Author Topic: Question re: Storage of flour  (Read 5647 times)

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Offline PizzaDanPizzaMan

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Question re: Storage of flour
« on: October 26, 2005, 01:04:03 PM »
I am thinking about "investing" is a 50# bag of KASL. I would like to try it first but cannot find a source for small quantities and thru Pete-zza's help did locate an out of state source that will sell me a 50#bag. I read in some other posts but couldn't find it thru a search, that properly stored flour is good for at least a year or more. At my current rate of use, this 50# bag would last me at least a year, so I would like to know from you knowledgeable members, what are some tips on storing a 50# bag?

Thanks in advance,
Dan

on edit: If this flour is as good as I hear, the 50# bag will likely not last a year, but that's another topic. ;D
« Last Edit: October 26, 2005, 01:05:51 PM by PizzaDanPizzaMan »


Offline vitoduke

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Re: Question re: Storage of flour
« Reply #1 on: October 26, 2005, 01:46:50 PM »
Dan --I bought a 50 pound bag  of KASL flour  and store it in a sealed  plastic container.  I also keep the container in a temp. controlled wine room that we have. I  not sure if the temp. makes that much difference, but we have the room for it. 
---Mel
« Last Edit: October 26, 2005, 01:58:13 PM by vitoduke »

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Question re: Storage of flour
« Reply #2 on: October 26, 2005, 01:51:32 PM »
PizzaDanPizzaMan,

From what I have read, white flour kept at a temperature of 70-75 degrees F should keep for a year. I have so many flours that I am sure some of them are beyond a year. Yet, they seem to be OK. Flours tend to lose some moisture with age, but that can be easily compensated for by tweaking the amount of water you use. If you have freezer space, that will extend the flour's useful life. Because I have had problems here in Texas with flour weevils, when I took delivery of my 50-lb. bag of KASL, as a precaution I froze it in 5 to 10-lb. increments to kill any eggs of weevils that might be present in the flour. I then put a bay leaf in each bag. Once you get weevils they are hard to get rid of, and they will also take up residence and procreate in cereals, rice, etc. And they can eat their way in or out of paper or cardboard.

If you make a lot of pizzas, and especially NY style, you should have no problem using up the the KASL. I think you will be very happy with it.

If you complete the purchase of the KASL, you might want to go to the thread that deals with 50-lb. bags of KASL and post the source, price, etc., for the benefit of our other members who may live in your area.

Peter
« Last Edit: October 26, 2005, 01:54:47 PM by Pete-zza »

Offline Wazza McG

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Re: Question re: Storage of flour
« Reply #3 on: October 26, 2005, 05:42:01 PM »
I have heard of the Bay Leaf trick before - thought it was an old wives tale, after doing a Google on it, there is a lot of people convinced it works.

Wazza
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Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Question re: Storage of flour
« Reply #4 on: October 26, 2005, 05:56:45 PM »
Wazza McG,

What you may want to know about bay leaves is that they won't get rid of existing weevils.I have a bay leaf bush in my back yard and I tried using them, both fresh and dry, and it didn't work to rid existing weevils. To the extent bay leaves actually work, it is as a preventive. Once I started freezing flours, the weevil problem ended.

Peter


Offline PizzaDanPizzaMan

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Re: Question re: Storage of flour
« Reply #5 on: October 26, 2005, 11:46:45 PM »
Thanks for the replies guys. One thing I was thinking is that we could put to good use the foodsaver vacuum packaging machine we recently purchased. I would think that putting the flour in these bags in 5# portions and freezing them would last a very long time, even without the bay leaf ;) But, I do have a problem paying $25.00 to ship $18.00 worth of product. The name of the supplier is noted on the post you mentioned Pete, and although the fellow there is nice enough, and it may be a very good source for the flour, I am first going to see if I can find a local pizzaria or bakery that would be willing to sell on a cash and carry basis before I lay out $43.00 for the bag from Arizona. I certainly don't mind paying for quality ingredients but overpaying for them takes some of the fun out of the hobby. On that note, what about us members here putting together a list of cash and carry establishments sorted by geograpical area so that other members may benefit from their research. I will certainly post the results of my efforts in my hunt for resources in the Los Angeles area. San Gabriel Valley in particular.

Later,
Dan

piroshok

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Re: Question re: Storage of flour
« Reply #6 on: October 27, 2005, 08:47:36 AM »
I have three bags of flour of different strength around the house I move them around and always keep them in a coll place. I have no option to put them anywhere else since they are 25kg each.
As far as bayleaves are concer I know they work on clothing keeping the nasties away so it would be natural that they work may extent to flour but won't rid of existing weevils. if the flour is already old by the time someone bought
a bag there may be a likelhood of weevils all depends where and how the bag was stored however large 25kg bags always and ivariably have a milling date this date is used by the millers as a cross reference tool to establish freshness and other statistics such a protein level, ash etc. of the particular batch.

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Question re: Storage of flour
« Reply #7 on: October 28, 2005, 12:17:46 PM »
Dan,

I went back to the King Arthur website where I saw the name of one of their distributors of KA flours in California, Goldberg and Solovy, in L.A., and called and spoke to one of their employees, Aaron Stewart, about your buying and picking up a 50-lb. bag of KASL at their facility. I was told that you can do so. You would have to pay cash (no credit card or check). I believe he said the price is $18 and the limit is one bag. The limit is apparently because KA has been having trouble keeping up with demand. Goldberg and Solovy's number is 1-800-27-FOODS. Apparently, they have gotten several calls this week about the KASL, which puzzled Stewart and made him wonder what was so special about the KASL. I was told that they carry the flour for the Wynn hotels.

If you want to pursue this lead, I would call Stewart to get the specifics as to how to proceed. It sounds like all you have to do is show up with the money and you will get the flour. But I would call just to be on the safe side so you don't waste a trip.

Peter
« Last Edit: October 28, 2005, 12:19:28 PM by Pete-zza »

Offline PizzaDanPizzaMan

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Re: Question re: Storage of flour
« Reply #8 on: October 28, 2005, 09:51:35 PM »
Pete,
I called Goldman and Solovy earlier this week (undoubtedly one of the calls you mentioned), I was told (and I didn't get a name) that they could not sell to me on a cash and carry basis regardless of the quantity. But.........now that I have a name, you can bet I will be on the phone Monday morning and will gladly drive the 40 or so miles to pick up a bag. Thank you for your time and effort. I think I shall make a donation to this site as a token of my appreciation for the fine folks like you who unselfishly give of not just their time but their enormous knowledge which, like the Mastercard commercials say, is "priceless".

 ;) I am truly enjoying the lessons learned here.

Thank you Peter,
Dan

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Question re: Storage of flour
« Reply #9 on: October 28, 2005, 10:21:19 PM »
Dan,

I cross examined Mr. Stewart to be sure that what he was telling me was so because I recently ran into a similar situation in south Texas with another foodservice company where I was told one thing and one of our members was told the opposite. I mentioned to Mr. Stewart that it was perhaps our members who were calling him as a result of our forum's interest in the KASL, and in the process I mentioned pizzamaking.com. So I would mention pizzamaking.com because he is quite likely to remember our conversation as a result. I also told him that I was calling from Texas on behalf of an L.A. friend, which might also help jog his memory.

Good luck. And thanks for making a donation. I, too, have been a major beneficiary of the content that appears on our "pages" every day. Think of your contribution as a subscription cost. (Sorry for the shameless plug.)

Peter
« Last Edit: October 28, 2005, 10:25:45 PM by Pete-zza »


Offline PapaJon

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Re: Question re: Storage of flour
« Reply #10 on: February 07, 2011, 03:34:53 PM »
To update this thread, Goldberg and Solovy, in L.A. still carry 50# bags of KASL.
Current price as of 2/7/2011 is $22.95/bag, however they require a $100 minimum purchase.


Jon

scott123

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Re: Question re: Storage of flour
« Reply #11 on: February 07, 2011, 04:57:53 PM »
Jon, please tell me that you didn't buy $100 worth of KASL. Please  :(

Offline flyboy4ual

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Re: Question re: Storage of flour
« Reply #12 on: February 07, 2011, 06:22:40 PM »
I have been freezing my flour in ziplock bags.  It seems to work just fine.  Never had a problem.
Scott D.

Offline Guts

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Re: Question re: Storage of flour
« Reply #13 on: February 08, 2011, 10:51:16 AM »
To update this thread, Goldberg and Solovy, in L.A. still carry 50# bags of KASL.
Current price as of 2/7/2011 is $22.95/bag, however they require a $100 minimum purchase.

that's where I bought my KASL it was $17.50 a 50 pound bag this time last year. I put a post on the board here to find other locals that wanted King Arthur Sir Lancelot and KABF , which is called "special flour" it was a little less than the KASL... I did find enough people to make the hundred dollar minimum purchase. One thing about GS foods is they carry other stuff too , so you don't have to buy $100 worth of flour you could buy some meat, rice, whatever. That's all I have to say about GS foods a great place and I understand why they have $100 minimum to keep the walk-in traffic to a minimum. I'm just glad that they will sell to the public.

PS call the order in the day before that way you want have to wait for them to fill the order. When you get there.
Guts/AKA/Kim
"Vegetarian - old Indian word for bad fisherman"

Offline PapaJon

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Re: Question re: Storage of flour
« Reply #14 on: February 25, 2011, 01:25:49 PM »
Jon, please tell me that you didn't buy $100 worth of KASL. Please  :(
HAHAHA!  I just saw this response, no I didn't thank goodness.  A better deal fell in my lap which I think you already know about from other posts.
I have been freezing my flour in ziplock bags.  It seems to work just fine.  Never had a problem.
Scott D.
Scott D., can you elaborate?  Do you keep the flour in the freezer until you use it, or do you remove it from the freezer after a period of time?  We have a second fridge w/ top freezer in the garage and it's currently packed with 40lbs of AT non-bromated flour.  My lovely wife who rarely opens this discovered my treasure trove the other day and complained she had no place to put the X, Y, & Z she had counted on storing there.  Oops.  In addition I have err...umm....hmmm two more 50lb sacks (long story) of other flour I need to consider what to do with.  I think I read somewhere of someone freezing the flour, removing for a week, re-freezing, removing for a week, re-freezing and then storing in an airtight container (still zip locked).  The reasoning was to kill off live pests, allow for eggs to hatch, kill off those pest, allow for more eggs hatch, kill those etc and eventually kill off all live or soon to hatch pests.  The in depth consideration and thinking behind that process slightly dampens my appetite, but the reasoning sounds solid, and for the good of pizza I will conveniently forget where SOME of the protein in the flour comes from...   :-X

Additionally I heard that pest will not survive in a Co2 environment, and since I have a Co2 tank used for homebrew kegs, I'm wondering if I could somehow store the sacks, as is, in one of those big plastic storage tubs and fill it with Co2.  I'm thinking since Co2 is heavier than air, as long as there is no air leakage from below the rim of the tub I could create a fairly oxygen deprived environment for my flour to rest in.
Jon

scott123

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Re: Question re: Storage of flour
« Reply #15 on: February 25, 2011, 02:05:49 PM »
Maybe I missed something all the way, but I believe you can freeze flour once and it will kill everything off.  Peter should hopefully be by soon to fill in the details.

Being particles, I'm not sure how effective the CO2 will be at penetrating the flour, but, if you've got the CO2 available, you might as well top the storage containers off with it.

Regarding the extra 'protein' in flour, since becoming an Anthony Bourdain fan, I've started to look at these things through differently tinted glasses  8)

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Question re: Storage of flour
« Reply #16 on: February 25, 2011, 06:15:34 PM »
Maybe I missed something all the way, but I believe you can freeze flour once and it will kill everything off.  Peter should hopefully be by soon to fill in the details.

Here in Texas I am prone to getting weevils in my flours. So, I freeze the flour before putting it back in my pantry. I don't buy 50-lb bags anymore but the last time I did I divided the flour from the large bag into 5-lb batches and froze them in zip-type plastic bags for about 3-4 days. As I noted previously in Reply 26 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,2264.msg54099/topicseen.html#msg54099, according to Tom Lehmann, for a 50-lb bag one should freeze the bag for 45 days if it is to be frozen all at once. In my opinion, it is important to freeze the flour before returning to the pantry. Once weevils start to hatch, they can eat through a flour bag and infest other flours or grains, and even rice (there may also be weevil eggs in organic rice), cereals, pasta and cornmeal. I have seen flour bags riddled with Al Capone-like holes. With light infestations, I will sift the flour to remove some of the weevils. As has been noted, the weevils add extra protein but that may not be particulaly comforting to those around you who will end up eating your pizzas or breads. Beyond light infestations, I would discard the flour. Once weevils set up housekeeping, they are hard to get rid of.

If PapaJon is interested in how the weevil eggs manage to get into the flour and escape efforts to rid them or at least reduce their numbers, see Tom Lehmann's post at the PMQ Think Tank at http://thinktank.pmq.com/viewtopic.php?p=59145#p59145.

A commonly espoused home remedy is to use bay leaves. However, as Craig recently mentioned in Reply 10 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,12864.msg124792/topicseen.html#msg124792, in Texas the bugs laugh at bay leaves. I can't say that I have been able to actually hear them laughing, but bay leaves have never worked for me either. I was once told by member Randy that the bay leaves had to put in with the flour before the eggs start to hatch. My recollection is that that didn't do the trick either when I tried it.

Peter

Offline Saturday Coffee

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Re: Question re: Storage of flour
« Reply #17 on: April 26, 2011, 11:03:00 AM »
Here in Texas I am prone to getting weevils in my flours. So, I freeze the flour before putting it back in my pantry. With light infestations, I will sift the flour to remove some of the weevils.  ... ...

I added Bay Leaves to the flours I am not using today - are two bay leaves enough for a 5 lb bag? 

I know they have weevils in other states I have lived in, but I only saw them here in Texas.  Early last year, I purchased a bag of Bob's Redmill something or other at HEB for immediate use and it was filled with a whole colony of weevils -- extra protein or not - I promptly returned all the flour I bought from that particular store. 

I try to keep only a minimal amount of flour on hand, plus some in the freezer and purchase the rest as needed.  HEB flour prices are much cheaper than Randall's (Safeway).  I now shop at the newer HEB on I-10 @ Bunker Hill; they are always crowded so I am sure the flour is rotated or re-stocked frequently.

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Question re: Storage of flour
« Reply #18 on: April 26, 2011, 04:12:33 PM »
I added Bay Leaves to the flours I am not using today - are two bay leaves enough for a 5 lb bag? 

Saturday Coffee,

My position on the placing bay leaves in with the flour is as Craig stated it at Reply 10 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,12864.msg124792/topicseen.html#msg124792. I have tried bay leaves after bugs have infested my flour as well as before (on the theory that the bugs would be deterred), to no avail. Tom Lehmann says that there is a machine called an entilator (I could not find more information on a piece equipment by that name) that is supposed to pulverize eggs in flour during milling. Maybe that reduces the number of insect eggs in flour but it does not seem to get rid of all of them.

Peter

Offline PapaJon

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Re: Question re: Storage of flour
« Reply #19 on: April 26, 2011, 05:45:30 PM »
Tom Lehmann says that there is a machine called an entilator (I could not find more information on a piece equipment by that name) that is supposed to pulverize eggs in flour during milling.

Hey Pete, try searching under entoleter (not entilator)   >:D

As an update on the 150lbs of flour I came by, I was able to get 50lbs in my spare freezer in 5lb zip locking bags and the other 2 50lb sacks are still sitting on my work bench in the garage...  I'm praying the weevils will go easy on me.

Edit:  For milling process diagram see here
« Last Edit: April 26, 2011, 05:49:14 PM by PapaJon »
Jon