Author Topic: What water temp do you think gives ny pizza dough a better flavor?  (Read 8412 times)

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Offline pizzablogger

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Re: What water temp do you think gives ny pizza dough a better flavor?
« Reply #25 on: August 15, 2012, 02:39:49 PM »
A commercial mixing session may or may not raise the temperature of the dough more than a smaller sized batch mixed at home. A lot of it depends on how gently the commercial mixer in question mixes the dough as compared to whatever you are doing at home. The Hobart mixer that I am using for medium sized batches of dough (65-70 doughballs worth) does raise the temperature slighly more than my Kitchen Aid mixer at home does (I use both mixers at their lowest speeds).

As mentioned previously, the big difference is that a larger sized batch of dough will take longer, potentially much longer, for the interior of the dough ball to cool to a desired temperature than a smaller sized home batch. At the same time, while the larger sized doughball is taking longer to cool internally, initial fermentation in the larger sized dough may "take off" faster due to the mass effect of the larger dough and also because the temperature increases from yeast activity appear to be magnified in a larger mass of dough (more insular properties in the larger dough mass). So it can be a "double whammy" of sorts...the larger dough mass takes longer to cool down, comparatively, while at the same time the temperature increases from yeast activity may be internilized more expediently in the larger mass.

I had problems with this transition myself, which has caused me to be very careful in trying to calculate my initial water temperature to reach my DDT (desired dough temperature) when the dough comes off the hook. I target an off the hook (spiral arm actually) temperature of 73-75F.

Agreed that flavor is not impacted by this step alone, but since the consistency of how yeast behaves can be greatly aided by consistent dough temperatures when done mixing, the end flavor of the dough can be impacted. --K
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Offline Aimless Ryan

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Re: What water temp do you think gives ny pizza dough a better flavor?
« Reply #26 on: August 15, 2012, 02:47:47 PM »
Another thing to consider, which I don't think has been mentioned, is that when you make two or three dough balls at home, you put them in the fridge almost immediately after mixing. At a pizzeria the dough doesn't go into the cooler for probably about half an hour after it finishes mixing because there is so much dough to scale and round before you put it in the cooler.

EDIT: Changed "immediately after rounding" to "immediately after mixing."
« Last Edit: August 15, 2012, 09:15:09 PM by AimlessRyan »
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Offline Pete-zza

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Re: What water temp do you think gives ny pizza dough a better flavor?
« Reply #27 on: August 15, 2012, 03:03:43 PM »
Ryan,

You raise a good point. According to Tom Lehmann, ideally you want to get all of the bulk dough cut and balled within 20 minutes (see item 9 at Reply 18 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,7499.msg64554/topicseen.html#msg64554). When you reach the point where several hundred dough balls have to be made at one time, and there is not sufficient help to cut and ball dough balls within 20 minutes, that is when a dough divider/rounder starts to make economic sense.

Peter

Offline pizzablogger

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Re: What water temp do you think gives ny pizza dough a better flavor?
« Reply #28 on: August 15, 2012, 03:14:31 PM »
Ryan,

You raise a good point. According to Tom Lehmann, ideally you want to get all of the bulk dough cut and balled within 20 minutes

Lol. I'm not close to that.  :-[ :-D

Although this is one of the reasons I now divide my bulk mass into two smaller sizes (about 35 dough balls worth each). That way I can keep one of the masses in the cooler while balling the other.

But I am still closer to 40-45 minutes to get the 35 or so balls measured, balled and placed in the tray. Depending on how hot it is in my kitchen, this has created a situation where balls 20-36 of a mass are sometimes ready to be made into pizza before the first balls from the bulk mass. Fortunately, the Cambro containers I use are clear and I can lift a tray up and see the bubble action taking place on the bottom of every 8 balls of dough. Being able to see the dough talking to me certainly aids in this regard. --K
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Offline norma427

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Re: What water temp do you think gives ny pizza dough a better flavor?
« Reply #29 on: August 15, 2012, 05:28:39 PM »
I make batches of dough in my 20 qt. Hobart that can make 18 dough balls at a time and mix only on speed one.  I found that since where I make my dough balls are warmer than most places, (so right now in the hot heat of the summer) I have to use all cold water out of my deli case.  I also have turned down my pizza prep refrigerator temperature so the dough balls don't ferment too much over the course of the next day.  I can easily scale, ball and oil the dough balls in less than 20 mintues, but I can feel the temperature of the scaled dough does climb, while sitting on the warmer marble slab.  I scale first, then ball, oil and bag.  In the last few weeks, I ball, oil and bag six dough balls and right into the pizza prep fridge they go, then it is on to the next six. 

At home when I mix in my Kitchen Aid mixer, (on speed one too) there aren't those problems.  It is easier for me to control those dough balls in air-condtioning, but then I don't make a lot of dough balls at one time.

Norma 

Offline kdefay

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Re: What water temp do you think gives ny pizza dough a better flavor?
« Reply #30 on: August 15, 2012, 09:47:08 PM »
I'm using a 30qt spiral mixer, and do up to 30 balls in one batch with a mixing time of about 9 minutes (2 minutes on low, 7 minutes on high).  The dough is finished, removed from the mixer and transferred to the granite work surface, divided, balled and placed into proofing boxes, oiled, and finally refrigerated.  This is realistically a 40 minute process and there is plenty of time for the dough to warm up.  I want limited dough expansion during the 2-day fermentation, and so my use of very cold water 35-40F  has been the only way I have found that gives me the desired result on a consistent basis. 
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Offline pythonic

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Re: What water temp do you think gives ny pizza dough a better flavor?
« Reply #31 on: August 16, 2012, 06:15:52 PM »
Hi everyone.  I was actually referring to the different bacteria (and flavor) your dough gets using hot vs cold water.

Nate
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Offline TXCraig1

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Re: What water temp do you think gives ny pizza dough a better flavor?
« Reply #32 on: August 16, 2012, 07:37:06 PM »
Hi everyone.  I was actually referring to the different bacteria (and flavor) your dough gets using hot vs cold water.

I don't bacteria are going to play much of a role unless you are talking about sourdough. In any case, the biggest effect of the water temp is not going to be directly on the flavor - rather, it will play a role in the rate the fermentation kicks off and perhaps the length of fermentation which will effect flavor.

Sourdough yeasts and Lactic Acid Bacteria (LAB) typically grow at a similar rate at cooler temperatures but the bacteria do much better once the temp passes 80F or so (up to around 100F). Notwithstanding, the ambient temperature is probably going to be a lot more important than the water temperature over the course of fermentation. Lastly, I would note that the byproducts of fermentation are not identical at cooler and warmer temperatures. I prefer cooler for pizza and warmer for SD bread. But again, this is the ambient temperature not the water temperature that is the key factor. I simply use the water temperature to get the dough to the desired starting point.

CL
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Offline norma427

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Re: What water temp do you think gives ny pizza dough a better flavor?
« Reply #33 on: August 16, 2012, 08:04:27 PM »
Hi everyone.  I was actually referring to the different bacteria (and flavor) your dough gets using hot vs cold water.

Nate

Nate,

I agree with Craig, although I don't have the experience he has.  

I can't really see any differences in tastes of the final crust when using regular yeasts, but it is a combination of how much yeast each formulation uses, ferment times. whether room temperature or cold fermented and also the time allowed for the dough to ferment.  I might not be altogether right, but these have been my experiences.  Cold or warmer water doesn't seem to make any differences to me in the final crust, it is just what makes the dough ferment faster or slower.  There are also other variables involved, such as salt amount, flours, hydrations and also if any oil is used in the formulation.

Norma



Offline pythonic

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Re: What water temp do you think gives ny pizza dough a better flavor?
« Reply #34 on: August 16, 2012, 08:32:04 PM »
I was under the impression that different bacteria were attracted to different water temps and these bacteria produced different flavors.   Is this not the case?  My normal ambient temp for my ny dough is between 82-85 degrees and then they go into the fridge.  If the ambient temp was say 50 degrees, will there be any diffence other than the longer ferment time?
« Last Edit: August 16, 2012, 08:47:31 PM by pythonic »
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Offline norma427

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Re: What water temp do you think gives ny pizza dough a better flavor?
« Reply #35 on: August 16, 2012, 08:45:50 PM »
I was under the impression that different bacteria were attracted to different water temps.  Is this not the case?

Nate,

I really don't think using regular yeast really make that much difference in attracting different bacteria.  

Norma
« Last Edit: August 16, 2012, 10:05:57 PM by norma427 »

Offline kdefay

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Re: What water temp do you think gives ny pizza dough a better flavor?
« Reply #36 on: August 16, 2012, 09:59:55 PM »
In a commercial environment, there are other considerations that can override this 'bacteria/water temp' discussion.  When you are placing 12 balls of dough into each proofing box for a 2-day cold ferment, you don't want those balls to expand so much that they grow into each other and need to be cut apart.  Working with very cold water (and low yeast %) facilitates this process by allowing the dough to equalize its temp with the refrigerator faster and thus limit its growth. 

I do a straight dough with no preferments.  The balls are allowed 2 days in refrigeration before being used and I get a wonderful tasting dough that is soft and extensible.  I am always amazed at the difference between a 1-day vs. 2-day dough.  There is a dramatic difference in not only the way it bakes, but also in the way it feels and stretches. 

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Offline pythonic

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Re: What water temp do you think gives ny pizza dough a better flavor?
« Reply #37 on: August 16, 2012, 11:21:23 PM »
In a commercial environment, there are other considerations that can override this 'bacteria/water temp' discussion.  When you are placing 12 balls of dough into each proofing box for a 2-day cold ferment, you don't want those balls to expand so much that they grow into each other and need to be cut apart.  Working with very cold water (and low yeast %) facilitates this process by allowing the dough to equalize its temp with the refrigerator faster and thus limit its growth. 

I do a straight dough with no preferments.  The balls are allowed 2 days in refrigeration before being used and I get a wonderful tasting dough that is soft and extensible.  I am always amazed at the difference between a 1-day vs. 2-day dough.  There is a dramatic difference in not only the way it bakes, but also in the way it feels and stretches. 

Kirk

Kirk,

Could u possibly share a recipe you are using with the cold water.  I've been using a poolish with room temp water and would like to venture into using the cold water.

Nate
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Offline TXCraig1

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Re: What water temp do you think gives ny pizza dough a better flavor?
« Reply #38 on: August 16, 2012, 11:32:05 PM »
I was under the impression that different bacteria were attracted to different water temps and these bacteria produced different flavors.   Is this not the case?  My normal ambient temp for my ny dough is between 82-85 degrees and then they go into the fridge.  If the ambient temp was say 50 degrees, will there be any diffence other than the longer ferment time?

The bacterial flora you have is the flora you have. You are not going to "attract" different (or any) bacteria by varying water temp. For a baker's yeast leavened dough, the bacterial activity is not material. In a sourdough, the fermentation temperature does play a role in the fermentation products produced and thus the flavor. If you are using bakers years (i.e. ADY, IDY, or CY), the temperature at which it goes into the fridge is only going to affect the time, and with home quantities of dough, the impact is probably insignificant.
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Offline norma427

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Re: What water temp do you think gives ny pizza dough a better flavor?
« Reply #39 on: August 16, 2012, 11:47:57 PM »
Kirk,

Could u possibly share a recipe you are using with the cold water.  I've been using a poolish with room temp water and would like to venture into using the cold water.

Nate

Nate,

I am not Kirk, but this is the preferment Lehmann dough Peter set-forth for me for a 1 dough ball batch at Reply 225 http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,9908.msg90226.html#msg90226  There are also other formulations on that thread for larger batches. The formulation Peter set-forth for me was for a poolish that could be made one day, then cold fermented for 3 days, then made into the final dough on the third day, then cold fermented for 1 day.  Of course, the poolish could be left at room temperature, in a proofing box, or even in an oven with the light on so the poolish could be ready in one day to then mix the final dough.  If you are interested it could be tried with cold water.  I am not sure what kind of formulation you are now using.

Maybe you could post your formulation for other members to look at.

Norma
« Last Edit: August 16, 2012, 11:49:52 PM by norma427 »

Offline kdefay

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Re: What water temp do you think gives ny pizza dough a better flavor?
« Reply #40 on: August 17, 2012, 12:12:34 AM »
Happy to share, but this recipe is formulated around the specific flours and conditions that I have to deal with here in Thailand.

Flour 100% (blended at 70% DiVella 00 to 30% bread flour (13.5-14%)
Salt 2.5%
IDY - .30%
Sugar .5%
Oil 1%
Water 62% (I mix 30% of water weight as ice and use it when the cubes have melted sufficiently)

Here's some specifics...The DiVella 00 flour (10.5% protein) is the only 00 flour available here in Thailand, so it's what I use.  My bread flour is a Thai brand but it works quite well with this dough.  In the past I used to autolyse (when I was hand mixing), but I don't anymore.  I'm with Craig as I am more concerned with getting the dough balls in the fridge while they are still cool.  I mix my ice water with the salt and sugar and set it aside while I mix the flours and the yeast together and weigh out the oil.

I use a 30-quart spiral mixer.  I put the water in first, followed by the flour/yeast.  I mix for 2 minutes on low, add the oil and for 6 1/2 minutes on high.  I immediately transfer the dough from the mixer to my work surface, where I divide the dough into 480g balls (16" pies) and place into proofing boxes for their 2-day cold ferment.  Stacks of proofing boxes can be seen in the refrigerator in the background of the mixer photo.  If all goes according to plan, two days later the dough balls have expanded to the point where they are slightly touching each other, but not so much that they need to be cut apart.  

I know that most people are using only bread flour in their NY dough, but I really like the result of mixing with the 00 flour.

I use a modified gas deck oven with 1" thick cordierite for the floor and also suspended about 5" above the floor.  My floor temp is generally about 650F and the upper temp is much hotter (not sure how much because it was beyond the range of the IR thermometer I tested last week).  I have no problem achieving a 4 minute bake time with this setup.


Kirk





« Last Edit: August 17, 2012, 04:00:44 AM by kdefay »
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Offline The Dough Doctor

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Re: What water temp do you think gives ny pizza dough a better flavor?
« Reply #41 on: September 20, 2012, 09:46:26 AM »
The greatest impact that variations in finished dough temperature will have is on the rate of fermentation, with warmer dough temperatures promoting faster fermentation. This can lead to problems if you are holding the dough for several days in the refrigerator as many of us do. I've seen doughs fail to rise properly after two to three days in the fridge when the yeast level was high (relative) and the dough temperature was also high (for the yeast level used). For greatest consistency in dough performance, along with predictable flavor and crust color characteristics it is adviseable to control the finished dough temperature as closely as possible. Here is a simple method for doing this. It is from Red Star/Lesaffre Yeast Corporation.
Subtract the flour temperature from 145 to find the correct water temperature to give you a finished dough temperature of approximately 80F. Note: Since there are so many different dough mixing methods employed by visitors to this web site, I suggest that you experiment a little with that 145 number. For example, if your flour is 65F it will suggest a water temperature of 80F to give you a finished dough temperature of 80F. If the actual dough temperature is higher use a number LOWER than 145 or if the actual dough temperature is lower than 80F, use a higher number. This would also hold true if you want a finished dough temperature higher or lower than 80F. Once you find your number you should be able to lock it in and get consistent finished dough temps.
Tom Lehmann/The Dough Doctor


Offline MrPibbs

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Re: What water temp do you think gives ny pizza dough a better flavor?
« Reply #42 on: October 09, 2012, 12:15:40 AM »
I have been following Pete-ZZa's first post ingredients in his Tom Lehman's NY Style thread, for a 16" pizza,where he says to end up with a dough temp of 85F.  Since I am a home user just making that 20 oz amount in my Bosch mixer (dough hook), I have to start with my filtered water microwaved for a minute up to 115F to end up with 85F in final dough.  (Measured with Thermapen)

With this lesser volume recipe, there is a lot of heat transferring to the room temp mixing bowl.  Everything is identical to Pete's post (KASL, SAF IDY, etc.), except I add 1 tsp sugar.  After mixing it for about 10-12 mins, I put it in an oiled tupperware bowl, and immediately start it's cold ferment in 45F frig for 3 days.

I have made it at least a dozen times, and has always turned out great with excellent flavor and lotsa air bubbles.

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: What water temp do you think gives ny pizza dough a better flavor?
« Reply #43 on: October 09, 2012, 09:10:32 AM »
MrPibbs,

Subsequent to the post you referred to, I started to recommend that home pizza makers strive for a finished dough temperature of around 75-80 degrees F. The reason for the change is that I discovered that most home refrigerators run warmer than commercial coolers. So, lowering the finished dough temperature in a home setting is intended to compensate for the differences in residential/commercial cooling capacity. Of course, in any given case, how a dough ferments after it is placed into the refrigerator depends on several factors, including the size of the dough ball and how it is stored in its container (e.g., in a plastic, glass or metal container, a storage bag, etc.), the number of dough balls to be cooled, where in the refrigerator compartment the dough is stored (e.g., in the back away from the door, high or low in the refrigerator compartment, etc.), what other items are also in the refrigerator compartment and being cooled at the same time, and how often the refrigerator door is opened and closed. Because of these variables, some people choose to use a spare refrigerator to store their dough balls since such spare refrigerators tend not to have nearly the same traffic as the main refrigerator and, as a result, tend to have more stable cooling temperatures.

In your case, if you are happy with the results you have been getting, I don't see any reason to change anything (if it ain't broke, don't fix it). I just wanted you to know that my recommendation on finished dough temperature has changed since I posted in the reply you mentioned.

Peter

Offline PuRowdy

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Re: What water temp do you think gives ny pizza dough a better flavor?
« Reply #44 on: October 10, 2012, 09:02:30 AM »
Just a couple thoughts / questions?

I'm using ADY here at home, according to the pizza glossary on this site it says you should be hydrating the yeast in water that is 105-115 degrees before mixing with dry ingredients.  Is using lower temperature water going to affect the yeast activation or effectiveness?  Should I consider switching to IDY?

I've never paid any real attention to my final dough temp, something I will definitely start doing.

Offline TXCraig1

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Re: What water temp do you think gives ny pizza dough a better flavor?
« Reply #45 on: October 10, 2012, 09:06:16 AM »
Just a couple thoughts / questions?

I'm using ADY here at home, according to the pizza glossary on this site it says you should be hydrating the yeast in water that is 105-115 degrees before mixing with dry ingredients.  Is using lower temperature water going to affect the yeast activation or effectiveness?  Should I consider switching to IDY?

I've never paid any real attention to my final dough temp, something I will definitely start doing.

Keep in mind that you only need to hydrate you ADY in a small portion of your total formula water. The rest can be at a much cooler temperature.
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Offline PuRowdy

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Re: What water temp do you think gives ny pizza dough a better flavor?
« Reply #46 on: October 10, 2012, 01:03:13 PM »
Keep in mind that you only need to hydrate you ADY in a small portion of your total formula water. The rest can be at a much cooler temperature.

Ahh, hadn't thought about that, thanks for the input, I will keep that in mind next time.