What water temp do you think gives ny pizza dough a better flavor?

[TXCraig1]

2) I assume there must be a lot more heat generated in large batches of dough than in small, home-sized batches.

Maybe, maybe not, but a large batch certainly takes longer to cool.

[slybarman]

Thanks all for the replies and advice. I will lower my final dough temp accordingly.

[juniorballoon]

I have nothing to add other than to say it is interesting and eye opening to see a 2 page thread on water temp and that initial water temp can affect the taste of the final product. I have a lot to learn.

Thanks,
jb

[Pete-zza]

Not sure where I even got the 80-85 final dough temp target from (the lehman dough thread maybe?).

Steve,

The 80-85 degree F finished dough temperature applies to doughs that are to go into a commercial cooler, as in a professional setting. The finished dough temperature that is typically recommended for a home setting is around 75-80 degrees F. The reason for the difference is that a standard home refrigerator typically runs several degrees warmer than a commercial cooler. However, it is important to keep in mind that there are a lot more variables in a home setting. For example, how dough will cool in a standard home refrigerator will depend on how many dough ball are to be cooled, the dough formulation and the dough ball size, the nature of the containers in which the dough balls are to be stored (e.g., glass, bags, plastic or metal), whether the dough balls are initially exposed in the refrigerator before covering, where in the refrigerator the dough balls are kept (some parts of the refrigerator are cooler than others), what other items are in the refrigerator at the same time, changes in the interior temperature of the refrigerator as items are removed and replaced with other items, and how often the refrigerator door is opened and closed. Quite often, in pizzerias the dough is made in the evening after the last service. That way, there is very little traffic into the cooler until the next day when the dough balls are to be used to make pizzas. To minimize the above effects, in a home setting some people have a second refrigerator, such as a beer refrigerator, and use that to store their dough balls.

There are also many factors that come into play when a dough is made in a home setting. For example, if an autolyse or similar rest period is used, or if a dough is permitted to ferment before refrigerating, or if a preferment is added to the dough at some point, the temperature of the dough will quite likely approach that of room temperature (the transfer of heat is always from warm to cool). It isn't always easy to achieve the desired finished dough temperature in such cases. Sometimes preferments are added while cold or at different stages of the dough preparation process to achieve some measure of control of the finished dough temperature.

Peter

[slybarman]

Thanks Pete. Good info.

FWIW:

I am usually just doing 2 dough balls - sometimes 4.
I place them into round gladware containers
I leave the lid off for the 1st hour
I put them into my 2nd (beer) refrigerator.
That refrigerator does not get opened very much.
I have not been using an autolyze period, but have considered it
no preferment

Steve

[pizzablogger]

A commercial mixing session may or may not raise the temperature of the dough more than a smaller sized batch mixed at home. A lot of it depends on how gently the commercial mixer in question mixes the dough as compared to whatever you are doing at home. The Hobart mixer that I am using for medium sized batches of dough (65-70 doughballs worth) does raise the temperature slighly more than my Kitchen Aid mixer at home does (I use both mixers at their lowest speeds).

As mentioned previously, the big difference is that a larger sized batch of dough will take longer, potentially much longer, for the interior of the dough ball to cool to a desired temperature than a smaller sized home batch. At the same time, while the larger sized doughball is taking longer to cool internally, initial fermentation in the larger sized dough may "take off" faster due to the mass effect of the larger dough and also because the temperature increases from yeast activity appear to be magnified in a larger mass of dough (more insular properties in the larger dough mass). So it can be a "double whammy" of sorts...the larger dough mass takes longer to cool down, comparatively, while at the same time the temperature increases from yeast activity may be internilized more expediently in the larger mass.

I had problems with this transition myself, which has caused me to be very careful in trying to calculate my initial water temperature to reach my DDT (desired dough temperature) when the dough comes off the hook. I target an off the hook (spiral arm actually) temperature of 73-75°F.

Agreed that flavor is not impacted by this step alone, but since the consistency of how yeast behaves can be greatly aided by consistent dough temperatures when done mixing, the end flavor of the dough can be impacted. --K

[AimlessRyan]

Another thing to consider, which I don't think has been mentioned, is that when you make two or three dough balls at home, you put them in the fridge almost immediately after mixing. At a pizzeria the dough doesn't go into the cooler for probably about half an hour after it finishes mixing because there is so much dough to scale and round before you put it in the cooler.

EDIT: Changed "immediately after rounding" to "immediately after mixing."

[Pete-zza]

Ryan,

You raise a good point. According to Tom Lehmann, ideally you want to get all of the bulk dough cut and balled within 20 minutes (see item 9 at Reply 18 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,7499.msg64554/topicseen.html#msg64554). When you reach the point where several hundred dough balls have to be made at one time, and there is not sufficient help to cut and ball dough balls within 20 minutes, that is when a dough divider/rounder starts to make economic sense.

Peter

[pizzablogger]

Ryan,

You raise a good point. According to Tom Lehmann, ideally you want to get all of the bulk dough cut and balled within 20 minutes

Lol. I'm not close to that. 

Although this is one of the reasons I now divide my bulk mass into two smaller sizes (about 35 dough balls worth each). That way I can keep one of the masses in the cooler while balling the other.

But I am still closer to 40-45 minutes to get the 35 or so balls measured, balled and placed in the tray. Depending on how hot it is in my kitchen, this has created a situation where balls 20-36 of a mass are sometimes ready to be made into pizza before the first balls from the bulk mass. Fortunately, the Cambro containers I use are clear and I can lift a tray up and see the bubble action taking place on the bottom of every 8 balls of dough. Being able to see the dough talking to me certainly aids in this regard. --K

[norma427]

I make batches of dough in my 20 qt. Hobart that can make 18 dough balls at a time and mix only on speed one.  I found that since where I make my dough balls are warmer than most places, (so right now in the hot heat of the summer) I have to use all cold water out of my deli case.  I also have turned down my pizza prep refrigerator temperature so the dough balls don't ferment too much over the course of the next day.  I can easily scale, ball and oil the dough balls in less than 20 mintues, but I can feel the temperature of the scaled dough does climb, while sitting on the warmer marble slab.  I scale first, then ball, oil and bag.  In the last few weeks, I ball, oil and bag six dough balls and right into the pizza prep fridge they go, then it is on to the next six. 

At home when I mix in my Kitchen Aid mixer, (on speed one too) there aren't those problems.  It is easier for me to control those dough balls in air-condtioning, but then I don't make a lot of dough balls at one time.

Norma 

[kdefay]

I'm using a 30qt spiral mixer, and do up to 30 balls in one batch with a mixing time of about 9 minutes (2 minutes on low, 7 minutes on high).  The dough is finished, removed from the mixer and transferred to the granite work surface, divided, balled and placed into proofing boxes, oiled, and finally refrigerated.  This is realistically a 40 minute process and there is plenty of time for the dough to warm up.  I want limited dough expansion during the 2-day fermentation, and so my use of very cold water 35-40F  has been the only way I have found that gives me the desired result on a consistent basis. 

[pythonic]

Hi everyone.  I was actually referring to the different bacteria (and flavor) your dough gets using hot vs cold water.

Nate

[TXCraig1]

Hi everyone.  I was actually referring to the different bacteria (and flavor) your dough gets using hot vs cold water.

I don't bacteria are going to play much of a role unless you are talking about sourdough. In any case, the biggest effect of the water temp is not going to be directly on the flavor - rather, it will play a role in the rate the fermentation kicks off and perhaps the length of fermentation which will effect flavor.

Sourdough yeasts and Lactic Acid Bacteria (LAB) typically grow at a similar rate at cooler temperatures but the bacteria do much better once the temp passes 80F or so (up to around 100F). Notwithstanding, the ambient temperature is probably going to be a lot more important than the water temperature over the course of fermentation. Lastly, I would note that the byproducts of fermentation are not identical at cooler and warmer temperatures. I prefer cooler for pizza and warmer for SD bread. But again, this is the ambient temperature not the water temperature that is the key factor. I simply use the water temperature to get the dough to the desired starting point.

CL

[norma427]

Hi everyone.  I was actually referring to the different bacteria (and flavor) your dough gets using hot vs cold water.

Nate

Nate,

I agree with Craig, although I don't have the experience he has.  

I can't really see any differences in tastes of the final crust when using regular yeasts, but it is a combination of how much yeast each formulation uses, ferment times. whether room temperature or cold fermented and also the time allowed for the dough to ferment.  I might not be altogether right, but these have been my experiences.  Cold or warmer water doesn't seem to make any differences to me in the final crust, it is just what makes the dough ferment faster or slower.  There are also other variables involved, such as salt amount, flours, hydrations and also if any oil is used in the formulation.

Norma

[pythonic]

I was under the impression that different bacteria were attracted to different water temps and these bacteria produced different flavors.   Is this not the case?  My normal ambient temp for my ny dough is between 82-85 degrees and then they go into the fridge.  If the ambient temp was say 50 degrees, will there be any diffence other than the longer ferment time?

[norma427]

I was under the impression that different bacteria were attracted to different water temps.  Is this not the case?

Nate,

I really don't think using regular yeast really make that much difference in attracting different bacteria.  

Norma

[kdefay]

In a commercial environment, there are other considerations that can override this 'bacteria/water temp' discussion.  When you are placing 12 balls of dough into each proofing box for a 2-day cold ferment, you don't want those balls to expand so much that they grow into each other and need to be cut apart.  Working with very cold water (and low yeast %) facilitates this process by allowing the dough to equalize its temp with the refrigerator faster and thus limit its growth. 

I do a straight dough with no preferments.  The balls are allowed 2 days in refrigeration before being used and I get a wonderful tasting dough that is soft and extensible.  I am always amazed at the difference between a 1-day vs. 2-day dough.  There is a dramatic difference in not only the way it bakes, but also in the way it feels and stretches. 

Kirk

[pythonic]

In a commercial environment, there are other considerations that can override this 'bacteria/water temp' discussion.  When you are placing 12 balls of dough into each proofing box for a 2-day cold ferment, you don't want those balls to expand so much that they grow into each other and need to be cut apart.  Working with very cold water (and low yeast %) facilitates this process by allowing the dough to equalize its temp with the refrigerator faster and thus limit its growth. 

I do a straight dough with no preferments.  The balls are allowed 2 days in refrigeration before being used and I get a wonderful tasting dough that is soft and extensible.  I am always amazed at the difference between a 1-day vs. 2-day dough.  There is a dramatic difference in not only the way it bakes, but also in the way it feels and stretches. 

Kirk

Kirk,

Could u possibly share a recipe you are using with the cold water.  I've been using a poolish with room temp water and would like to venture into using the cold water.

Nate

[TXCraig1]

I was under the impression that different bacteria were attracted to different water temps and these bacteria produced different flavors.   Is this not the case?  My normal ambient temp for my ny dough is between 82-85 degrees and then they go into the fridge.  If the ambient temp was say 50 degrees, will there be any diffence other than the longer ferment time?

The bacterial flora you have is the flora you have. You are not going to "attract" different (or any) bacteria by varying water temp. For a baker's yeast leavened dough, the bacterial activity is not material. In a sourdough, the fermentation temperature does play a role in the fermentation products produced and thus the flavor. If you are using bakers years (i.e. ADY, IDY, or CY), the temperature at which it goes into the fridge is only going to affect the time, and with home quantities of dough, the impact is probably insignificant.

[norma427]

Kirk,

Could u possibly share a recipe you are using with the cold water.  I've been using a poolish with room temp water and would like to venture into using the cold water.

Nate

Nate,

I am not Kirk, but this is the preferment Lehmann dough Peter set-forth for me for a 1 dough ball batch at Reply 225 http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,9908.msg90226.html#msg90226  There are also other formulations on that thread for larger batches. The formulation Peter set-forth for me was for a poolish that could be made one day, then cold fermented for 3 days, then made into the final dough on the third day, then cold fermented for 1 day.  Of course, the poolish could be left at room temperature, in a proofing box, or even in an oven with the light on so the poolish could be ready in one day to then mix the final dough.  If you are interested it could be tried with cold water.  I am not sure what kind of formulation you are now using.

Maybe you could post your formulation for other members to look at.

Norma