Author Topic: Pendleton Power vs Smart & Final High Gluten  (Read 2186 times)

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Offline Pizza De Puta

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Pendleton Power vs Smart & Final High Gluten
« on: August 15, 2012, 12:37:19 PM »
I just finished my first 25 lb bag of Smart and Final High Gluten Flour--all hand kneeded, no mixer.  I then opened and used my first sampling of Pendleton Power High Gluten flour purchased at Cash and Carry.  I noticed that the S&F brand gets very, very sticky and mushy at 63% hydration for about 7 minutes of kneeding then firms-up somewhat and loses its stickiness for the final 5 minutes of kneeding (12 total).  I've been happy with the crust produced.

The Pendleton Power is a much different animal.  It barely got sticky at 63% and was very firm almost immediately.  The ball stayed fairly dry throughout and had a lot of push-back during the kneeding process.  I'll let it ferment for 48 hours and let you know this weekend how it turned out.

Can anybody (like Pete) offer a scientific explanation for what I've observed and what I can expect from the Pendleton?
« Last Edit: August 15, 2012, 02:51:10 PM by Pizza De Puta »
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Offline Aimless Ryan

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Re: Pendleton Power vs Smart & Final High Gluten
« Reply #1 on: August 15, 2012, 12:40:13 PM »
I noticed that the S&M brand gets very, very sticky and mushy at 63% hydration for about 7 minutes of kneeding then firms-up somewhat and loses its stickiness for the final 5 minutes of kneeding (12 total).

Ewww!

Offline scott123

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Re: Pendleton Power vs Smart & Final High Gluten
« Reply #2 on: August 15, 2012, 01:27:06 PM »
I don't have the specs for the S&M, but, obviously, from this behavior, the Power Flour contains more protein than the S&M.  With more protein, more gluten is produced.  Gluten traps water and makes a dough feel less sticky.

Gluten also is formed via kneading- that's why the S&M starts off sticky (untrapped water), but loses that stickiness as you knead it.

For a 48 hour fermented NY style dough, I don't think you need 12 minutes of kneading.  Time is a kneading equivalent.  The dough doesn't need to be perfectly smooth going into the fridge. You don't want a cottage cheese appearance, but you don't want smooth either. Somewhere between the two.  Kneading less also helps to create a slightly more irregular crumb which helps to provide a bit more character to the crust.

Bulk ferments are rarely used in NY pizzerias, but, after seeing, first hand, what re-balling can do, I'm now a bulk proponent.  If you incorporate a bulk, then you want to dial back the kneading a little bit more, as balling a fully hydrated dough seems to develop more gluten than balling a just mixed one. Gluten sensitivity, from my perspective, seems to increase as the dough has a chance to fully hydrate.

Offline Aimless Ryan

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Re: Pendleton Power vs Smart & Final High Gluten
« Reply #3 on: August 15, 2012, 01:42:04 PM »
Bulk ferments are rarely used in NY pizzerias, but, after seeing, first hand, what re-balling can do, I'm now a bulk proponent.  If you incorporate a bulk, then you want to dial back the kneading a little bit more, as balling a fully hydrated dough seems to develop more gluten than balling a just mixed one. Gluten sensitivity, from my perspective, seems to increase as the dough has a chance to fully hydrate.

I'm very surprised to hear this from you. To me bulk fermenting is one of the easiest and most common ways to ruin what might have become a good NY style pizza.

Also... S&F, not S&M.

Offline scott123

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Re: Pendleton Power vs Smart & Final High Gluten
« Reply #4 on: August 15, 2012, 02:03:04 PM »
Ryan, because of their lack of authenticity, I was a highly critical opponent of bulk ferments and re-balls, until John (Fazzari) chiseled away at my resolve, I tried a re-ball myself and found the results to be superior.

http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,16761.0.html

Bulks and re-balls are basically the same thing.  One's a mid fermentation ball, the other a mid fermentation re-ball. Something about balling after a good dose of CO2 has been formed seems to produce better spring.

The other hugely beneficial aspect of bulks is that, in commercial settings where walk-in space might be limited, bulks can be an invaluable way of giving the dough more time/flavor, without sacrificing as much space. It's very rare that you find a walk-in that can handle 3 days worth of dough balls, but a single day and two bulks, no problem.

Bulk, ftw  ;D

Offline Aimless Ryan

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Re: Pendleton Power vs Smart & Final High Gluten
« Reply #5 on: August 15, 2012, 02:08:51 PM »
Bulks and re-balls are basically the same thing.

Yeah. I don't re-ball, either.

Gonna look at that thread you linked to now. Maybe it'll convert me, but I doubt it.

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Pendleton Power vs Smart & Final High Gluten
« Reply #6 on: August 15, 2012, 02:50:35 PM »
Can anybody (like Pete) offer a scientific explanation for what I've observed and what I can expect from the Pendleton?


RE,

I am not familiar with the specs for the Smart & Final high-gluten flour but, as noted at page 8 of the Pendleton booklet at http://www.pfmills.com/filebin/pdf/technical_informational_booklet_v1-opt.pdf, the Pendleton Power high-gluten flour has a protein content of 13.5% and a rated absorption value of 65% (based on a 14% moisture content). The 13.5% protein content is about 0.5-0.7% less than most high-protein flours yet its rated absorption value is about 2% higher than most high-gluten flours. I once had an exchange with a Pendleton Mills employee (a technical sales manager) who confirmed the 65% absorption value and said that one could "get quite a bit more water in at the bowl with Power, and better hydration as well". I also spoke with a technical staff member at a Pendleton milling facility in Idaho who told me that the reason for the higher rated absorption value for the Power flour was the nature and quality of the grains from which the Power flour is milled. You can see form the technical description for the Power flour at http://www.pfmills.com/power-flour-products-1.php that the Power flour is milled from "Northern hard red spring wheat".

In terms of gluten content, as you will see from the Master gluten mass test list I prepared at Reply 70 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,18075.msg184661.html#msg184661, which was based mostly on gluten mass tests that Norma conducted, the Pendleton Power flour falls at about the middle of the pack of high-gluten flours. Gluten mass tests conducted in a home setting are not as accurate as gluten mass tests conducted on a Glutomatic system, but they are good enough for our analytical purposes. In the case of the Power flour, if it is a high quality flour, its gluten is also likely to be of high quality.

In short, you have a very good flour, arguably one of the best.

Peter

Offline Pizza De Puta

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Re: Pendleton Power vs Smart & Final High Gluten
« Reply #7 on: August 15, 2012, 02:57:34 PM »
The 13.5% protein content is about 0.5-0.7% less than most high-protein flours yet its rated absorption value is about 2% higher than most high-gluten flours. I once had an exchange with a Pendleton Mills employee (a technical sales manager) who confirmed the 65% absorption value and said that one could "get quite a bit more water in at the bowl with Power, and better hydration as well".

In short, you have a very good flour, arguably one of the best.

Peter

Thank you.  Does this mean it is worth a try to increase my hydration from 63% to 65% with this particular flour?

RE (pronounced Arie)
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Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Pendleton Power vs Smart & Final High Gluten
« Reply #8 on: August 15, 2012, 03:14:31 PM »
Thank you.  Does this mean it is worth a try to increase my hydration from 63% to 65% with this particular flour?

RE,

If you can handle a dough with 65% hydration for the given pizza sizes that you want to make, I think it would be worth trying a hydration of 65% with the Power flour. We have had a few members who have commercially made skins for NY style pizzas using a hydration of 65% (Terry Deane--or tdeane on the forum--comes to mind) but it does come with its challenges, particularly when trying to open up dough balls to 18". Skins at 65% hydration can be quite extensible and gravity plays a greater role than in smaller sized pizzas. A lot of pizzerias don't go so high with their hydration because you need skilled and experienced workers to handle dough at that hydration.

Peter

Offline Pizza De Puta

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Re: Pendleton Power vs Smart & Final High Gluten
« Reply #9 on: August 15, 2012, 04:39:11 PM »
I went ahead and made another Pendleton Power 18" doughball by hand.  Using 64% Hydration.

The PP at 64% handled much like the S&F Hi Gluten at 61%.

At 64% the PP got very sticky at 30 seconds and this lasted for 3 minutes when it started to become less sticky and more uniform.  At 6 minutes kneading, my kneading hand was clean of dough and I finished kneading earlier than I had been doing for a total of just 9 minutes start to finish and 83 degrees on the finished ball as it was immediately put in the fridge.

At 61%, the S&F would be sticky after a minute and remain so consistently until the 7 minute mark, becoming clean by the 10 minute mark of kneading.  I kneaded for a full 12 minutes with this one.  Had I used 64% hydration with this particular flour, I would have had a mud pie on my hands.

I won't have cooking results until Friday night between the two flours.  However, after working with both flours and making dough by hand, I suspect that the PP is the superior of the two.

I might add that I went by a tile store this past weekend and bought a 4' broken chunk of polished granite.  Used as a kneading surface ($35), this is a real pleasure to work dough on compared to the wooden kitchen chopping board I was using previously.
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Offline scott123

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Re: Pendleton Power vs Smart & Final High Gluten
« Reply #10 on: August 15, 2012, 04:55:27 PM »
RE, the Pendleton will produce superior results.

At 13.5% protein, the Power Flour is, imo, a little high for an ideal slice. Many NY slices these days are 14% (and incredibly chewy), but some of the legendary places go closer to 13%. My suggestion would be to get your hands on some Mondako (also from Pendleton) and blend them- 66% Power/33% Mondako.

I used to think that for Californians, Pendleton was the only option, but Marlon's results with Central Milling are making me rethink that.  I think that's the list, though.  I would definitely avoid all trumps unbromated.

Btw, just as a frame of reference for kneading cold fermented dough- I knead, by hand, 2 minutes. Let the fridge do the heavy lifting.

Offline Essen1

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Re: Pendleton Power vs Smart & Final High Gluten
« Reply #11 on: August 16, 2012, 12:35:35 AM »
RE, the Pendleton will produce superior results.



There's nothing to add to Scotty's statement. I found that PPF produces the best results at a hydration rate of 65%. For a home oven that is.

It is probably the best flour on the market today that's unbromated but delivers close results to the All Trumps bromated flour.
Mike

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Offline Pizza De Puta

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Re: Pendleton Power vs Smart & Final High Gluten
« Reply #12 on: August 16, 2012, 04:08:21 PM »
OK, Scott.  I went over to C&C and picked-up some Mondako.  I mixed the Power to Mondako 2:1 and made one 63% hydration ball and one 64% hydration ball, each will make an 18" pizza.  I like the way the Pendleton products feel to the hand, it'll be interesting to see how they open-up and taste.
« Last Edit: August 16, 2012, 04:11:02 PM by Pizza De Puta »
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Offline Pizza De Puta

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Re: Pendleton Power vs Smart & Final High Gluten
« Reply #13 on: August 18, 2012, 01:58:48 AM »
First batch of Pendleton Power dough hit the oven today.  I had two dough balls, one at 63% hydration and the other 64%.  Both had 48 hours to cold ferment.  I goofed and only gave them 30 minutes to warm up out of the frig.  Also baked was a 63% hydrated Smart and Final high gluten based dough.

The Power dough was much easier to work.  My taste testers also liked the taste of the Power pizzas with the 63% version being preferred.  The S&F pizza was lighter and had a little better spring from the oven but was a pain to handle on the make table and the center came out a gooey after the bake.  The Pendleton product is definitely superior to the S&F counterpart, but it will take a few trials to dial-in the Power.

The next pizza test in a couple of days will involve pizzas made with Power/Mondako blends.  Hopefully with a longer warm-up and a blend optimized for the NY style, we'll see pizzas with a better spring and a little lighter in composition, but still retaining the flavor that the taste testers liked on the first bake.
« Last Edit: August 18, 2012, 02:00:53 AM by Pizza De Puta »
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Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Pendleton Power vs Smart & Final High Gluten
« Reply #14 on: August 18, 2012, 07:30:38 AM »
RE,

Out of curiosity, I ran the two Pendleton flour numbers through the Mixed Mass Percentage Calculator at http://foodsim.unclesalmon.com/ to calculate the percent protein in your blend of 2/3 Power flour with a protein content of 13.5% and 1/3 Mondako flour with a protein content of 11.9%. In using the calculator, I used the entry fields below the pull down menus for the protein percent numbers, and I put 100 grams in the Mass box. The protein content of the blend according to the calculator is 12.9672%. If you decide to play around with the relative percents, the calculator is a very good tool to do that. Most places tend not to use blends (other than premixes) because it is an extra step and the flours have to be weighed. It is far easier to just empty a full bag of flour into the mixer. The Power flour comes in four bag sizes--30 pounds (bleached) and in 25, 32 and 50 pound bags (unbleached). The Mondako flour comes in 32 and 50 pound bags, and both are bleached. With those numbers, it does not look like you can just pick one full bag of each to get the desired final protein content of the blend while staying within the capacity of your mixer.

To the above I would only add that I have been told that there are a lot of pizza places on the Left Coast that use just the Mondako flour (http://www.pfmills.com/mondako-flour-products-2.php) for their pizzas.

It looks like you have a lot of latitude to play around with the flours.

Peter

Offline Pizza De Puta

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Re: Pendleton Power vs Smart & Final High Gluten
« Reply #15 on: August 20, 2012, 09:07:50 AM »
The results are in and the 2:1 Pendleton Power/Mankato is a winner.  The finished crust is lighter, more airy, and less chewy that a batch made with straight Power.  The dough stretches nicely and launches off the peel with less of a tendency to stick than the S&F flour.  I will try a 50/50 mix of Power/Mankato next time as this ratio would make the recipe more simple to replicate on the daily production schedule of a restaurant environment.

In short, this thread can be ended with the conclusion that there really is no comparison between S&F and Pendleton flours, in my mind.  The S&F high gluten flour is a low-cost product that is satisfactory on its best day.  For home baking in a kitchen oven its OK, but just OK, and I wouldn't think about using it for market.  The S&F tends to over-hydrate easily, is sticky for a long time on the kneading table, and wants to cling to the peel like an octopus despite tons of bench flour and semolina.  Tearing was commonplace both in stretching, dressing, and launching.  I had a mess on my hands more times than I'd like to confess (admittedly my fault sometimes).

The Pendleton flours have a quality feel on the kneading table and can be hydrated right up to 65% without getting soupy or losing integrity.  A couple of minutes of kneading and this dough develops some real character and begins to push back.  This bit of attitude is maintained during proof and stretching.  Pendleton bakes-up light, airy, full of flavor and is restaurant quality all the way.  I can readily find Pendleton flours in my area, 50# sacks are less than $20, so my search for finding the optimum flour is over.  My pizza crust quality has taken a quantum leap forward with the simple change to Pendleton.
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Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Pendleton Power vs Smart & Final High Gluten
« Reply #16 on: August 20, 2012, 09:52:48 AM »
RE,

That is good news.

I don't know if you can get access to all sizes of the bags of flour sold by Pendleton, but if your mixer can handle 62 pounds of flour, you could blend one 30-pound bag of the Power flour and one 32-pound bag of the Mondako (both are bleached, BTW) and end up with a blend that is 12.7258% protein. That is roughly the protein content of the King Arthur Bread flour. Whether the Power/Mondako blend (48.39%/51.61%) can handle 65% hydration would have to be tested.

Peter

Offline Pizza De Puta

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Re: Pendleton Power vs Smart & Final High Gluten
« Reply #17 on: August 20, 2012, 10:53:46 AM »
you could blend one 30-pound bag of the Power flour and one 32-pound bag of the Mondako.

Since bags of flour have a considerable amount of variance when it comes to weight, weighing before mixing will be necessary in order to get the necessary precision and consistency required for market. Therefore, the weights of each bag probably aren't that important since we'll have to scoup and weigh flour anyway.  So, just buying 50 lb sacks of everything on pallets is probably the cheapest, most convenient way to go.
« Last Edit: August 20, 2012, 10:55:33 AM by Pizza De Puta »
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