Author Topic: Sourdough starter quantity predictive model  (Read 62521 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Online TXCraig1

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 17689
  • Location: Houston, TX
    • Craig's Neapolitan Garage
Re: Sourdough starter quantity predictive model
« Reply #175 on: December 05, 2014, 07:00:57 PM »
I cleaned it up. It looks OK.
"We make great pizza, with sourdough when we can, commercial yeast when we must, but always great pizza."
Craig's Neapolitan Garage


Online mitchjg

  • Supporting Member
  • *
  • Posts: 2862
  • Location: Oakland, CA
Re: Sourdough starter quantity predictive model
« Reply #176 on: December 05, 2014, 07:07:24 PM »
I cleaned it up. It looks OK.

Looks so neat and tidy now.   ;D  - Thanks
Mitch

“We hate math,” says 4 in 10 – a majority of Americans

Offline bxtzd3

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 81
  • Location: jim thorpe
  • I Love Pizza!
Re: Sourdough starter quantity predictive model
« Reply #177 on: January 13, 2015, 11:21:22 AM »
ok so if i get from the spreadsheet i need, lets say 10% starter. does this mean to reduce my 1700g flour by 170g to accommodate the starter? or leave it as is.

Offline jsaras

  • Supporting Member
  • *
  • Posts: 1376
  • Location: Northridge, CA
Sourdough starter quantity predictive model
« Reply #178 on: January 13, 2015, 11:55:04 AM »
No.  Firstly, what is the hydration of your starter?  What is the desired overall hydration of your formula?  The preferment calculator on the website will get you there.  The "tricky" part is paying attention to the "preferment's percentage of water" i.e., it's NOT the same thing as hydration as expressed in bakers percentages.
« Last Edit: January 13, 2015, 11:57:14 AM by jsaras »
Things have never been more like today than they are right now.

Online TXCraig1

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 17689
  • Location: Houston, TX
    • Craig's Neapolitan Garage
Re: Sourdough starter quantity predictive model
« Reply #179 on: January 13, 2015, 12:13:36 PM »
ok so if i get from the spreadsheet i need, lets say 10% starter. does this mean to reduce my 1700g flour by 170g to accommodate the starter? or leave it as is.

It doesn't necessarily mean either. You would probably never take out the starter weight in flour because a lot of the starter weight is water. Assuming your starter is more hydrated than your dough, and it almost always is, the more starter you add, the more hydrated your dough becomes. At what point does it matter is really up to you. Add the starter flour and water into your formula and calculate the hydration and decide if you need to make any adjustments. I typically don't worry about adjusting the formula flour. For me, adding 10% starter would only increases the formula hydration by 1% or so.

This might help: http://www.pizzamaking.com/preferment-calculator.html
"We make great pizza, with sourdough when we can, commercial yeast when we must, but always great pizza."
Craig's Neapolitan Garage

Offline IIFYMpizza

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 89
  • Location: Poland
  • I Love Pizza!
Re: Sourdough starter quantity predictive model
« Reply #180 on: June 27, 2015, 07:43:46 AM »
Ok, guys so i waited one week for my starter to mature and i belive its ready, as it becomes alive soon after i feed it ie doubles in size in about 2-3 hours. i calculated my starter % for RT rise- 70F in my house 34h. The spredsheet calls for 0.9%, now i start to ask myself if such a small amount of starter can make any difference compared to commercial yeast. Note that i use electric home oven as i wait for my p134h to arrive. What you guys think, any chance for better tasting pie?

Online David Esq.

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 1178
  • Location: New York
  • Making pizza since 2013
    • Eating With David
Re: Sourdough starter quantity predictive model
« Reply #181 on: June 27, 2015, 08:06:11 AM »
Taste is subjective. It should have more flavor. Whether better or not, you will have to tell us!  It may also be more digestible. But you can make great dough with or without sourdough for sure. To some of the benefits without it, use a poolish. But extra steps can be a burden.

Online TXCraig1

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 17689
  • Location: Houston, TX
    • Craig's Neapolitan Garage
Re: Sourdough starter quantity predictive model
« Reply #182 on: June 27, 2015, 08:55:20 AM »
The spredsheet calls for 0.9%, now i start to ask myself if such a small amount of starter can make any difference compared to commercial yeast.

You are inoculating your dough with lactic acid bacteria in addition to a different genus if yeast as compared to commercial yeast. There will be dozens, if not hundreds of byproducts of fermentation not present in commercial yeast dough. It will taste different. How different varies from person to person as does which you like better. As David noted above, taste is subjective.
"We make great pizza, with sourdough when we can, commercial yeast when we must, but always great pizza."
Craig's Neapolitan Garage

Offline IIFYMpizza

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 89
  • Location: Poland
  • I Love Pizza!
Re: Sourdough starter quantity predictive model
« Reply #183 on: August 04, 2015, 06:01:57 AM »

Hey guys,
just a quick question, i feed my starter every 24h and keep it on my kitchen counter. I used Craigs model to calculate my % for my dough and i noticed that if i use 1.3% for a 24h 72F rise the dough does not get airy as much as it does whenever i use CY, so i increased my SD up to 4% and and got better results but i am still far from texture i get with CY both with raw dough and finished product, baked pie seems much more dense, not so fluffy, tastewise its much better tho. Does it mean that my SD is still not active enough? Should i feed it more/less often? Should i change the flour i feed it with? I use caputo pizzeria to feed my starter. Thanks as always.
Jan


Offline vtsteve

  • Supporting Member
  • *
  • Posts: 549
  • Location: Vermont, USA
Re: Sourdough starter quantity predictive model
« Reply #184 on: August 04, 2015, 07:53:49 AM »
I would try a warmer bulk fermentation.
In grams we trust.

Offline tbear

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 41
  • Location: Bangkok
  • I Love Pizza!
Re: Sourdough starter quantity predictive model
« Reply #185 on: September 07, 2015, 10:33:19 AM »
Hi All,

I'm getting conflicting data from the prediction chart and the Prediction model: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0AuvMQbzk5INUdGZScWx6U2lYSEtZVkJuVGJiR19NaXc#gid=0
One shows under 3% and the other over 3%.

My schedule always me time to bulk ferment 24 hours at 65F, then ball for for 3 hours at 65F, then finish rising 5 hours at 77F (total 8 hours balled). Which chart is accurate and is this a good strategy for bulk/ball times/temps? I prefer 65F, because I keep my starter in same fridge at 65F and feed after mixing in the morning and then again before bed.

Thanks so much!

Online mitchjg

  • Supporting Member
  • *
  • Posts: 2862
  • Location: Oakland, CA
Re: Sourdough starter quantity predictive model
« Reply #186 on: September 07, 2015, 11:05:05 AM »
I do not think you are operating either one (although I do not know for certain what you did with the chart) quite right.  I get the same result with both (allowing for round-off).

1 The google docs spreadsheet.
You typed in 26@65 followed by 5@77.  This yielded 2.92%.  However, you state that you need 27 hours at 65 (24+3).  Using 27 instead will yield 2.66%.

2. I do not know what you did, but here is how to "operate" the chart.  Start at the bottom right, as you did, finding 77 degrees and 5 hours.  Move up to the 65 degree row (as you seem to have done).  Now you land on 12.  Add the 27 hours to the 12, yielding 39 hours.  Go left until you reach 39.  That lands you in the 2.5% column.

So, the spreadsheet yields 2.66% and the chart yields 2.5%.  Again, that difference is just roundoff between using a chart with nice whole hours all the way through and the spreadsheet which is using the underlying formula.

Regardless, please keep in mind that the chart is a "starting point."  Your results may vary depending on things like the starter you are actually using and how fresh it is when you start.
« Last Edit: September 07, 2015, 11:08:56 AM by mitchjg »
Mitch

“We hate math,” says 4 in 10 – a majority of Americans

Offline tbear

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 41
  • Location: Bangkok
  • I Love Pizza!
Re: Sourdough starter quantity predictive model
« Reply #187 on: September 07, 2015, 12:32:45 PM »
Ahh I see, I started counting the hours back from the 40% column. I'm a dummy  :-[ Thanks!

Online TXCraig1

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 17689
  • Location: Houston, TX
    • Craig's Neapolitan Garage
Re: Sourdough starter quantity predictive model
« Reply #188 on: September 07, 2015, 01:16:46 PM »
As Mitch noted, the table and the spreadsheet are consistent. Here is a quick refresher for people new to the table.

To calculate the predicted culture quantity for a 2-stage ferment at different temps:

1) Start where you want to finish. I this case, that's a second stage of 5 hours at 77F.
2) Go up the column to the row temperature of your intended first stage and make note of the time in that cell. In this case, it's the 65F row, so the time to note is 12 hours.
3) To that time, add how many hours you want at that temperature. In this case, we want 25 hours at 65F, so 12 hours + 25 hours = 37 hours.
4) Go left across the second stage temperature row until you find that time. In this case, we find 37 hours.
5) Finally, go straight up to the top of the table and you will find the predicted culture quantity. In this case, it's 3%.

In many cases, you will need to interpolate a little.
"We make great pizza, with sourdough when we can, commercial yeast when we must, but always great pizza."
Craig's Neapolitan Garage

Offline MightyPizzaOven

  • Vendor
  • *
  • Posts: 1299
  • Location: Houston, TX
    • MightyPizzaOven.com
Re: Sourdough starter quantity predictive model
« Reply #189 on: December 11, 2015, 10:00:18 PM »
I have been wanting to combine the Craig's spread sheet with a baker % calculator... finally I had some free time to do it... check it out, some may find it handy... Let me know if you have any comments, I will try to incorporate as time permit

http://www.mightypizzaoven.com/sourdough-bread-or-pizza-recipe-creator/

Offline texmex

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 701
  • Location: out in that West Texas Town.....
Re: Sourdough starter quantity predictive model
« Reply #190 on: December 19, 2015, 07:47:07 PM »
I have been wanting to combine the Craig's spread sheet with a baker % calculator... finally I had some free time to do it... check it out, some may find it handy... Let me know if you have any comments, I will try to incorporate as time permit

http://www.mightypizzaoven.com/sourdough-bread-or-pizza-recipe-creator/


This is freakin' awesome.  Thank you for creating this tool.
Reesa

Offline MightyPizzaOven

  • Vendor
  • *
  • Posts: 1299
  • Location: Houston, TX
    • MightyPizzaOven.com
Re: Sourdough starter quantity predictive model
« Reply #191 on: December 20, 2015, 06:13:04 AM »
This is freakin' awesome.  Thank you for creating this tool.

Thank you Reesa, I created a short version of this calculator for the experience users http://www.mightypizzaoven.com/sourdough-bread-or-pizza-recipe-creator-short-version/
« Last Edit: December 20, 2015, 06:34:18 AM by MightyPizzaOven »


Offline texmex

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 701
  • Location: out in that West Texas Town.....
Re: Sourdough starter quantity predictive model
« Reply #192 on: December 20, 2015, 10:15:56 AM »
Thank you Reesa, I created a short version of this calculator for the experience users http://www.mightypizzaoven.com/sourdough-bread-or-pizza-recipe-creator-short-version/

Using a tablet has prevented me from using the onsite calculation tools, so I  am very excited to see yours.  Thank you so much for taking the time to put these together.   I have bookmarked your site. 

Engineers, gotta love 'em!   :-* (my brother is an engineer, and we have the best conversations arguments) :-D
Reesa

Offline MightyPizzaOven

  • Vendor
  • *
  • Posts: 1299
  • Location: Houston, TX
    • MightyPizzaOven.com
Re: Sourdough starter quantity predictive model
« Reply #193 on: December 21, 2015, 04:30:07 PM »
Thanks Reesa, I have similar conversations with wife... ;D

Offline stealthie

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 13
  • Location: Sacramento, CA
Re: Sourdough starter quantity predictive model
« Reply #194 on: January 02, 2016, 03:43:34 PM »
Is there an ideal temperature to ferment a starter? I did a 48 hour at 62 degrees and thought it was amazing, but Ive read a few times that closer to 70 is prime?

Online TXCraig1

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 17689
  • Location: Houston, TX
    • Craig's Neapolitan Garage
Re: Sourdough starter quantity predictive model
« Reply #195 on: January 02, 2016, 03:49:31 PM »
Is there an ideal temperature to ferment a starter? I did a 48 hour at 62 degrees and thought it was amazing, but Ive read a few times that closer to 70 is prime?

More than one member, myself included, has had their best results in the 60-70F window with 64-65F seeming to be optimum. I'm about to post on why this may be. I'll link to it when I do.
"We make great pizza, with sourdough when we can, commercial yeast when we must, but always great pizza."
Craig's Neapolitan Garage

Online TXCraig1

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 17689
  • Location: Houston, TX
    • Craig's Neapolitan Garage
Re: Sourdough starter quantity predictive model
« Reply #196 on: January 02, 2016, 04:57:20 PM »
More than one member, myself included, has had their best results in the 60-70F window with 64-65F seeming to be optimum. I'm about to post on why this may be. I'll link to it when I do.

A science-based look at why room temperature is better: http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=41039.0
"We make great pizza, with sourdough when we can, commercial yeast when we must, but always great pizza."
Craig's Neapolitan Garage