Author Topic: Pictures of pseudo Neapolitan Pizza  (Read 11654 times)

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Offline italdream

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Re: Pictures of pseudo Neapolitan Pizza
« Reply #40 on: August 16, 2012, 05:27:32 PM »
By the way, the disciplinare di produzione is not just "guidelines". In Europe, you must follow those rules to legally sell pizza that is called pizza napoletana, or more precisely "pizza napoletana stg" (where stg is SPECIALIT└ TRADIZIONALE GARANTITA, i.e. guaranteed traditional specialty).

For many parameters, the disciplinare provides ranges. A range is not merely a guideline. Only for the temperatures, it says "approximately": circa.

However It says nothing about blistering. We can rely on evidence of pizzas from the best places and they show variations. This is the opposite of what you are saying, that blistering can only be one way.

I would agree that a burned pizza is a burned pizza, that a bad dough is a bad dough and that a bad dough would likely not give "consistent" blistering. I also know from experience how hard it is to walk that line, without using proper equipment.

However, enough with this fantasy of blisters or "leoparding" of the right size.
« Last Edit: August 16, 2012, 05:31:51 PM by italdream »


Offline shuboyje

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Re: Pictures of pseudo Neapolitan Pizza
« Reply #41 on: August 16, 2012, 05:45:40 PM »
Here we go again.  Marco FINALLY steps out from behind the curtain and contributes to the forum and before the last word is even typed the same attitudes that have silenced him in the past rear their ugly heads.  I understand that people have a freedom to voice their opinions here within reason, but I wish some members could simply look away if they don't like what he says so the rest of us could have a chance to learn from him.  Like him or not he has proven time and time again he is the foremost expert on pretty much all things Neapolitan that most of us will ever have access to.
-Jeff

Offline pizzanapoletana

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Re: Pictures of pseudo Neapolitan Pizza
« Reply #42 on: August 16, 2012, 05:46:51 PM »
I was a kid but I remember the pre '80s in Naples.  

Anyway, I can see your point and how quality would go down. That is sad.

Re toppings, I am no fan of Da Michele's fundamentalist choice of Marinara-Margherita only. I have had great capricciosa and others at Di Matteo, recently Presidente etc. I know that it would break my heart seeing a pineapple-topped pizza in Naples.

The focus on topping now is a trend on using specialty, deli level products that ofte overpower the base. I tend to prefer simple pizza but do occasionally order and eat more loaded versions, my motto is eat simple when the dough is great, over top when is not

scott123

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Re: Pictures of pseudo Neapolitan Pizza
« Reply #43 on: August 16, 2012, 05:51:25 PM »
Scott 123, do not put word in my mouth as I have not used offensive language. I said in the past why I would not fully explain things, so your provocative questions wont change that. I know many people that do not even know how to mix a dough and they can detect the effect of such defective doughs on the pizza...

Past, no past, book, no book-  No authoritative member of this forum has the right to say "do this, but I won't explain why" or "take my word for it."  History has seen too much misinformation being spread from a "take my word for it" perspective.  I, personally, don't like big spots, but that's my own opinion and it has little to do with crumb structure. The bottom line is that I don't disagree with you, I just want to understand why.

If preserving the best aspects of Neapolitan pizza culture is important to you, and it certainly looks like this is/has been your goal, then you cannot, when asked why a certain thing needs to be done the way it's done, simply say "No, I will not explain that to you."  What's more important, your book, your consulting fees or your culture?

Offline pizzanapoletana

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Re: Pictures of pseudo Neapolitan Pizza
« Reply #44 on: August 16, 2012, 05:53:54 PM »
By the way, the disciplinare di produzione is not just "guidelines". In Europe, you must follow those rules to legally sell pizza that is called pizza napoletana, or more precisely "pizza napoletana stg" (where stg is SPECIALIT└ TRADIZIONALE GARANTITA, i.e. guaranteed traditional specialty).

For many parameters, the disciplinare provides ranges. A range is not merely a guideline. Only for the temperatures, it says "approximately": circa.

However It says nothing about blistering. We can rely on evidence of pizzas from the best places and they show variations. This is the opposite of what you are saying, that blistering can only be one way.

I would agree that a burned pizza is a burned pizza, that a bad dough is a bad dough and that a bad dough would likely not give "consistent" blistering. I also know from experience how hard it is to walk that line, without using proper equipment.

However, enough with this fantasy of blisters or "leoparding" of the right size.

The leoparding blistering or whatever you want to call it is not a fantasy.

The stg is a guideline as even members with stg sign on the door Dough methodology vary a great degree from this guideline and that is acceptable. I am lucky enough to be able to live those things rather then just read it. I was the one that had the crisceto (natural starter) included in the final version and have made few enemies at the time because of that (have a letter from the Ministry of Agricolture to prove that).

Have a good day

Offline Chicago Bob

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Re: Pictures of pseudo Neapolitan Pizza
« Reply #45 on: August 16, 2012, 05:56:28 PM »
I don't get it when some refer to the "attitude" problem...people communicate in different ways...sort of a cultural thing...not everybody comes from the same place....
"Care Free Highway...let me slip away on you"

Offline BrickStoneOven

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Re: Pictures of pseudo Neapolitan Pizza
« Reply #46 on: August 16, 2012, 06:02:20 PM »
I don't get it when some refer to the "attitude" problem...people communicate in different ways...sort of a cultural thing...not everybody comes from the same place....
Yea but there is a civility that everyone should have when talking to people on or off the internet, which has gone down a few rungs on this forum lately.

Offline pizzanapoletana

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Re: Pictures of pseudo Neapolitan Pizza
« Reply #47 on: August 16, 2012, 06:04:49 PM »
Past, no past, book, no book-  No authoritative member of this forum has the right to say "do this, but I won't explain why" or "take my word for it."  History has seen too much misinformation being spread from a "take my word for it" perspective.  I, personally, don't like big spots, but that's my own opinion and it has little to do with crumb structure. The bottom line is that I don't disagree with you, I just want to understand why.

If preserving the best aspects of Neapolitan pizza culture is important to you, and it certainly looks like this is/has been your goal, then you cannot, when asked why a certain thing needs to be done the way it's done, simply say "No, I will not explain that to you."  What's more important, your book, your consulting fees or your culture?
Nice try. Did not say do this, I was actually say do not do it!

Again those big blister indicate a bad dough , so even in other type of leavening products and with different manifestation, indicate bad dough and is not unique to pizza Napoletana but from a baking science and technology point of view, it is a defect and respect to my clients is more important to me as demonstrated here things get misconstrued and some become expert with bad knowledge that get then passes on and some time even sold as good. I should have stayed quite, make everyone believe that if large diffuse blistering was achieved it was a good thing, and a new trend for bad dough production been established so that when the few good guy come along and do the right product and clients can finally TASTE and FeEL the differences, success is assured

Offline italdream

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Re: Pictures of pseudo Neapolitan Pizza
« Reply #48 on: August 16, 2012, 06:09:11 PM »
Btw, I want to say that I like the fact that people are passionate about their views. This is a forum about pizza, not quantum algebra or dental hygiene. People should be passionate. and Marco, I did not mean to offend you. I think that every person's contribution should be heard. Besides, I give for granted that you make a way better pizza than I do. So what am I left with if not arguing semantics?
« Last Edit: August 16, 2012, 06:13:05 PM by italdream »

Offline Chicago Bob

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Re: Pictures of pseudo Neapolitan Pizza
« Reply #49 on: August 16, 2012, 06:19:37 PM »
I should have stayed quite, make everyone believe that if large diffuse blistering was achieved it was a good thing, and a new trend for bad dough production been established so that when the few good guy come along and do the right product and clients can finally TASTE and FeEL the differences, success is assured

As I said...people are going to get it the way they want it...good for them.And good for you to have such honorable intensions. But like I also said...sometimes you are better off beating your head against the wall than to try an attempt to change the wheels that are already in motion...
"Care Free Highway...let me slip away on you"


scott123

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Re: Pictures of pseudo Neapolitan Pizza
« Reply #50 on: August 16, 2012, 06:25:27 PM »
Nice try. Did not say do this, I was actually say do not do it!

Again those big blister indicate a bad dough , so even in other type of leavening products and with different manifestation, indicate bad dough and is not unique to pizza Napoletana but from a baking science and technology point of view, it is a defect and respect to my clients is more important to me as demonstrated here things get misconstrued and some become expert with bad knowledge that get then passes on and some time even sold as good. I should have stayed quite, make everyone believe that if large diffuse blistering was achieved it was a good thing, and a new trend for bad dough production been established so that when the few good guy come along and do the right product and clients can finally TASTE and FeEL the differences, success is assured

Marco, you're not telling us why not to do it. If you're going to say 'don't do this,' and you want people to learn, you have to say why. 'Marco told us not to' will not convey this information as far as it should be going.  'Marco told us not to' doesn't preserve Neapolitan culture. Saying that the taste and texture are impaired tells us nothing.

You can teach dough science without betraying your clients. You can, through the information you disseminate, help to preserve Neapolitan culture, while not betraying your clients.  If what you say gets taken out of context, correct it. The world desperately needs people that are familiar with Neapolitan pizza and it's history to stand up and preserve it.  Do you think the VPN can do it? The VPN is a joke!

If you give answers, complete answers, as to questions such as how dough is damaged, you'll still have plenty of clients, your clients will still sell record breaking numbers of pizza, and, when the time comes, you'll sell plenty of books.

Offline Mangia Pizza

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Re: Pictures of pseudo Neapolitan Pizza
« Reply #51 on: August 16, 2012, 06:33:29 PM »
Marco, grazie mille per l'informazione via PM.  La tua PM box e' piena quindi ti ringrazio qui sul tuo thread.

Mi raccomando non demoralizarti, ma continua ad essere il professionista serio come hai gia' dimostrato.

Io nel frattempo comincio a leggere tutto quello che mi hai suggerito.

In bocca a lupo con il tuo business e consulenza!

Ciao.....
Paolo

Offline pizzanapoletana

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Re: Pictures of pseudo Neapolitan Pizza
« Reply #52 on: August 16, 2012, 06:34:47 PM »
VPN Naples has got in a much better place now then it was 6-8 years ago.

Good night everyone, have caused heated discussions, probably someone will start experimenting to change things other will ignore the pointers but No more post for me on this subject.

Ciao

scott123

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Re: Pictures of pseudo Neapolitan Pizza
« Reply #53 on: August 16, 2012, 06:52:59 PM »
VPN Naples has got in a much better place now then it was 6-8 years ago.

I'm talking about VPN America.

cornicione54

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Re: Pictures of pseudo Neapolitan Pizza
« Reply #54 on: August 16, 2012, 07:36:34 PM »
Passions aside, I think we have all at some point been helped by Marco's previous guidance on matters Neapolitan.
Marco, if I might be so bold as to suggest we turn this 'problem' on its head and address it in a more constructive way:

You've already stated that abnormal blister size is evidence of "defective dough".  Please could you tell us which defects in the dough mixing/fermentation/handling/baking are causing the blistering? In other words: how can we avoid the "defective"/large-blistering scenario you've highlighted?

Solutions rather than problems. ;)

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Pictures of pseudo Neapolitan Pizza
« Reply #55 on: August 16, 2012, 07:39:41 PM »
I can't speak for Steve, the owner and Administrator of this forum, on what he envisions the purpose and meaning of this forum to be, but as I see it, as a free and open forum, members should be free to participate as much or as little as they wish and to post as much or as little as they want. That may offend some, as it has in the case of Marco, but I do not believe that they have the right or the privilege to demand more disclosure of our members. In a similar vein, we have had many members try to get scott123 to show photos of his NY style pizzas, given the amount of forum time and advice he has devoted to that topic. In fact, so many members tried to get scott123 to do that, and the demands got so heated, that the thread in which this pressure was applied ended up being locked. As I see it, as with Marco for his commentary in this thread, it is scott123's prerogative to show photos of his pizzas. It's entirely up to him. People may draw inferences from scott123's decision to withhold photos of his pizzas, but that is his call.

Peter

Offline pizzaneer

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Re: Pictures of pseudo Neapolitan Pizza
« Reply #56 on: August 16, 2012, 07:56:42 PM »
OH boy. Threadlock happening in 1-2-3...
I'd rather eat one good meal a day than 3 squares of garbage.

Offline Mangia Pizza

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Re: Pictures of pseudo Neapolitan Pizza
« Reply #57 on: August 16, 2012, 08:11:48 PM »
I can't speak for Steve, the owner and Administrator of this forum, on what he envisions the purpose and meaning of this forum to be, but as I see it, as a free and open forum, members should be free to participate as much or as little as they wish and to post as much or as little as they want. That may offend some, as it has in the case of Marco, but I do not believe that they have the right or the privilege to demand more disclosure of our members. In a similar vein, we have had many members try to get scott123 to show photos of his NY style pizzas, given the amount of forum time and advice he has devoted to that topic. In fact, so many members tried to get scott123 to do that, and the demands got so heated, that the thread in which this pressure was applied ended up being locked. As I see it, as with Marco for his commentary in this thread, it is scott123's prerogative to show photos of his pizzas. It's entirely up to him. People may draw inferences from scott123's decision to withhold photos of his pizzas, but that is his call.

Peter

You mean scott123 has actually photos of his pizzas?

I thought he was just a commentator......
Paolo

scott123

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Re: Pictures of pseudo Neapolitan Pizza
« Reply #58 on: August 16, 2012, 08:14:16 PM »
Peter, I am here to try and preserve my culture.  My desire is to teach.  People oohing and aahing over my pizzas has absolutely no bearing on the information I'm attempting to convey. When people go out, purchase steel plate and make superior pizzas based on my advice, they don't say, "why did I take HIS advice, he has no photos!".  Questioning my credentials/contribution based on my lack of photos is an incredible insult. I may, at some point, write a book, but I would NEVER withhold knowledge, especially when that knowledge can help save my treasured pizza.

In other words, this is not a similar vein. I'm not attempting to force Marco to convey more information than he is willing to disclose, I am merely pointing out that lack of disclosure is not always the best path for preserving culture.  NY pizza guys have historically been very tight lipped about their process, and, in the process, great NY pizza is now almost dead. I'm not saying Neapolitan pizza is doomed to the same fate, but if Neapolitan pizza is to be preserved, it needs great teachers willing to openly share everything- and I can think of no better potentially great teacher than Marco.

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Pictures of pseudo Neapolitan Pizza
« Reply #59 on: August 16, 2012, 08:16:30 PM »
Yea but there is a civility that everyone should have when talking to people on or off the internet, which has gone down a few rungs on this forum lately.

OH boy. Threadlock happening in 1-2-3...

There have been more threads locked on this forum in the past month than in the past several years. Also, having recently received an above-average number of Report to Moderator emails and PMs from members expressing concern about the conduct of other members, it was inevitable that Steve would become apprised of that conduct. In fact, he tried to address the matter of member conduct in the thread at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,20272.msg199235.html#msg199235. It has been my experience that just about any topic posted in the Forum Info board gets almost no viewers. I wondered if that would be the case with Steve's post. As one can readily see, Steve's post has gotten just 136 page views in 16 days.

Peter


 

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