Author Topic: The Entire Pizza Making Process I use at the Garage  (Read 47082 times)

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Online TXCraig1

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Re: The Entire Pizza Making Process I use at the Garage
« Reply #100 on: October 16, 2012, 08:57:52 PM »
You should have some flavor from the acetic and lactic acids, but there are all sorts of other volatile compounds produced that contribute to the flavor from creamy to sharp. Fermenting in the 60's, you probably get more of the creamy flavors. I find it to be a nice balance to the acids - both flavors you won't get with baker's yeast.

One of the reasons why you don't have a lot of that raw flour flavor is from the long ferment. The enzymes have a long time to work on the starch. I greatly prefer this to the raw flour flavor. You can taste it in real time as you make the dough. Try a little right out of the mixer, again when you ball, and finally just before baking, and you can really taste distinct differences and the dough progresses.

The pizza you grew up with probably also had sugar, oil of some sort, and dough conditioners. It's going to taste different. Corn meal on the bottom would really change the flavor as well.
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Offline Home_Deck

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Re: The Entire Pizza Making Process I use at the Garage
« Reply #101 on: October 17, 2012, 08:22:17 AM »
I been reading some of your post about moister levels and oven temps.  With lower temp ovens, you would use less hydration?  I.e 62% @ 900, 700, 500 ?  You end up with a longer cook time?  You talked about being concerned about cooking with 60% @ 900, I believe it was those numbers.

Online TXCraig1

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Re: The Entire Pizza Making Process I use at the Garage
« Reply #102 on: October 17, 2012, 09:38:40 AM »
I don't think there is an answer to that question. I've been baking recently at 60% with an oven as hot as ever and been generally happy with the results. I know people baking a similar style going over 70% and others in the mid 50's.  When I was baking at 750F in my grill I think I was running at about 64%, but that was with KAAP not Caputo - your choice of flour also makes a difference. The style also inherently changes with the temperature as discussed here: http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,21446.0.html. At 700F and 500F, you are no longer making textbook NP, so you may want a different hydration, higher or lower, (and a different flour) depending on what you are trying to achieve.

I believe there are too many variables to set a hard and fast rule.
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Offline Serpentelli

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Re: The Entire Pizza Making Process I use at the Garage
« Reply #103 on: October 20, 2012, 08:55:01 AM »
Craig,

I made my second batch of starter-based (Camaldoli) dough yesterday using your specs. Previously I posted about my "failure" using a poolish-based dough using Varasano's recipe. Turns out TEMPERATURE of the ferment was the problem there. So I have my bulk dough fermenting at a nice 68 degrees right now and will follow your recs over the next 24 hours as well.

But as I was following your technique I noticed that there was a BIG difference in percentages of starter between you and Varasano. I think its 1.3% (You) vs 9% (Varasano). Can you tell me how you arrived at the 1.3%? And what your opinion is regarding higher vs. lower percentages of starter in your dough?

Thanks,

John

Online TXCraig1

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Re: The Entire Pizza Making Process I use at the Garage
« Reply #104 on: October 20, 2012, 09:48:17 AM »
Craig,

I made my second batch of starter-based (Camaldoli) dough yesterday using your specs. Previously I posted about my "failure" using a poolish-based dough using Varasano's recipe. Turns out TEMPERATURE of the ferment was the problem there. So I have my bulk dough fermenting at a nice 68 degrees right now and will follow your recs over the next 24 hours as well.

But as I was following your technique I noticed that there was a BIG difference in percentages of starter between you and Varasano. I think its 1.3% (You) vs 9% (Varasano). Can you tell me how you arrived at the 1.3%? And what your opinion is regarding higher vs. lower percentages of starter in your dough?

Thanks,

John



John, I got there by trial and error working to find the % that would give me the fermentation I wanted at 48 hours at 64Fish. I believe my number is about as low as you will see here. Ive been down as low as 1.1% in the hottest summer months. I didnt invent this method. In fact, member pizzanapoletana who is one of the most knowledgeable on the subject of pizza Napoletana (NP) is an advocate of tiny amounts of yeast and long, room temperature (RT = mid-60s) fermentation.

Jeff Varasano cold fermented (refrigerator) which necessitated much higher levels of yeast. I believe he also added some commercial yeast. Without the commercial yeast, he probably would have needed to be even higher with the culture maybe as high as 20%. Im not a fan of cold fermentation with sourdough (SD). I dont think it develops flavor as well as RT, and I dont think the texture and tenderness of the finished pies compare.  As Peter pointed out recently here: http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,21598.msg218197.html#msg218197, Jeff came to appreciate small starter quantities as well. I dont know what he does today in his restaurant.

One thing to note, I like most on this forum, express all my ingredients as a % of the flour. When pizzanapoletana, writes, he expresses ingredients as a % of the water the way they would in Naples.  For example, my 1.3% of the flour weight, given 62.5% hydration would become 1.3/62.5 = 2.1% of the water weight.  Its the same amount of yeast, but the calculation is based on a different reference point water vs. flour. When reading formulas on this forum particularly NP formulas we need to take care to be sure we understand which method is being used.

CL
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Offline Serpentelli

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Re: The Entire Pizza Making Process I use at the Garage
« Reply #105 on: October 20, 2012, 11:42:06 PM »
Craig,

To ball the dough after the bulk ferment --- bench flour or no? I used just enough flour to get nice dough balls with tight skins. Less than 0.0001% of original flour amount. I did not see that discussed in your technique post.


John

Online TXCraig1

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Re: The Entire Pizza Making Process I use at the Garage
« Reply #106 on: October 20, 2012, 11:52:02 PM »
Craig,

To ball the dough after the bulk ferment --- bench flour or no? I used just enough flour to get nice dough balls with tight skins. Less than 0.0001% of original flour amount. I did not see that discussed in your technique post.


John

Use as much as you need.
I love pigs. They convert vegetables into bacon.

Offline Jackitup

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Re: The Entire Pizza Making Process I use at the Garage
« Reply #107 on: October 20, 2012, 11:53:05 PM »
speaking for myself, I just use a lightly oiled counter vs a bunch of flour. Changes nothing and use flour during the final process before going onto the peel and into the oven. I do the same for bread, NY style etc.
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Online TXCraig1

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Re: The Entire Pizza Making Process I use at the Garage
« Reply #108 on: October 20, 2012, 11:58:57 PM »
There is no sign of the bench flour 24 hours later.

I'm not saying you need to cake it on or anything. It doesn't take very much, but don't stress over using a little.
I love pigs. They convert vegetables into bacon.

Offline Serpentelli

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Re: The Entire Pizza Making Process I use at the Garage
« Reply #109 on: October 21, 2012, 09:13:05 AM »
OK,

One last dough question. This morning I realized I didn't add Ice to my cooler last night. Too much vino....... So the dough is a bit "active" this morning! But no fire until 7 pm!! I put more ice in the cooler. Do I need to re-ball? Or just give it a go?

John


Offline Jet_deck

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Re: The Entire Pizza Making Process I use at the Garage
« Reply #110 on: October 21, 2012, 09:29:30 AM »

More ice!  NO REBALL!
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Online TXCraig1

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Re: The Entire Pizza Making Process I use at the Garage
« Reply #111 on: October 21, 2012, 09:44:02 AM »
If it was me, I would not reball. I'd stick them into the fridge and take them out at least 2 hours before baking.
I love pigs. They convert vegetables into bacon.

Offline Serpentelli

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Re: The Entire Pizza Making Process I use at the Garage
« Reply #112 on: October 22, 2012, 01:20:52 PM »
Results of over-fermented Camaldoli starter.

I will be more fastidious next time, but very pleased with the dough overall!

Offline Serpentelli

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Re: The Entire Pizza Making Process I use at the Garage
« Reply #113 on: October 22, 2012, 01:23:24 PM »
And the other few:

Bacon Onion
Gruyere/Caramellized onions
Goat Cheese/Chicken/Tomato/Pesto

Online TXCraig1

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Re: The Entire Pizza Making Process I use at the Garage
« Reply #114 on: October 22, 2012, 03:02:59 PM »
Looking good! The leoparding, crumb, and undercarriage all look great.
I love pigs. They convert vegetables into bacon.

Offline Serpentelli

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Re: The Entire Pizza Making Process I use at the Garage
« Reply #115 on: October 22, 2012, 04:40:15 PM »
Craig,

Well thanks VERY much for your patient suggestions and guidance. The last minute suggestions on Sunday were especially welcome! I made a parallell batch of ADY dough (45 degree x 48 hour ferment) so as to be able to do a side-by-side comparison. There IS no comparison, IMO. Everything --- the rise while baking, the leoparding, the crumb, and the TASTE with the SD dough is phenomenal in comparison to the ADY dough. The pictures were uninspiring  so I left them out.

I am getting a 1 lb block of Cake Yeast this week. I figure don't knock it till you've tried it.

What's the SHORTEST time you ever done for a RT dough? I was thinking that in a pinch I could get to cooking state with a 75 degree x 24 hour ferment? Sometimes I just don't have the time on Thursday to plan for Sat/Sun......?

Online TXCraig1

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Re: The Entire Pizza Making Process I use at the Garage
« Reply #116 on: October 22, 2012, 05:14:11 PM »
I can't remember the last time I did meaningfully less than 48 hours.
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Re: The Entire Pizza Making Process I use at the Garage
« Reply #117 on: October 25, 2012, 12:57:01 PM »
I've been using 60%HR lately and am really starting to like it. I find that it needs to raise more (in size - not necessarily more time) than 62.5%. Maybe 15% more size. I doubt even more would hurt and may even help.
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Offline Everlast

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Re: The Entire Pizza Making Process I use at the Garage
« Reply #118 on: December 07, 2012, 01:32:30 PM »
Craig,

Thanks for this meticulous wealth of information. I used your dough formulation and workflow as much as time allowed (100% Caputo, 62.5% water, 1.3% Ischia starter, 3% salt / 24 hours bulk at 65F, 20 hours balled at 65F, 2-3 hours room temp which was around 71F) to make some of my most phenomenal pies yet. The dough was just killer. I now understand what you mean about there not being a lot of raw flour flavor. There's a lightness to it that, if you don't pay attention, you can eat like 10 slices before fulling full.

Ideally, I'd like to get 24 hours bulk at 65F, then 24 hours balled at 65F. I think I also could have used more like 3-4 hours at 71 degrees / room temp.

I've got some dough in my dough cooler (old wine fridge set to 65F) right now but only have 44 hours before bake time. Would you say the 24 hours balled is more important than a full 24 hours bulk? I'm thinking 17 hours bulk, 24 hours balled, and 3 hours room temp. Also, would more time at 65F yield more formation of gluten or is it simply to achieve the maximum sourdough flavor?

Damian


Pics from last night's bake:

Margherita with Calabrian chili oil & underside
Brussel sprouts, pancetta, olive oil, sliced garlic, pecorino romano, buffalo mozzarella
« Last Edit: December 07, 2012, 01:34:30 PM by Everlast »

Online TXCraig1

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Re: The Entire Pizza Making Process I use at the Garage
« Reply #119 on: December 07, 2012, 02:27:43 PM »
Would you say the 24 hours balled is more important than a full 24 hours bulk? I'm thinking 17 hours bulk, 24 hours balled, and 3 hours room temp. Also, would more time at 65F yield more formation of gluten or is it simply to achieve the maximum sourdough flavor?

Those look awesome all around and upside down!

There is nothing magic about 48 hours. It just makes for convenient timing for me. I don't think a couple hours either way are going to have a meaningful impact on flavor or gluten development. Much more important is the rise. If you get there a little faster, it should be fine - just get there. It won't work well to cut it off early if the rise isn't there.

I also don't think it will make much difference if you cut the bulk or the ball - particularly if it is only a few hours. I would say you need at least 12 hours in balls. The longer in balls, the easier it will be to open, AOTBE. I think your plan looks good. Keep and eye on it to be sure your don't need to warm it up sooner than 3 hours.

CL

I love pigs. They convert vegetables into bacon.


 

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