Author Topic: The Entire Pizza Making Process I use at the Garage  (Read 40593 times)

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Offline TXCraig1

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Re: The Entire Pizza Making Process I use at the Garage
« Reply #80 on: October 14, 2012, 09:58:20 AM »
Hi, can you help explain the math to make sure I am doing this right and culture mix, I know it sounds dumb.    My Culture is 54% hydration, are you figuring in the H2o of the culture as part of the 2%?  Also wondering if you start with a total weight and work backwards?  Might be easier if you show me a expample of the math.

275 grams of flour
2% culture = 5.5 grams (includes water @ 54 % hydration)
etc
etc..

I made a test batch with only few grams of culture and does not look like its doing much so far..  still have 24hrs at 65 degrees..

thanks
Rene


Rene, I donít include the water and flour in the culture in the hydration calculation. I keep my culture at about 80% hydration, but I do this by eye. I donít measure when I feed it. As such , it kicks up the formula hydration by a little less than 1%.  This works well because I use such a low and narrow range of starter % (1.1-1.5%). If I was using a lot of starter or changing from small to large % and vice versa, I would need to include the starter in the formula calculation.

5.5g culture is correct in your example above. Did you completely dissolve the culture into the water? I donít like to rely on the mixing process to evenly distribute the culture with such small quantities.

I see very little rise in the first 24 hours. This is what I want. I just want to see the beginnings of activity when I ball the dough. In the last 12 hours, Iíll watch the dough to make sure it is progressing as expected. It can be gently warmed or cooled if necessary.

Here is the spreadsheet I use to calculate my quantities: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0AuvMQbzk5INUdE1mVkMyOEY2My1sc1phRTJBSmo5TVE#gid=0

Here is how I make my dough if you have not seen it:  http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,20477.msg202047.html#msg202047

Here is the whole process: http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,20479.msg202069.html#msg202069

Did this help?

CL
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Offline Jet_deck

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Re: The Entire Pizza Making Process I use at the Garage
« Reply #81 on: October 14, 2012, 10:01:59 AM »
...   My Culture is 54% hydration, are you figuring in the H2o of the culture as part of the 2%? 
How did you figure that?  For example if you feed 50g of flour 50g of water, that is considered 100% hydration.  54% just seems low, like it would be dough rather than anything remotely liquid.  But yours may be entirely different than mine.
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Offline Home_Deck

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Re: The Entire Pizza Making Process I use at the Garage
« Reply #82 on: October 14, 2012, 10:20:38 AM »
Hi, now I am more confused..    I keep my culture in the refrigerator, pull it out and feed it once a week.  

My culture was dry - I activated it (first feeding) with 3/4c water and 1c flour.  Now all feedings are 1c flour and 3/4c water.  it's about like pancake batter when from the fridge.  So the 2% in weight is my culture (pancake batter), maybe a few tsp added?  

Anytime in the past I would use about 1c of culture to about 350 grams of flour and in about 6-8 hrs got two rises.  Could use more flavor, hoping the long slow fermentation process adds more flavor.  

Am I doing this right?

thanks for the spreadsheet looking at it now.. that will help.. just need to make sure I am doing the culture right!

Rene, I donít include the water and flour in the culture in the hydration calculation. I keep my culture at about 80% hydration, but I do this by eye. I donít measure when I feed it. As such , it kicks up the formula hydration by a little less than 1%.  This works well because I use such a low and narrow range of starter % (1.1-1.5%). If I was using a lot of starter or changing from small to large % and vice versa, I would need to include the starter in the formula calculation.

5.5g culture is correct in your example above. Did you completely dissolve the culture into the water? I donít like to rely on the mixing process to evenly distribute the culture with such small quantities.

I see very little rise in the first 24 hours. This is what I want. I just want to see the beginnings of activity when I ball the dough. In the last 12 hours, Iíll watch the dough to make sure it is progressing as expected. It can be gently warmed or cooled if necessary.

Here is the spreadsheet I use to calculate my quantities: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0AuvMQbzk5INUdE1mVkMyOEY2My1sc1phRTJBSmo5TVE#gid=0

Here is how I make my dough if you have not seen it:  http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,20477.msg202047.html#msg202047

Here is the whole process: http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,20479.msg202069.html#msg202069

Did this help?

CL
« Last Edit: October 14, 2012, 10:25:47 AM by Home_Deck »

Offline Home_Deck

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Re: The Entire Pizza Making Process I use at the Garage
« Reply #83 on: October 14, 2012, 10:24:07 AM »
My culture I have right now is mixed per-instructions.  My old mix I did alter the mix slightly.  It said I believe 54% Hyd.. with the 1c flour and 3/4c water.  My old book I gave to my mom had the percentage, cant find the percentage yet in the new one.  Got my cultures from sourdough's international, inc Idaho..
How did you figure that?  For example if you feed 50g of flour 50g of water, that is considered 100% hydration.  54% just seems low, like it would be dough rather than anything remotely liquid.  But yours may be entirely different than mine.

Offline Jet_deck

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Re: The Entire Pizza Making Process I use at the Garage
« Reply #84 on: October 14, 2012, 11:22:49 AM »
I got close to 70% hyd. for your example.  I'll let one of the talented mathmeticians here, confirm that.
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Offline Home_Deck

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Re: The Entire Pizza Making Process I use at the Garage
« Reply #85 on: October 14, 2012, 11:30:54 AM »
Are you using live culture from the fridge, or you using dry culture then using it?

Reason I ask, when I followed the recipe, the dough was very dry, too dry to get it to form a ball in the mixer.  I had to add maybe a tablespoon of water to get it to form a ball, so I do not know where the hydration is at, kneading is off from your recipe being I was not able to get it to ball.  Used my Italian 00 flour, might have to go back to lesser expensive flour until I get this figured out.  Although, the different flours behave differently.

My oven is not near what you use, I have a baker pride counter model.  Still learning on how to get the most out of it.

Rene, I donít include the water and flour in the culture in the hydration calculation. I keep my culture at about 80% hydration, but I do this by eye. I donít measure when I feed it. As such , it kicks up the formula hydration by a little less than 1%.  This works well because I use such a low and narrow range of starter % (1.1-1.5%). If I was using a lot of starter or changing from small to large % and vice versa, I would need to include the starter in the formula calculation.

5.5g culture is correct in your example above. Did you completely dissolve the culture into the water? I donít like to rely on the mixing process to evenly distribute the culture with such small quantities.

I see very little rise in the first 24 hours. This is what I want. I just want to see the beginnings of activity when I ball the dough. In the last 12 hours, Iíll watch the dough to make sure it is progressing as expected. It can be gently warmed or cooled if necessary.

Here is the spreadsheet I use to calculate my quantities: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0AuvMQbzk5INUdE1mVkMyOEY2My1sc1phRTJBSmo5TVE#gid=0

Here is how I make my dough if you have not seen it:  http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,20477.msg202047.html#msg202047

Here is the whole process: http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,20479.msg202069.html#msg202069

Did this help?

CL
« Last Edit: October 14, 2012, 12:46:34 PM by Home_Deck »

Offline Home_Deck

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Re: The Entire Pizza Making Process I use at the Garage
« Reply #86 on: October 14, 2012, 12:52:09 PM »
So you mix the culture into the water salt solution it appears..  I never tired that, always thought salt and culture should avoid contact as long as possible.  Interesting thanks for helping me get this figured out.  Still wonder why my mix did not ball up with the 62% water.

Offline TXCraig1

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Re: The Entire Pizza Making Process I use at the Garage
« Reply #87 on: October 14, 2012, 01:19:26 PM »
Are you using live culture from the fridge, or you using dry culture then using it?

Reason I ask, when I followed the recipe, the dough was very dry, too dry to get it to form a ball in the mixer.  I had to add maybe a tablespoon of water to get it to form a ball, so I do not know where the hydration is at, kneading is off from your recipe being I was not able to get it to ball.  Used my Italian 00 flour, might have to go back to lesser expensive flour until I get this figured out.  Although, the different flours behave differently.

My oven is not near what you use, I have a baker pride counter model.  Still learning on how to get the most out of it.


The culture is wet, and most importantly, fully active. I time the feeding so that the activity peaks right about when I need it. It doesnít have to be perfect, but the closer you get to the same level of activity each time, the more predictable your results.

If you followed my recipe, your dough should be relatively soft and still a little tacky after your initial mixing. You should have no problem forming a ball regardless of what flour you use. For your oven, you may get better results with malted AP flour such as KAAP than an unmalted 00. What sort of mixer are you using? It might be difficult to make a dough in a stand mixer with only 275g of flour. If you are only going to use 275g flour, your best bet may be to simply mix by hand. A food processor would also work, but I canít give you any guidance on that other than to be sure you donít overdo it.

For 275g flour and 2% culture as you noted, you would, dissolve 8.3g salt (3%) in 171.9g water (62.5%). Then dissolve in 5.5g (2%) culture. To that, you would mix in your 275g flour. Your total formula would yield 461g of dough.
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Offline Home_Deck

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Re: The Entire Pizza Making Process I use at the Garage
« Reply #88 on: October 14, 2012, 02:41:09 PM »
Thanks for the help.  I believe I got it now :) 

I followed the mix recipe (62%) and the flour never balled up.  Looked like very dry pie dough!  I don't expect this first 00 batch to turn out now, as I did not incorporate the culture into the water like you did.  I use a kitchen aid mixer for my dough.  I have a cuisinart food processor, never made dough with it.  Spins very fast.....

What is high malted flour?  And what is KAAP?  Very high gluten flour?  Will check King Arthur flour.  Can one add malt additive, use to have some, but I am sure my malt is bad.  I been incorporating lighter flours into my dough mix, maybe I been going into the wrong direction?  Might explain why my crust come out whiter then expected.

Why is the higher malt better? because of the lower temps?  My oven goes to 650, I would have to check, but I would guess with heating on, the ceramic stone probably gets 700-750 before it kicks off.
The culture is wet, and most importantly, fully active. I time the feeding so that the activity peaks right about when I need it. It doesnít have to be perfect, but the closer you get to the same level of activity each time, the more predictable your results.

If you followed my recipe, your dough should be relatively soft and still a little tacky after your initial mixing. You should have no problem forming a ball regardless of what flour you use. For your oven, you may get better results with malted AP flour such as KAAP than an unmalted 00. What sort of mixer are you using? It might be difficult to make a dough in a stand mixer with only 275g of flour. If you are only going to use 275g flour, your best bet may be to simply mix by hand. A food processor would also work, but I canít give you any guidance on that other than to be sure you donít overdo it.

For 275g flour and 2% culture as you noted, you would, dissolve 8.3g salt (3%) in 171.9g water (62.5%). Then dissolve in 5.5g (2%) culture. To that, you would mix in your 275g flour. Your total formula would yield 461g of dough.


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Offline Jet_deck

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Re: The Entire Pizza Making Process I use at the Garage
« Reply #90 on: October 14, 2012, 02:52:11 PM »
..  I never tired that, always thought salt and culture should avoid contact as long as possible. 

Craig is counting on the fact that the salt will indeed slow down the fermentation process that he uses.  Not kill the starter just slow it down.
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Offline TXCraig1

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Re: The Entire Pizza Making Process I use at the Garage
« Reply #91 on: October 14, 2012, 02:55:25 PM »
What is high malted flour?  And what is KAAP?  Very high gluten flour?  Will check King Arthur flour.  Can one add malt additive, use to have some, but I am sure my malt is bad.  I been incorporating lighter flours into my dough mix, maybe I been going into the wrong direction?  Might explain why my crust come out whiter then expected.

Why is the higher malt better? because of the lower temps?  My oven goes to 650, I would have to check, but I would guess with heating on, the ceramic stone probably gets 700-750 before it kicks off.

Malting is letting the grain germinate and then drying before grinding to flour. This activates enzymes that convert starch to sugar. Malted flour will have more sugar and brown more at lower temperatures. Adding malt would not be the same thing. You can add some (~1%+/-) sugar to dough to help browning. KAAP like almost all four you will find in your grocery store is malted. I'm not one who believes higher protein flour makes better pizza - not Neapolitan anyway. For baking at lower temps like I had in my BBQ mod (~750F), I prefer KAAP.
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Offline Home_Deck

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Re: The Entire Pizza Making Process I use at the Garage
« Reply #92 on: October 14, 2012, 02:57:18 PM »
thanks for all your help, maybe after all these years... I will get pizza closer to what  I am looking for - probably not until I go high temp.
.......
thanks for the link..

currently I been using Pillsbury All purpose flour, king Arther AP is that much more different? 

Offline TXCraig1

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Re: The Entire Pizza Making Process I use at the Garage
« Reply #93 on: October 14, 2012, 02:57:54 PM »
So you mix the culture into the water salt solution it appears..  I never tired that, always thought salt and culture should avoid contact as long as possible.  Interesting thanks for helping me get this figured out.  Still wonder why my mix did not ball up with the 62% water.

There is evidence that salt-stressing the yeast is not detrimental and actually beneficial, but that is not why I do it. I do it because I want to be 100% sure both the salt and culture are perfectly evenly distributed. This is also how they have done it in Naples forever, and I figure they know a thing or two about pizza.  ;D
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Offline TXCraig1

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Re: The Entire Pizza Making Process I use at the Garage
« Reply #94 on: October 14, 2012, 02:58:48 PM »

currently I been using Pillsbury All purpose flour, king Arther AP is that much more different? 


Probably not.
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Offline Home_Deck

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Re: The Entire Pizza Making Process I use at the Garage
« Reply #95 on: October 14, 2012, 03:05:09 PM »
There is evidence that salt-stressing the yeast is not detrimental and actually beneficial, but that is not why I do it. I do it because I want to be 100% sure both the salt and culture are perfectly evenly distributed. This is also how they have done it in Naples forever, and I figure they know a thing or two about pizza.  ;D

very interesting..

Offline TXCraig1

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Re: The Entire Pizza Making Process I use at the Garage
« Reply #96 on: October 14, 2012, 03:08:10 PM »
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Offline Home_Deck

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Re: The Entire Pizza Making Process I use at the Garage
« Reply #97 on: October 16, 2012, 09:40:44 AM »
Did not turn out totally bad, got pretty good rise out of the dough w/o adding the culture into the water.   Being I had to eyeball the water, not sure where hydration is at.  My oven only would go to 700, used 00 flour.  It does have a very nice lightness to the dough.  I wish I had more culture flavor to the bread, how can you get more flavor from the culture, slow the rising down more?  I purchased some Italian tomato sauce added a little sugar, but it has a weird flavor.  Reminds me of ravioli sauce in the can?

Will try the KAAP flour next time
Incorporate culture into water
Might add little sugar to get more browning

« Last Edit: October 16, 2012, 09:47:33 AM by Home_Deck »

Offline TXCraig1

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Re: The Entire Pizza Making Process I use at the Garage
« Reply #98 on: October 16, 2012, 10:10:29 AM »
Did not turn out totally bad, got pretty good rise out of the dough w/o adding the culture into the water.   Being I had to eyeball the water, not sure where hydration is at.  My oven only would go to 700, used 00 flour.  It does have a very nice lightness to the dough.  I wish I had more culture flavor to the bread, how can you get more flavor from the culture, slow the rising down more?  I purchased some Italian tomato sauce added a little sugar, but it has a weird flavor.  Reminds me of ravioli sauce in the can?


More time will get you more "culture flavor" by which I'm guessing you mean a more sour flavor - that is assuming your culture will produce such flavors. I did a 60 hour ferment a few months ago that was too sour for my taste.

I don't think you want to use 'tomato sauce.' Look at the ingredients, it probably has all sorts of things in it. Try 'whole peeled tomatoes' and run them through food mill or crush them by hand. You can also use a stick blender, but be careful not to suck a lot of air into the tomato. I like Cento Italian in the 35oz can, but there are plenty of good alternatives.

It will take you in a totally different direction, so maybe not somethign to try until you get this method down, but here is a different method to get more of the sour/LAB flavors:http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,14627.0.html 
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Offline Home_Deck

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Re: The Entire Pizza Making Process I use at the Garage
« Reply #99 on: October 16, 2012, 12:16:09 PM »
More time will get you more "culture flavor" by which I'm guessing you mean a more sour flavor - that is assuming your culture will produce such flavors. I did a 60 hour ferment a few months ago that was too sour for my taste.

I don't think you want to use 'tomato sauce.' Look at the ingredients, it probably has all sorts of things in it. Try 'whole peeled tomatoes' and run them through food mill or crush them by hand. You can also use a stick blender, but be careful not to suck a lot of air into the tomato. I like Cento Italian in the 35oz can, but there are plenty of good alternatives.

It will take you in a totally different direction, so maybe not somethign to try until you get this method down, but here is a different method to get more of the sour/LAB flavors:http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,14627.0.html 


Ok, I will try whole peeled tomatoes next time.   I never tired that..

The pizza has a touch of a bite, wondering if that's the acidic from the dough?  I do like the dough flavor.

Not sure what I am looking for in dough flavor.  Maybe its a taste from the local pizzeria that I grew up tasting.  More of a flour dough taste?  Corn meal on the peal, additive to the dough, durum flour or meal, any idea?


 

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