Author Topic: How I make my NP dough  (Read 36846 times)

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Online scott123

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Re: How I make my NP dough
« Reply #80 on: August 05, 2013, 08:53:18 PM »
I'm not sure you'd get much from my balling technique, but I think the way I open the skins is a little different from some.

How many videos of non slappy opening techniques have you come across? There was a video from Chris Bianco on Jimmy Kimmel (San Gennaro), but that's no longer accessible.  A non slappy opening video would be gold, imo.  A good portion of the blackstoners are struggling with the stretch because many come from a NY background (apples and oranges from an opening perspective).  This would help them especially.


Offline Pulcinella

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Re: How I make my NP dough
« Reply #81 on: August 06, 2013, 01:57:48 AM »
In my opinion a neapolitan dough shouldn't be opened like NY style dough (on your knuckles/fists) --- particularly when the neapolitan dough is high hydration, very soft and you want to bake more than 1 pizza simultaneously. Trust me on this, I learned this the hard way. Ask Marco, Salvo, Don Luigi, or any other professional Neapolitan pizzaioli. They all advise you NOT to open your neapolitan dough on knuckles/fists unless your way of doing it is flawless. you can get away with doing knuckles with NY style pizza because the dough is higher gluten, tougher than Neapolitan dough. Also because NY style pie is not manipulated/rotated on oven floor as much as Neapolitan pizza. Neapolitan pizza baking is very interactive.

When you open your Neapolitan dough on your knuckles/fists, certain areas on the dough disk receive more pressure/force. Those certain areas <<because of the undue stress they received in opening the dough>> are likely to bubble/puff upward when baking the pizza on hot oven floor if the weight of toppings do not hold them down. This makes rotating the pizzas on oven floor difficult/risky. The stressed areas are easy to tear on oven floor when rotating the pizzas with turning peels. Next time you bake a marinara pizza (opened on your knuckles/feasts) see how many bubbles/puffy areas may appear on surface of your pizza. If the dough is opened/stretched correctly, no bubble is expected to appear on correctly topped pizza. Launching a pizza correctly in the oven floor <<without too much shaking the pizza peel back and forth>> is the other side of the coin. It be good if Omid chime in here, he was the one who warned me against opening dough balls on knuckles/fists and shaky launching pizzas.

Offline breffni

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Re: How I make my NP dough
« Reply #82 on: August 06, 2013, 11:34:46 AM »
Craig - I'd also love to see a video of the way you open your dough. Was about to ask you yesterday to expand upon your post linked below that showed the stages of your opening...
I have had excellent recent results using your dough making method (best for me has been 60% hydration, 3% salt, 1.7% Ischia starter, 24-36 hr bulk at 65F, 24 hr balled at 65F, then 2-3 hours 75-80F), the texture is just tremendous and gets rave reviews.
Opens so nice, but I'm still struggling with the cornice, no where near the size of yours  - then also noticed in these pictures that you do most of the opening in a pile of flour? I'd been doing on a more lightly floured marble surface, so maybe keep more control in more flour?

http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,20479.msg207742.html#msg207742

Offline TXCraig1

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Re: How I make my NP dough
« Reply #83 on: August 06, 2013, 12:02:54 PM »
then also noticed in these pictures that you do most of the opening in a pile of flour?

That's mainly because it opens so easily - a couple quick presses and it's almost completely open. I generally dump the ball into the pile of flour, flip it once and press it open, flip it again and press it open, then it's out of the flour. I pick it up, blow off excess flour, and then finish the opening on a lightly flowered surface. Sometimes on cooler days or if the dough is very cool, I do all the opening on just a lightly floured surface.
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Offline breffni

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Re: How I make my NP dough
« Reply #84 on: August 06, 2013, 12:20:48 PM »
Makes sense, thanks.
We've been dumping the ball into a bowl of flour, flipping to coat both sides, then moving to lightly floured table to open (following the form cornice/flip 90 degrees and stretch/flip 90 degrees and final stretch method...with additional stretching over back of hand as I cannot yet master the way Omid and other pros have done in their videos where they quickly fold over their hand to the right then stretch and throw it back to the left while rotating...surely has a name, but guess I'll call it The Impossible for newbies like me).

One more question - we load onto the GI perforated, lightly dusting it with flour but surely also picking up excess floor from the table. Is there a 'shake' method, or other recommended step to take to eliminate taking too much flour into the oven causing burning?

as always, thanks

Offline TXCraig1

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Re: How I make my NP dough
« Reply #85 on: August 06, 2013, 12:40:43 PM »
One more question - we load onto the GI perforated, lightly dusting it with flour but surely also picking up excess floor from the table. Is there a 'shake' method, or other recommended step to take to eliminate taking too much flour into the oven causing burning?

I do the same thing - I lightly dust the GI perf peel then give the handle a whack with my hand to shake off any excess. I then shoot it under the pie. I don't think it's going to pick up any excess off the table - just whatever is already stuck to the bottom of the pie. I would not recommend shaking the peel after it is loaded unless maybe if you think something might be sticking and you need to fix it before launching. Shaking the peel is going to cause your pie to contract. It will also encourage it to come back into round which I don't want. I want my pie a bid oblong with the wide axis perpendicular to the direction of launch. This way when the pie stretches as the peel is pulled out from under it, it stretches into a round shape to an oblong shape in the direction of the pull. My pie is usually hanging over the side edges a little which also I also suspect is not good for shaking.
I love pigs. They convert vegetables into bacon.

Offline Federalist226

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Re: How I make my NP dough
« Reply #86 on: August 15, 2013, 11:31:02 AM »
Just want to tel TXCraig1 thanks for putting this tutorial together! This past weekend I used these steps to turn out my best NP pizza to date. I cook on a Big Green Egg, which is no substitute for a real WFO, but I think I've rigged it to get as close to WFO conditions as possible. Obviously I have a long way to go, but thanks for all the help! (Hopefully the pictures I'm trying to post show up...)


Offline TXCraig1

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Re: How I make my NP dough
« Reply #87 on: August 15, 2013, 03:41:05 PM »
Just want to tel TXCraig1 thanks for putting this tutorial together! This past weekend I used these steps to turn out my best NP pizza to date. I cook on a Big Green Egg, which is no substitute for a real WFO, but I think I've rigged it to get as close to WFO conditions as possible. Obviously I have a long way to go, but thanks for all the help! (Hopefully the pictures I'm trying to post show up...)

Very nice! I'm glad it helped.
I love pigs. They convert vegetables into bacon.

Offline Oceans05

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Re: How I make my NP dough
« Reply #88 on: August 15, 2013, 04:30:52 PM »
Great lookin pizza!

I also vote towards a gentle handling of the dough video. Many of the videos I have seen are from professionals with either an NY style or the neapolitan style with quick stretching with the right hand and flipping over your hand with the left hand and tugging with the left hand.

I think unconsciously murder my pies while opening because I found the easiest way was over the knuckles.

Offline verve

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Re: How I make my NP dough
« Reply #89 on: October 21, 2013, 10:05:28 AM »
Hi Craig,


first of, thank you so much for all the info and the help!! truly amazing what you put on here!!

I've been following your recipes closely as well as the fermentation times chart but I seem to be having a problem.

I let my dough ferment for 24 hours at around 72f. Once I make the balls, I usually let them rest for nearly as long at the same temperatures... The result is that the dough balls are tearing compeletely. If i try to play with them and stretch them, they stretch, but also tear, almost like the douhg is falling apart...


Is this because of over fermentation?

Could it also be that I don't knead the dough enogh at the start? Unlike yourself, I didnt do the stretch and folds, simply because some pizzaiolo's i know say not to 'upset' the dough, and to let the fermentation do the talking...

Apart for not doing stretch and folds I follow your recipes and techinque one-for-one but still get a very weak dough falling apart everywhere...


Thanks for your help.


David


Offline Ronzo

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Re: How I make my NP dough
« Reply #90 on: October 21, 2013, 10:39:39 AM »
Great pies and great write up Craig.
Fuggheddabowdit!

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Offline bbqchuck

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Re: How I make my NP dough
« Reply #91 on: November 15, 2013, 05:24:49 PM »
Question for Craig...

Are you buying bulk 25 kg blue bag Pizzaria Caputo (12.75% protein per their data sheet) for your dough? 

I have been using retail 1 kg red bag Chefs Flour (13.5% protein per their data sheet) and I'm not sure I like the results.

Offline TXCraig1

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Re: How I make my NP dough
« Reply #92 on: November 15, 2013, 05:40:15 PM »
Question for Craig...

Are you buying bulk 25 kg blue bag Pizzaria Caputo (12.75% protein per their data sheet) for your dough? 

I have been using retail 1 kg red bag Chefs Flour (13.5% protein per their data sheet) and I'm not sure I like the results.

Yes - 25kg blue. If they are not the same, that is a relatively recent change.
I love pigs. They convert vegetables into bacon.

Offline bbqchuck

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Re: How I make my NP dough
« Reply #93 on: November 15, 2013, 06:31:46 PM »
Yes - 25kg blue. If they are not the same, that is a relatively recent change.

I pulled up that old 08-09 thread where Peter corresponded with Fred at Caputo.  Fred indicated the 1 kg Chef's flour was the same as the Pizzaria 25kg blue bag.  But when you go to their site (now) it shows a good bit of difference in the protein content.

I was just going to buy the little bags, since I have a few other flours in my fridge, including a fair bit of KASL and another hi gluten flour as well as KABF and some Caputo Chef's.  But if it's indeed producing different results due to the gluten difference, I guess I'm going to get bulk.  At least it's cooler and should store ok if I can't get it all in the fridge.

Offline Federalist226

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Re: How I make my NP dough
« Reply #94 on: November 18, 2013, 11:11:18 AM »
Question for the pros. I have had iffy results lately. About 50% of the time my dough fails to achieve acceptable oven spring, even though cooking conditions are the same (700+ degrees on floor and 850-950 air temp) and I follow the TXCraig1 procedure. This last batch, cooked yesterday, looked great after the 48 hour rise. There appeared to be plenty of yeast activity looking in from the bottom of the Tupperware and my Ischia starter is very active. The dough felt a little different when I opened it up - perhaps a little softer and less stretchy than when I have a batch that turns out well. I'm wondering what causes these bad batches. Am I overworking the dough? Thanks!

Offline TXCraig1

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Re: How I make my NP dough
« Reply #95 on: November 18, 2013, 09:53:29 PM »
Question for the pros. I have had iffy results lately. About 50% of the time my dough fails to achieve acceptable oven spring, even though cooking conditions are the same (700+ degrees on floor and 850-950 air temp) and I follow the TXCraig1 procedure. This last batch, cooked yesterday, looked great after the 48 hour rise. There appeared to be plenty of yeast activity looking in from the bottom of the Tupperware and my Ischia starter is very active. The dough felt a little different when I opened it up - perhaps a little softer and less stretchy than when I have a batch that turns out well. I'm wondering what causes these bad batches. Am I overworking the dough? Thanks!

I don't know what to tell you on that one. I've experimented with a pretty wide range of working the dough without any major failures. I do tend to error in the side of under-working, however I think if you are overworking the dough, you are working it A LOT more than I suggest in this thread.
I love pigs. They convert vegetables into bacon.

Offline Federalist226

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Re: How I make my NP dough
« Reply #96 on: November 19, 2013, 10:36:50 AM »
I don't know what to tell you on that one. I've experimented with a pretty wide range of working the dough without any major failures. I do tend to error in the side of under-working, however I think if you are overworking the dough, you are working it A LOT more than I suggest in this thread.

Hmmm. Perplexing, because I don't feel that I am working the dough a lot more than suggested in your instructions. But my results have been dramatic: either magnificent or total failure. I guess the right answer is probably just more practice for more consistent results! Thanks again for your help!

Offline bbqchuck

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Re: How I make my NP dough
« Reply #97 on: November 19, 2013, 04:05:22 PM »
Fed226,
What yeast are you using?

Offline Federalist226

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Re: How I make my NP dough
« Reply #98 on: November 19, 2013, 05:06:55 PM »
Fed226,
What yeast are you using?

Ischia starter that I've been growing for several months. It stays on my counter and I keep it pretty active, feeding it every day or every couple of days. It is frothy when I make my dough.

Offline TOM1L21

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Re: How I make my NP dough
« Reply #99 on: January 11, 2014, 12:30:21 AM »
Hi Craig,


first of, thank you so much for all the info and the help!! truly amazing what you put on here!!

I've been following your recipes closely as well as the fermentation times chart but I seem to be having a problem.

I let my dough ferment for 24 hours at around 72f. Once I make the balls, I usually let them rest for nearly as long at the same temperatures... The result is that the dough balls are tearing compeletely. If i try to play with them and stretch them, they stretch, but also tear, almost like the douhg is falling apart...


Is this because of over fermentation?

Could it also be that I don't knead the dough enogh at the start? Unlike yourself, I didnt do the stretch and folds, simply because some pizzaiolo's i know say not to 'upset' the dough, and to let the fermentation do the talking...

Apart for not doing stretch and folds I follow your recipes and techinque one-for-one but still get a very weak dough falling apart everywhere...


Thanks for your help.


David

I had an almost identical experience when trying to use 72 hour old dough fermented at 65F. At 48 hr, there wasn't a ton of activity with my 1.3% home-grown starter so I gave it another 24 hrs. It didn't help either that it was 0F that night. Anyways, when I opened the dough, I did so gently on my knuckles which it then proceeded to tear apart in horizontal layers full of pea size holes (much like a sieve). I made a new batch with 3% starter and will give it 48 hrs before I bake it tomorrow night. I'll report back with results.