Author Topic: What water temp do you think gives ny pizza dough a better flavor?  (Read 8382 times)

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Offline pythonic

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It will be interesting to see how this turns out.
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Offline Don K

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Re: What water temp do you think gives ny pizza dough a better flavor?
« Reply #1 on: August 14, 2012, 04:54:22 PM »
Why no options between? How hot is hot?
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Offline TXCraig1

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Re: What water temp do you think gives ny pizza dough a better flavor?
« Reply #2 on: August 14, 2012, 05:00:16 PM »
I use cold (40-45F) - not because it directly affects the flavor, but rather because it facilitates other things I do that affect the flavor.

CL
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Offline pythonic

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Re: What water temp do you think gives ny pizza dough a better flavor?
« Reply #3 on: August 14, 2012, 08:15:14 PM »
Why no options between? How hot is hot?

90-110F
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Offline kdefay

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Re: What water temp do you think gives ny pizza dough a better flavor?
« Reply #4 on: August 14, 2012, 10:21:12 PM »
I'm with Craig.  I can't tell you my temp, because I don't have an instant-read thermometer, but I do use 30% of my water weight as ice and use it as soon as it has melted enough to be mixed without tearing the dough up.  I'd wager I'm down around 40F or even a bit below.  If I use water that is much warmer, my 2-day cold fermented dough grows too fast. 

My personal opinion is that the water temp isn't a key direct factor in flavor, but it is a critical factor in yeast activity.  If you want slow refrigerated development, the dough has to be cool when it goes into the refrigerator to restrict its growth while it equalizes its temperature with the ambient temp inside the refrigerator. 

Two days ago I did a test where I made made my dough with only about 10-15% ice/water just to verify my process and it has turned out just as I had expected.  My dough balls have expanded quite a bit more in their proofing boxes than usual.  This is a direct result of the warmer dough temp in that early critical phase when it is placed in the fridge, but before it has equalized with the internal temp of the refrigerator.

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Offline The Dough Doctor

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Re: What water temp do you think gives ny pizza dough a better flavor?
« Reply #5 on: August 15, 2012, 09:06:36 AM »
I'm with Craig too, except I typically use 60 to 65F water temperature for my method of dough management.
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Offline slybarman

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Re: What water temp do you think gives ny pizza dough a better flavor?
« Reply #6 on: August 15, 2012, 09:40:23 AM »
I am a bit confused by some of this. Regardless of starting water temp, is everyone still shooting for a 80-85 degree final dough temp? When I do dough in my stand mixer, I start with 100 degree water to end up with 82 degree dough. Are y'all starting with cooler water because your mixing process imparts heat to the dough?

Offline TXCraig1

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Re: What water temp do you think gives ny pizza dough a better flavor?
« Reply #7 on: August 15, 2012, 10:18:31 AM »
I am a bit confused by some of this. Regardless of starting water temp, is everyone still shooting for a 80-85 degree final dough temp? When I do dough in my stand mixer, I start with 100 degree water to end up with 82 degree dough. Are y'all starting with cooler water because your mixing process imparts heat to the dough?

All mixing warms the dough to some extent you are putting energy into the dough, and it has to get warmer unless you are simultaneously applying some sort of external cooling. Some sorts of mixers create more friction than others. As such more of the energy is converted heat and less goes into working the dough, but all mixers (even hand mixing) create some amount of heat.

Your dough temperature is lower than your water temperature because the flour and the mixer itself are lower and they are cooling the combined dough. Notwithstanding, you mixing is still imparting some amount of heat to your dough. Im surprised that starting with 100F water you end up with 82F dough. Your mixing is very gentile and your flour is pretty cold?

I target a 70F final dough temperature. 
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Offline slybarman

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Re: What water temp do you think gives ny pizza dough a better flavor?
« Reply #8 on: August 15, 2012, 10:34:53 AM »
The flour and the mixer are in our kitchen that is kept at 74 degrees this time of year (AC going). It is a kitchen aid stand mixer that I run on setting 1 while blending the ingredients and then setting 2 while kneading the dough (typically for about 7 minutes or so). I measure the water and final dough temp with an IR thermometer.


Offline TXCraig1

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Re: What water temp do you think gives ny pizza dough a better flavor?
« Reply #9 on: August 15, 2012, 10:49:48 AM »
The flour and the mixer are in our kitchen that is kept at 74 degrees this time of year (AC going). It is a kitchen aid stand mixer that I run on setting 1 while blending the ingredients and then setting 2 while kneading the dough (typically for about 7 minutes or so). I measure the water and final dough temp with an IR thermometer.

I think 82F is at the very upper end of where you want your final dough temperature (with a very hydrated dough), so you might want to bring your water temp down a little.

What is your hydration %?
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Offline slybarman

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Re: What water temp do you think gives ny pizza dough a better flavor?
« Reply #10 on: August 15, 2012, 10:52:46 AM »
I am still working on my dough handling skills, so I am only using 58% hydration. BTW- I am measuring my 'final dough temp' at the conclusion of kneading and before balling. I assume that is the correct time to measure it?

Offline Don K

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Re: What water temp do you think gives ny pizza dough a better flavor?
« Reply #11 on: August 15, 2012, 10:54:34 AM »
The flour and the mixer are in our kitchen that is kept at 74 degrees this time of year (AC going). It is a kitchen aid stand mixer that I run on setting 1 while blending the ingredients and then setting 2 while kneading the dough (typically for about 7 minutes or so). I measure the water and final dough temp with an IR thermometer.
IR thermometers read surface temperature. Perhaps the surface temperature of the dough is a little cooler than the rest of it.
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Re: What water temp do you think gives ny pizza dough a better flavor?
« Reply #12 on: August 15, 2012, 11:03:49 AM »
For me, at home, there's few greater hassles than hitting a specific target temp for my water.  I don't drink cold water and I also rarely have much refrigerator real estate to spare, so I don't refrigerate water.  With my water always at room temp. Hitting a target temp means either microwaving it to heat it or using ice to cool it.  Both are a pain in my butt.  It's taken me some practice to dial it in, but I'd much rather adjust for water variations with yeast adjustments than by heating or cooling my water. Room temp, for me, is almost always going to be between 68 and 80.

I always hand knead, though, for minimal amounts of time, which doesn't drive up the temperature.

Offline slybarman

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Re: What water temp do you think gives ny pizza dough a better flavor?
« Reply #13 on: August 15, 2012, 11:08:52 AM »
IR thermometers read surface temperature. Perhaps the surface temperature of the dough is a little cooler than the rest of it.

A possibility. Though if friction from the dough hook and mixing bowl are sending heat into the dough, I presumed it would do it from the outside in.

How are other measuring the temp - probe thermometer?

Offline Don K

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Re: What water temp do you think gives ny pizza dough a better flavor?
« Reply #14 on: August 15, 2012, 11:20:49 AM »
I've never measured the temperature of my water. I always just use the coldest water out of the tap. In my community the tap water is pretty cold. It varies a little by season but it is always fairly cold.

I never bothered to take the final dough temperature, but if I has to guess, I'd say it was definitely cooler than room temperature. I always refrigerate immediately after the final knead.
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Offline slybarman

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Re: What water temp do you think gives ny pizza dough a better flavor?
« Reply #15 on: August 15, 2012, 11:26:24 AM »
Hmmm. Not sure where I even got the 80-85 final dough temp target from (the lehman dough thread maybe?). What effect does a higher/lower final dough temp have on the dough? The OP asked about changes in flavor, but what else changes with temp?

Offline Aimless Ryan

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Re: What water temp do you think gives ny pizza dough a better flavor?
« Reply #16 on: August 15, 2012, 11:28:49 AM »
For me, at home, there's few greater hassles than hitting a specific target temp for my water.  I don't drink cold water and I also rarely have much refrigerator real estate to spare, so I don't refrigerate water.  With my water always at room temp. Hitting a target temp means either microwaving it to heat it or using ice to cool it.  Both are a pain in my butt.  It's taken me some practice to dial it in, but I'd much rather adjust for water variations with yeast adjustments than by heating or cooling my water. Room temp, for me, is almost always going to be between 68 and 80.

I always hand knead, though, for minimal amounts of time, which doesn't drive up the temperature.

The way I see it, dough temperature straight out of the mixer for a refrigerated dough of 1 or 2 lbs is much less important than the dough temperature of a pizzeria-sized batch, for a couple reasons: 1) One or two dough balls will cool a lot quicker than a couple hundred dough balls, which says to me that a 90-degree dough ball will reach the ideal temperature in a home fridge almost as fast as an 80-degree dough ball; and 2) I assume there must be a lot more heat generated in large batches of dough than in small, home-sized batches.

Regardless, because of this thread, I'm probably going to start paying a little more attention to the temperature of my dough.
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Offline TXCraig1

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Re: What water temp do you think gives ny pizza dough a better flavor?
« Reply #17 on: August 15, 2012, 11:31:33 AM »
I am still working on my dough handling skills, so I am only using 58% hydration. BTW- I am measuring my 'final dough temp' at the conclusion of kneading and before balling. I assume that is the correct time to measure it?

Yes, that is correct. I think most would say something closer to 77F would be appropriate for a 58% HR dough.
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Offline TXCraig1

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Re: What water temp do you think gives ny pizza dough a better flavor?
« Reply #18 on: August 15, 2012, 11:38:25 AM »
Hmmm. Not sure where I even got the 80-85 final dough temp target from (the lehman dough thread maybe?). What effect does a higher/lower final dough temp have on the dough?

If it gets too warm, it will start to break down your gluten. It will also accelerate your fermentation.

Quote
The OP asked about changes in flavor, but what else changes with temp?
Fermentation rate is the big one. In sourdough, it can cause big changes in flavor, but here we are talking about fermentation temp, not water temp.
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Offline TXCraig1

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Re: What water temp do you think gives ny pizza dough a better flavor?
« Reply #19 on: August 15, 2012, 11:39:54 AM »
A possibility. Though if friction from the dough hook and mixing bowl are sending heat into the dough, I presumed it would do it from the outside in.

How are other measuring the temp - probe thermometer?

I think the best way to measure dough temp would be to stick an instant read thermometer into the center of the dough near the hook.
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Offline TXCraig1

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Re: What water temp do you think gives ny pizza dough a better flavor?
« Reply #20 on: August 15, 2012, 11:41:30 AM »
2) I assume there must be a lot more heat generated in large batches of dough than in small, home-sized batches.

Maybe, maybe not, but a large batch certainly takes longer to cool.
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Offline slybarman

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Re: What water temp do you think gives ny pizza dough a better flavor?
« Reply #21 on: August 15, 2012, 11:54:20 AM »
Thanks all for the replies and advice. I will lower my final dough temp accordingly.

Offline juniorballoon

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Re: What water temp do you think gives ny pizza dough a better flavor?
« Reply #22 on: August 15, 2012, 12:37:51 PM »
I have nothing to add other than to say it is interesting and eye opening to see a 2 page thread on water temp and that initial water temp can affect the taste of the final product. I have a lot to learn.

Thanks,
jb

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Re: What water temp do you think gives ny pizza dough a better flavor?
« Reply #23 on: August 15, 2012, 01:46:14 PM »
Not sure where I even got the 80-85 final dough temp target from (the lehman dough thread maybe?).

Steve,

The 80-85 degree F finished dough temperature applies to doughs that are to go into a commercial cooler, as in a professional setting. The finished dough temperature that is typically recommended for a home setting is around 75-80 degrees F. The reason for the difference is that a standard home refrigerator typically runs several degrees warmer than a commercial cooler. However, it is important to keep in mind that there are a lot more variables in a home setting. For example, how dough will cool in a standard home refrigerator will depend on how many dough ball are to be cooled, the dough formulation and the dough ball size, the nature of the containers in which the dough balls are to be stored (e.g., glass, bags, plastic or metal), whether the dough balls are initially exposed in the refrigerator before covering, where in the refrigerator the dough balls are kept (some parts of the refrigerator are cooler than others), what other items are in the refrigerator at the same time, changes in the interior temperature of the refrigerator as items are removed and replaced with other items, and how often the refrigerator door is opened and closed. Quite often, in pizzerias the dough is made in the evening after the last service. That way, there is very little traffic into the cooler until the next day when the dough balls are to be used to make pizzas. To minimize the above effects, in a home setting some people have a second refrigerator, such as a beer refrigerator, and use that to store their dough balls.

There are also many factors that come into play when a dough is made in a home setting. For example, if an autolyse or similar rest period is used, or if a dough is permitted to ferment before refrigerating, or if a preferment is added to the dough at some point, the temperature of the dough will quite likely approach that of room temperature (the transfer of heat is always from warm to cool). It isn't always easy to achieve the desired finished dough temperature in such cases. Sometimes preferments are added while cold or at different stages of the dough preparation process to achieve some measure of control of the finished dough temperature.

Peter
« Last Edit: August 15, 2012, 01:55:31 PM by Pete-zza »

Offline slybarman

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Re: What water temp do you think gives ny pizza dough a better flavor?
« Reply #24 on: August 15, 2012, 02:23:49 PM »
Thanks Pete. Good info.

FWIW:

I am usually just doing 2 dough balls - sometimes 4.
I place them into round gladware containers
I leave the lid off for the 1st hour
I put them into my 2nd (beer) refrigerator.
That refrigerator does not get opened very much.
I have not been using an autolyze period, but have considered it
no preferment

Steve


 

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