Author Topic: A PHILOSOPHY OF PIZZA NAPOLETANISMO!  (Read 396325 times)

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Offline Neopolitan

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Re: A PHILOSOPHY OF PIZZA NAPOLETANISMO!
« Reply #2720 on: January 24, 2015, 01:51:37 AM »
I have worked in a restaurants kitchen, and very brief with a artisanal French bakery that uses a beautiful steam assisted stone floor frenchoven. The baker was trained by A woodfired artisan in France. But personaly he preferd to work with a electric oven Because of the more stable temp control.

My passion really started burning higher when triyng to produce my own sourdough Pizza Napoletana and Calzone at home, in a old defected convection oven with heavy steel plates, and designing and building a woodfired pizza oven from cob with my family in law in Greece. Each year i visit Hellas I try to enhance this oven and my pizza, next visit I try to build a fixed isolation and shelter around the oven.

I would love to bake Bread at home But Then I should buy or build a indoor oven at home.

Are You planning to get A woodfired oven for the pizza?
« Last Edit: January 24, 2015, 01:53:29 AM by Neopolitan »

Offline sub

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Re: A PHILOSOPHY OF PIZZA NAPOLETANISMO!
« Reply #2721 on: January 24, 2015, 05:37:33 AM »
I learnt in Italy that the pizza Napoletana is baked from the top. So I have the pizza sitting close to the top (about 10cm) and the top heating of the oven reflecting on the layer of chamotte tiles, increasing the temperature of the upper half. In this way we increased the temperature of the oven to 320 and then 330 C

Hi Korinthos,

10 cm isn't close enough, raise it to 6cm,  get the stone hotter, trick the thermostat if you have to, the heating element should always be glowing red.

Good luck  >:D

Offline Korinthos

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Re: A PHILOSOPHY OF PIZZA NAPOLETANISMO!
« Reply #2722 on: January 24, 2015, 06:37:03 PM »
I have worked in a restaurants kitchen, and very brief with a artisanal French bakery that uses a beautiful steam assisted stone floor frenchoven. The baker was trained by A woodfired artisan in France. But personaly he preferd to work with a electric oven Because of the more stable temp control.

My passion really started burning higher when triyng to produce my own sourdough Pizza Napoletana and Calzone at home, in a old defected convection oven with heavy steel plates, and designing and building a woodfired pizza oven from cob with my family in law in Greece. Each year i visit Hellas I try to enhance this oven and my pizza, next visit I try to build a fixed isolation and shelter around the oven.

I would love to bake Bread at home But Then I should buy or build a indoor oven at home.

Are You planning to get A woodfired oven for the pizza?

24/1/15
Kalispera Case,

Thank you for your answer. Having worked in a bakery with a steam assisted stone floor french oven you had valuable practical experience when deciding to build your own cob oven in Greece. Did you build your cob oven in the traditional greek way usually found in the countryside, or did you make it based mainly on your own plans and ideas ?

 My grandparents had ovens at their house in the village in Peloponnesse as all houses had ovens to bake the family bread and other food in the countryside.  I remember my grandfather who was a butcher and needed to bake for his tavern. For the Virgin Mary celebrations of 15th August he was roasting several pigs in this oven for a few days during this period. He was baking a whole pig in his big oven. He was measuring the temperature of the oven with his hand. Putting it inside the oven he was counting up to a certain number. If he could barely keep it until the end of numbering, the oven was ready. He then inserted the whole pig through the opening, tied to a stake passing through it. Then closed the oven door and sealed it with mud. The pig would bake sealed inside for many hours. When opening the door, it would have an orange-brown crunchy caramelized crust and a melting flesh.

I also love to bake in a wood fired oven or by an open fire. However, my plans are to buy an electrical oven for my pizzeria and bake in it pizza Napoletana. I recently visited the baking and pizza exhibition SIGEP in Italy and saw professional electrical ovens baking pizza Napoletana. I think that they bake well enough for a non-specialist audience. My plans are to buy one in the nearest time.

Did you consider baking bread in your home stove? I bake in my electrical home oven.

Have a good night,
Korinthos

Offline Korinthos

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Re: A PHILOSOPHY OF PIZZA NAPOLETANISMO!
« Reply #2723 on: January 24, 2015, 06:57:33 PM »
Hi Korinthos,

10 cm isn't close enough, raise it to 6cm,  get the stone hotter, trick the thermostat if you have to, the heating element should always be glowing red.

Good luck  >:D

Hello sub,

Thanks for the good tip. I will lift it up as much as possible. I will see what I can do with increasing of the temperature. The heating elements are hidden behind a metal sheet. Actually it is this top metallic sheet and resting on it (and hidden)are the heating elements. After your advice I am thinking about opening wholes so that the heat can escape easier through them.

We baked today and we reached temp of 320 C on the top. I baked for 4 minutes and get no color. Baking for 5 minutes adds some browning but hardens the crust and dries it. Next week i will try the changes.

Photo of 5 min hard crust marinara.

Have a good night,
Korinthos


Offline Neopolitan

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Re: A PHILOSOPHY OF PIZZA NAPOLETANISMO!
« Reply #2724 on: January 24, 2015, 10:46:12 PM »
In Napels they would not consider pizza from a electric oven Alla Napoletana :angel:

It is not only the high heat but also the extreme short bake that defines the Neapolitan way, A unintiated cliëntele might not notice But why label it Neapolitan If it is something else?

There is also the option of gas operated Neapolitan ovens, no wood, vent and chimney soot Free, less firehazard and probaly less dificult to get a permit for.

The prof burners are expensive tough. But depending on gas versus wood price in Your area this could be a good infestment.

The design for the 90cm WFO in Greece is my own, At the time I Did not have A cleu and I did change the Original design of the oven by adding a floor on top of the One year old firebricks to 'lower' the dome wich was to high and lowered the oven entrance to Neapolitan specs.

It Will be enhanced by a fixed shelter and isolation, since the cob dome suffers from the strong rain in the winter, and Burns more efective with isolation on top.

I Did design A small Neapolitan WFO intendeer for home use, But in the current situation I can't realise it.
So I am considering the non AVPN choice of a electric Effeuno oven.

Here is a couple of my designs for the home oven I intended to install a gas burner in;
« Last Edit: January 24, 2015, 10:54:28 PM by Neopolitan »

Offline Tscarborough

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Re: A PHILOSOPHY OF PIZZA NAPOLETANISMO!
« Reply #2725 on: January 24, 2015, 11:48:56 PM »
The drawing is a work of art, the design as well.  It is hard to tell from the drawing, but I assume the gas blower is offset to one side and not centered in the oven?

Offline sub

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Re: A PHILOSOPHY OF PIZZA NAPOLETANISMO!
« Reply #2726 on: January 25, 2015, 04:49:44 AM »
The heating elements are hidden behind a metal sheet. Actually it is this top metallic sheet and resting on it (and hidden)are the heating elements. After your advice I am thinking about opening wholes so that the heat can escape easier through them.

That's a good idea, the metal sheet is blocking the radiations from the heating element, try to remove it completely if you can. (without damages of course)

The drawing is a work of art, the design as well.  It is hard to tell from the drawing, but I assume the gas blower is offset to one side and not centered in the oven?

Indeed, very beautiful !

For more info on the gas burner you can go to the Avanzini website, they are used by most of the well known oven builders.

Offline Korinthos

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Re: A PHILOSOPHY OF PIZZA NAPOLETANISMO!
« Reply #2727 on: January 25, 2015, 06:27:23 AM »
In Napels they would not consider pizza from a electric oven Alla Napoletana :angel:

It is not only the high heat but also the extreme short bake that defines the Neapolitan way, A unintiated cliëntele might not notice But why label it Neapolitan If it is something else?

There is also the option of gas operated Neapolitan ovens, no wood, vent and chimney soot Free, less firehazard and probaly less dificult to get a permit for.

The prof burners are expensive tough. But depending on gas versus wood price in Your area this could be a good infestment.

The design for the 90cm WFO in Greece is my own, At the time I Did not have A cleu and I did change the Original design of the oven by adding a floor on top of the One year old firebricks to 'lower' the dome wich was to high and lowered the oven entrance to Neapolitan specs.

It Will be enhanced by a fixed shelter and isolation, since the cob dome suffers from the strong rain in the winter, and Burns more efective with isolation on top.

I Did design A small Neapolitan WFO intendeer for home use, But in the current situation I can't realise it.
So I am considering the non AVPN choice of a electric Effeuno oven.

Here is a couple of my designs for the home oven I intended to install a gas burner in;

Good morning Case!

Your oven design looks so well thought as well as artistic! Your sketches are awesome! When I entertained the idea to build my own oven at home I found the task daunting. Your oven design speaks by itself for the great experience and artistry its designer has. The oven you build in Greece sounds like a serious undertaking incorporating traditional norms in it.

I thank you for the expert advice you provide me concerning the gas oven. I will ask a few questions next week based on your suggestions. (Having finished writing my comments below, I came back here to ask what is the difference of baking in a gas oven as opposed to an electric oven, from the point of view of tradition and authenticity).

I can understand your comments
“In Napels they would not consider pizza from a electric oven Alla Napoletana  ”

I posed the same question to myself in the process of thinking about an oven for Pizza Napoletana. Perhaps a novice like me can easier be converted to new ideas than experienced artisans and expert professionals. I have no history and no commitment to the traditional way of baking a Neapolitan pizza, so it is easier for me to consider seriously the alternatives.

Please allow me to make my clarifications to your statement
“It is not only the high heat but also the extreme short bake that defines the Neapolitan way, A unintiated cliëntele might not notice But why label it Neapolitan If it is something else?”

I neglected to write that the oven produces high heat. Really high heat. Further, I adhere to tradition in most ways of life such as our traditional family and respect traditional societal values, but in business I allow myself to question the methods in search for a more productive or efficient one. Having read enough from the present topic of Mr. Omid and other posts in other threads I respect immensely the dedication and professionalism people show to recreate the true or traditional Pizza Napoletana. The wood fired oven is the traditional way to bake it and thus Neapolitans bake it in this way.

However, Omid asked how is it that we relate to the objects. He also stated about  Authenticity: "Authenticity" means owning up to the situation [the tradition] you are in, confronting the situation, and doing what needs to be done. It is responsiveness to the unique situation you are in.. ,
Well, the owner of the company who sells the electric Neapolitan ovens is also Neapolitan (electric oven maestro) and his company is based in Napoli. The pizzas that I saw baked on this oven were made by pizzaiulo Mauricio, a true and experienced Neapolitan. The compliments given by Italian people after tasting this pizza Napoletana were coming from discerning persons.

I believe that the correct electric pizza oven can create the needed baking conditions to bake a pizza Napoletana, with the exception of the taste of charcoal or smoke. (To acquire the smell of smoke perhaps It can be done, but I would need to try it to verify it – if there are suggestions I would be very happy to hear them).   To “own up to my situation”- Omid-  and within the bounds of authenticity I hope to create the same baking affects with an electrical oven, respecting the traditional way of preparing the dough and creating the thin center, the soft texture and raised cornicione (bombato) .
 
I will not buy mozzarella cheese from Italy, because it is too expensive in the country I work. I will make this public to my clients. I will buy Italian canned tomatos but not San Marzano.  The later are not available here but I would not buy them anyway because they are much more expensive than other canned good Italian tomatos who do not posses the marketing of a DOP brand (I wonder what kind of expert can discern the taste differences created by the lava of Vesuvius and identify the crushed San Marzano tomatos from among 3 or 4 others).   

Respecting Authenticity, I would name a pizza from an electric oven "Napoletana" because I believe that it possesses the authentic properties (except charcoal or smoke taste) of a traditional Pizza Napoletana. The means of baking is different, but the effects the same (except smell of smoke).

I attach the video of a show from RAI 3, the national Italian TV channel which shows the IZZO electric oven that  I plan to buy. I draw your attention to the 13:00 minute onward where you can see the outcome of the oven.

Electric Oven baking Pizza Napoletana on RAI 3
http://www.izzoforni.it/dettaglioNews.php?id=11

Today there are elections in Greece where the "traditional" New Democracy government party is expected to be unseated by the "radical" leftist Syriza party. Perhaps the thesis-antithesis-synthesis dialectic method taught by Zeno, Plato and others, including Friedrich Hegel and Immanuel Kant applies to politics as well as to pizza making  ;D

Have a good Sunday!
Korinthos
« Last Edit: January 25, 2015, 06:48:05 AM by Korinthos »

Offline Korinthos

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Re: A PHILOSOPHY OF PIZZA NAPOLETANISMO!
« Reply #2728 on: January 25, 2015, 06:32:13 AM »
That's a good idea, the metal sheet is blocking the radiations from the heating element, try to remove it completely if you can. (without damages of course)

I will try to do it. I have asked to be removed they answered that it holds the heating elements from falling. I will pursue this further. Thank you Mr. Sub.
« Last Edit: January 25, 2015, 06:46:25 AM by Korinthos »

Offline Neopolitan

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Re: A PHILOSOPHY OF PIZZA NAPOLETANISMO!
« Reply #2729 on: January 25, 2015, 09:32:41 AM »
Thnx for the compliments on my oven designs, I am a autodidact artist that stopped his academic industrial design study after a dissapointed academic expirience. Later I had a Nice  income as a classic yacht illustrator untill the twin towers imploded as Did my career. That is why I started to work in restaurants.

The design of the cob oven build in Greece is very different, Did not have the Neoplitan virus yet ;D

Sadly I can't reproduce a good picture the Originals drawings they are quiet Large and I can only take pictures with my IPad :-\

Here is the latest 1:1 scale design of the 75cm heart and dome interior.
Oops, that is my pet from Greece ;D (on a former 70cm design with 10cm deep steel arch/entrance)

And again;
« Last Edit: January 25, 2015, 09:39:13 AM by Neopolitan »


Offline Neopolitan

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Re: A PHILOSOPHY OF PIZZA NAPOLETANISMO!
« Reply #2730 on: January 25, 2015, 09:50:59 AM »
Thnx for the compliment and that burner in the biscotto floor design, Sub!

I Did have A  simmilar design But for a small 65cm design with the burner tube on the left.

Offline Angle

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Re: A PHILOSOPHY OF PIZZA NAPOLETANISMO!
« Reply #2731 on: January 27, 2015, 03:36:40 AM »
Hi Pizza Napoletana, love your huge depth of knowledge on the subject, it's very informative and helps to fill in a few more pieces of the quite massive subject.  Just wondering if you (or others) know the manufacturer of the old blue "Lina" fork mixer? I have seen others but am not sure who supplies them.

cheers - an keep up the fantastic posts! :chef:
It keeps you thinking!

Offline sub

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Re: A PHILOSOPHY OF PIZZA NAPOLETANISMO!
« Reply #2732 on: January 27, 2015, 05:34:14 AM »
It's Meripan  ;)