Author Topic: How I make my NP dough  (Read 54471 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline Jackitup

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 3899
  • Age: 59
  • Location: Hastings, MN
Re: How I make my NP dough
« Reply #20 on: October 16, 2012, 03:22:48 AM »
Here is the spreadsheet I use to make my dough. You can change the yellow cells.

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0AuvMQbzk5INUdE1mVkMyOEY2My1sc1phRTJBSmo5TVE#gid=0


Craig,

Just seen this post with the spreadsheet calculator. LOVE IT!! Thanks for sharing. We have a few very similar at work I use with ventilator management calculations and never thought of throwing pizza stuff in there. Simple and handy!

jon
Save A Cow, Eat A Vegan....Totally Organic And Hormone Free!!


Offline TXCraig1

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 12848
  • Location: Houston, TX
Re: How I make my NP dough
« Reply #21 on: October 16, 2012, 11:26:22 PM »
I'm happy it's helpful. Keep in mind that if you are using a lot of culture (>5% or so) you might want to adjust your calculation so that the culture figures into the formula hydration number.

CL
Pizza is not bread.

Offline sub

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 526
  • Location: Belgium
Re: How I make my NP dough
« Reply #22 on: October 26, 2012, 08:39:36 AM »
In a nutshell, I use a 48 hour ferment, 24 hours in bulk at 65F, 12 hours in balls at 65F, and another 12 in balls at 75F (this will vary between 65 and 75F as needed).

Hi Craig,

Can you explain me why you let the dough rest in balls this long, why don't you do: 43h ferment in bulk, forming the balls and 5h to warm and rise.

Thank you for sharing!

Offline scott r

  • Supporting Member
  • *
  • Posts: 3075
  • Age: 43
  • Location: boston
  • I Love Pizzafreaks!
Re: How I make my NP dough
« Reply #23 on: October 26, 2012, 09:45:30 AM »
tenderness :)

Offline TXCraig1

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 12848
  • Location: Houston, TX
Re: How I make my NP dough
« Reply #24 on: October 26, 2012, 03:08:28 PM »
Yes, tenderness and ease of opening.
Pizza is not bread.

Offline Trestrey

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 9
Re: How I make my NP dough
« Reply #25 on: November 27, 2012, 12:42:32 PM »
Hi Folks,
I have been learning a bunch from the neapolitan threads.  Thanks! So, I have created a great sourdough starter using whole wheat flour and pineapple juice/water.  I fed it once since I made it, and it is raging.  I had exclusively been an IDY user, prior. 

For my first go at it with the starter, I used TXCraig's Neapolitian dough folmula, but instead of dissolving the starter in the water before mixing in with the flour, I just plopped my weighed-out little blob of starter in with the whole mix in the KA.  I missed that detail before I began.  I am doing a 24 hr RT rise at the moment, and am now worried that I won't get the yeast reaction I would want because the starter may not have evenly homogenized while mixing in the KA.  I mixed at 1 on the KA for five minutes.  The bowl was clean when I was done, and the dough was a nice consistency. 

Any thougthts on the consequences of not dissolving my starter?  What is standard/preferred practice for adding your starter to the mix?  Thanks for your time! 

jim

Offline dellavecchia

  • Lifetime Member
  • *
  • Posts: 2628
Re: How I make my NP dough
« Reply #26 on: November 27, 2012, 01:20:32 PM »
Hi Folks,
I have been learning a bunch from the neapolitan threads.  Thanks! So, I have created a great sourdough starter using whole wheat flour and pineapple juice/water.  I fed it once since I made it, and it is raging.  I had exclusively been an IDY user, prior. 

For my first go at it with the starter, I used TXCraig's Neapolitian dough folmula, but instead of dissolving the starter in the water before mixing in with the flour, I just plopped my weighed-out little blob of starter in with the whole mix in the KA.  I missed that detail before I began.  I am doing a 24 hr RT rise at the moment, and am now worried that I won't get the yeast reaction I would want because the starter may not have evenly homogenized while mixing in the KA.  I mixed at 1 on the KA for five minutes.  The bowl was clean when I was done, and the dough was a nice consistency. 

Any thougthts on the consequences of not dissolving my starter?  What is standard/preferred practice for adding your starter to the mix?  Thanks for your time! 

jim

It will not adversely affect your final product.

John

Offline Trestrey

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 9
Re: How I make my NP dough
« Reply #27 on: November 27, 2012, 03:35:07 PM »
Thanks for the reply John.  I appreciate it.  I am in Cambridge, MA, by the way.  I know Natick fairly well. 

Offline pizzablogger

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 1334
  • Location: Baltimore
Re: How I make my NP dough
« Reply #28 on: November 30, 2012, 03:41:18 PM »
Yes, tenderness and ease of opening.

Craig, I have not looked at your most recent workflow recently, but at home I have been using a 24/24 hr regimen for a while. The pizza stand at the market used a 24/14 regimen.

I had a recent and humbling experience.

Have been so used to forming my own dough (it partically opens itself) that I didn't realize I was making a "lazy man's" dough that anyone could form into a skin.

Recently I had the need to try and form skins from refrigerated dough.  Nothing wrong with the dough, but it was a *totally* different experience than what I had grown accustomed to. I struggled to open the dough balls into a 12" ball and after a few tries was really slapped in the face with my lack of skill. Wow.

An eye opener.....I feel a good pizza maker should be able to reasonably open and shape almost any type of doughball (assuming it isn't defective) into the required diameter. Not this donkey! --K
"It's Baltimore, gentlemen, the gods will not save you." --Burrell

Offline TXCraig1

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 12848
  • Location: Houston, TX
Re: How I make my NP dough
« Reply #29 on: January 01, 2013, 02:07:04 PM »
I created a model to predict starter quantity/time/fermentation temperature combinations that could be used to adapt this formula to different situations and timing requirements.

http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,22649.msg229864.html#msg229864
Pizza is not bread.


Offline DavePZ

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 28
Re: How I make my NP dough
« Reply #30 on: February 10, 2013, 02:42:28 PM »
Anyone -
I want to try sourdough, but am a bit confused with some of the terminology...
What is the difference between a Starter and a Culture?
My real question is....I have started a sourdough culture, by buying one of those dormant cultures online....and have fed it for a few days, and it is going well. But when the recipe at the top of this thread says 1.3% (which is equivalent to about a tsp), do I just take one tsp out of my jar of starter?
The reason this sounds weird, is that when I look at recipies for sourdough online, most of them call for 1/2-1 cup of starter.

Want to make sure I am interpreting everything correctly.

Thanks!!!!!
Dave

Offline dellavecchia

  • Lifetime Member
  • *
  • Posts: 2628
Re: How I make my NP dough
« Reply #31 on: February 10, 2013, 02:57:24 PM »
Hi Dave - they are one in the same, and yes, you use a small amount in this recipe. But the starter must be active when used. You feed it once, maybe twice, and it doubles. Then you use it in the recipe.

The amount of starter is subject to the amount of time you are fermenting the dough. The recipes you see online are probably for short time periods, like a few hours, and require a much larger percentage of starter.

John

Offline DavePZ

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 28
Re: How I make my NP dough
« Reply #32 on: February 10, 2013, 04:44:05 PM »
Thanks John! That makes perfect sense.
I am going to be trying my new "pizza oven adapter" on my weber gas grill this week, and am very hopeful...

Cheers!
Dave

Offline TXCraig1

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 12848
  • Location: Houston, TX
Re: How I make my NP dough
« Reply #33 on: February 10, 2013, 04:54:10 PM »
Dave, the amount of starter is, as John noted, a function of temperature and time. This post will give you some guidance on adapting the recipe to your time and temperature windows: http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,22649.msg229864.html#msg229864

Keep in mind that this table is designed to give you an idea when the dough will be ready to bake. You may have to experiment a little given your specific culture and recipe - particularly if you go outside of the green zone. Also, "dough ready to bake" doesn't mean "dough tastes the same." Fermentation temperature is one of the variables that can and will influence the flavor of your dough. My experience is that dough fermented in the 60-65F range develops the best flavor.

Craig
Pizza is not bread.

Offline DavePZ

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 28
Re: How I make my NP dough
« Reply #34 on: February 10, 2013, 06:38:40 PM »
Fantastic Study Craig!....and it has sparked a question...

Letís say we have made a batch of dough. Separated into two different, equally sized dough balls initially.
Then we throw one in the fridge at 50F, and let the other sit out at 70F.

Now, we know that the bacteria will ferment slower or faster based on the temperature. And letís say for arguments sake, that the dough at 70F will ferment twice as fast as the dough at 50F.

After 10 hours, I take the dough ball out of the fridge, and place in a box that is maintained at 80F.

Letís say for arguments sake, that the bacteria will ferment 1.5 times as fast at 80F than at 70F.

We wait another 10 hours.

SO now, both dough balls have seen equal amounts of "bacteria work time". One was going at say 10 Miles per hour for 20 hours (or 200 miles of bacteria work time), and the second was at 5 miles per hour for 10 hours (50 miles), and then 15 mph for 10 hours.(plus 150), for a total of 200 miles of bacteria work time)

My question is, will there be any difference in the finished dough? The real question here, is does the rate of fermentation affect the final result of the fermentation? If it ultimately gets to the same place in terms of total work that the bacteria does?

Thoughts?

Offline TXCraig1

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 12848
  • Location: Houston, TX
Re: How I make my NP dough
« Reply #35 on: February 10, 2013, 08:42:02 PM »
Dave, Yes, there will be meaningful differences even if the balls appear identical in terms of signs of fermentation. SD (dourdough) is a symbiotic culture of both yeast and Lactic Acid Bacteria (LAB). Both contribute to the work of fermentation Ė there is both yeast and lactic acid fermentation happening. Both produce CO2 which causes the dough to rise, but there is a lot of other stuff going on, and that stuff varies with temperature.

This is horribly oversimplified, but generally speaking, the biochemical processes are different at different temperatures. There are changes in the relationship between the yeast and LAB and their respective metabolisms resulting from differences in the activity level of the respective flora and changes in enzyme activity that affect the sugars present and the competition for those sugars.

Flavor varies with temperature because the acids and other byproducts of fermentation change with temperature. For example, cooler temps favor acetic acid production while warmer temperatures favor lactic acid production. There are dozens of alcohols other than ethanol produced in addition to many aldehydes and other compounds. The ratio of these compounds is also affected by temperature.

I, along with others here, have generally found that the best flavor is typically developed at temperatures around 60-65F.
Pizza is not bread.

Offline DavePZ

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 28
Re: How I make my NP dough
« Reply #36 on: February 10, 2013, 09:08:52 PM »
Thanks! Wow, this stuff is so fascinating.
I appreciate the explanation. Makes sense.
Dave

Offline Rick M

  • Supporting Member
  • *
  • Posts: 19
  • Location: Rahway, NJ
Re: How I make my NP dough
« Reply #37 on: February 16, 2013, 11:33:37 AM »
Craig,

  Just received my Ischia Culture yesterday, I am still into the 90 degree mode of getting it ready. Tommorow i will bring it down to 70 degrees.    I should be ready in a couple more days.  My normal process of making dough with my work schedule is I start two days in advance.  Can you check my figures please.

Friday night - 8pm  1.5% starter in my kitchen at 68 degrees in bulk for 12 hours till morning.
Saturday morning - 8am divided into balls and into dough trays into the coldest part of my basement which is 60 degrees for 24 hours.
Sunday morning - 8 am place the trays in the warmest part of the house (70 degrees) for 9 hours.  Start cooking around 5pm

Does this sound alright?

Thanks!

Rick M
It was love at first Slice!

Offline TXCraig1

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 12848
  • Location: Houston, TX
Re: How I make my NP dough
« Reply #38 on: February 16, 2013, 12:02:39 PM »
Craig,

  Just received my Ischia Culture yesterday, I am still into the 90 degree mode of getting it ready. Tommorow i will bring it down to 70 degrees.    I should be ready in a couple more days.  My normal process of making dough with my work schedule is I start two days in advance.  Can you check my figures please.

Friday night - 8pm  1.5% starter in my kitchen at 68 degrees in bulk for 12 hours till morning.
Saturday morning - 8am divided into balls and into dough trays into the coldest part of my basement which is 60 degrees for 24 hours.
Sunday morning - 8 am place the trays in the warmest part of the house (70 degrees) for 9 hours.  Start cooking around 5pm

Does this sound alright?

Thanks!

Rick M

Yes, I think that sounds good. Keep an eye on it during the last 9 hours. You might need to warm it up or cool it down some if things are not progressing as expected.

It can take a new starter a few weeks or months to settle in and get predictable.

CL
Pizza is not bread.

Offline sdarrow

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 14
Re: How I make my NP dough
« Reply #39 on: March 17, 2013, 12:17:32 PM »
Hi Craig or others. I am following Craig's directions and did first 24hr in bulk at 65 degrees and balled them last night and kept at 65 degrees. Have not seen any rise so I moved them into oven with light on (about75 degrees). This is my first SD try and not sure it the balls should rise to the same extent as standard dough with yeast. How much rise should I expect?


 

pizzapan