if possible?

Offline TXCraig1

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Re: How I make my NP dough
« Reply #147 on: August 02, 2014, 05:26:10 PM »
I can't get the smoothness I want in the KA. I basically use it to get everything homogeneous.
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Offline vandev

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Re: How I make my NP dough
« Reply #148 on: August 02, 2014, 05:43:24 PM »
Norma--

I saw that but my understanding is that he then takes the dough out of the mixer and does the smack-and-fold on the counter? I'd prefer to do it "all in the mixer" if possible?

If you really want to start to figure out your dough you will need to get your hands into it. Texture, feel and elasticity are all things you can't tell by looking in a mixer. The Strech and fold..or kneed.....Not smack and fold..... will do 2 important things. One of them is two see how your dough feels. two is to get air worked in for good gluten development.  If you can tear off a small piece and stretch it until it is translucent...you are on the right track...You got to get jiggy with it.. ;)

Chris
« Last Edit: August 02, 2014, 06:11:32 PM by vandev »

Offline TXCraig1

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Re: How I make my NP dough
« Reply #149 on: August 02, 2014, 05:45:57 PM »
I would probably describe what I do as more of a "stretchy knead."

The only time I do a true stretch-and-fold is when I mix the dough completely by hand. It is an indispensable tool in that regard.
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