Author Topic: Pictures of pseudo Neapolitan Pizza  (Read 13302 times)

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scott123

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Re: Pictures of pseudo Neapolitan Pizza
« Reply #50 on: August 16, 2012, 06:25:27 PM »
Nice try. Did not say do this, I was actually say do not do it!

Again those big blister indicate a bad dough , so even in other type of leavening products and with different manifestation, indicate bad dough and is not unique to pizza Napoletana but from a baking science and technology point of view, it is a defect and respect to my clients is more important to me as demonstrated here things get misconstrued and some become expert with bad knowledge that get then passes on and some time even sold as good. I should have stayed quite, make everyone believe that if large diffuse blistering was achieved it was a good thing, and a new trend for bad dough production been established so that when the few good guy come along and do the right product and clients can finally TASTE and FeEL the differences, success is assured

Marco, you're not telling us why not to do it. If you're going to say 'don't do this,' and you want people to learn, you have to say why. 'Marco told us not to' will not convey this information as far as it should be going.  'Marco told us not to' doesn't preserve Neapolitan culture. Saying that the taste and texture are impaired tells us nothing.

You can teach dough science without betraying your clients. You can, through the information you disseminate, help to preserve Neapolitan culture, while not betraying your clients.  If what you say gets taken out of context, correct it. The world desperately needs people that are familiar with Neapolitan pizza and it's history to stand up and preserve it.  Do you think the VPN can do it? The VPN is a joke!

If you give answers, complete answers, as to questions such as how dough is damaged, you'll still have plenty of clients, your clients will still sell record breaking numbers of pizza, and, when the time comes, you'll sell plenty of books.


Offline Mangia Pizza

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Re: Pictures of pseudo Neapolitan Pizza
« Reply #51 on: August 16, 2012, 06:33:29 PM »
Marco, grazie mille per l'informazione via PM.  La tua PM box e' piena quindi ti ringrazio qui sul tuo thread.

Mi raccomando non demoralizarti, ma continua ad essere il professionista serio come hai gia' dimostrato.

Io nel frattempo comincio a leggere tutto quello che mi hai suggerito.

In bocca a lupo con il tuo business e consulenza!

Ciao.....
Paolo

Offline pizzanapoletana

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Re: Pictures of pseudo Neapolitan Pizza
« Reply #52 on: August 16, 2012, 06:34:47 PM »
VPN Naples has got in a much better place now then it was 6-8 years ago.

Good night everyone, have caused heated discussions, probably someone will start experimenting to change things other will ignore the pointers but No more post for me on this subject.

Ciao

scott123

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Re: Pictures of pseudo Neapolitan Pizza
« Reply #53 on: August 16, 2012, 06:52:59 PM »
VPN Naples has got in a much better place now then it was 6-8 years ago.

I'm talking about VPN America.

cornicione54

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Re: Pictures of pseudo Neapolitan Pizza
« Reply #54 on: August 16, 2012, 07:36:34 PM »
Passions aside, I think we have all at some point been helped by Marco's previous guidance on matters Neapolitan.
Marco, if I might be so bold as to suggest we turn this 'problem' on its head and address it in a more constructive way:

You've already stated that abnormal blister size is evidence of "defective dough".  Please could you tell us which defects in the dough mixing/fermentation/handling/baking are causing the blistering? In other words: how can we avoid the "defective"/large-blistering scenario you've highlighted?

Solutions rather than problems. ;)

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Pictures of pseudo Neapolitan Pizza
« Reply #55 on: August 16, 2012, 07:39:41 PM »
I can't speak for Steve, the owner and Administrator of this forum, on what he envisions the purpose and meaning of this forum to be, but as I see it, as a free and open forum, members should be free to participate as much or as little as they wish and to post as much or as little as they want. That may offend some, as it has in the case of Marco, but I do not believe that they have the right or the privilege to demand more disclosure of our members. In a similar vein, we have had many members try to get scott123 to show photos of his NY style pizzas, given the amount of forum time and advice he has devoted to that topic. In fact, so many members tried to get scott123 to do that, and the demands got so heated, that the thread in which this pressure was applied ended up being locked. As I see it, as with Marco for his commentary in this thread, it is scott123's prerogative to show photos of his pizzas. It's entirely up to him. People may draw inferences from scott123's decision to withhold photos of his pizzas, but that is his call.

Peter

Offline pizzaneer

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Re: Pictures of pseudo Neapolitan Pizza
« Reply #56 on: August 16, 2012, 07:56:42 PM »
OH boy. Threadlock happening in 1-2-3...
I'd rather eat one good meal a day than 3 squares of garbage.

Offline Mangia Pizza

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Re: Pictures of pseudo Neapolitan Pizza
« Reply #57 on: August 16, 2012, 08:11:48 PM »
I can't speak for Steve, the owner and Administrator of this forum, on what he envisions the purpose and meaning of this forum to be, but as I see it, as a free and open forum, members should be free to participate as much or as little as they wish and to post as much or as little as they want. That may offend some, as it has in the case of Marco, but I do not believe that they have the right or the privilege to demand more disclosure of our members. In a similar vein, we have had many members try to get scott123 to show photos of his NY style pizzas, given the amount of forum time and advice he has devoted to that topic. In fact, so many members tried to get scott123 to do that, and the demands got so heated, that the thread in which this pressure was applied ended up being locked. As I see it, as with Marco for his commentary in this thread, it is scott123's prerogative to show photos of his pizzas. It's entirely up to him. People may draw inferences from scott123's decision to withhold photos of his pizzas, but that is his call.

Peter

You mean scott123 has actually photos of his pizzas?

I thought he was just a commentator......
Paolo

scott123

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Re: Pictures of pseudo Neapolitan Pizza
« Reply #58 on: August 16, 2012, 08:14:16 PM »
Peter, I am here to try and preserve my culture.  My desire is to teach.  People oohing and aahing over my pizzas has absolutely no bearing on the information I'm attempting to convey. When people go out, purchase steel plate and make superior pizzas based on my advice, they don't say, "why did I take HIS advice, he has no photos!".  Questioning my credentials/contribution based on my lack of photos is an incredible insult. I may, at some point, write a book, but I would NEVER withhold knowledge, especially when that knowledge can help save my treasured pizza.

In other words, this is not a similar vein. I'm not attempting to force Marco to convey more information than he is willing to disclose, I am merely pointing out that lack of disclosure is not always the best path for preserving culture.  NY pizza guys have historically been very tight lipped about their process, and, in the process, great NY pizza is now almost dead. I'm not saying Neapolitan pizza is doomed to the same fate, but if Neapolitan pizza is to be preserved, it needs great teachers willing to openly share everything- and I can think of no better potentially great teacher than Marco.


Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Pictures of pseudo Neapolitan Pizza
« Reply #59 on: August 16, 2012, 08:16:30 PM »
Yea but there is a civility that everyone should have when talking to people on or off the internet, which has gone down a few rungs on this forum lately.

OH boy. Threadlock happening in 1-2-3...

There have been more threads locked on this forum in the past month than in the past several years. Also, having recently received an above-average number of Report to Moderator emails and PMs from members expressing concern about the conduct of other members, it was inevitable that Steve would become apprised of that conduct. In fact, he tried to address the matter of member conduct in the thread at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,20272.msg199235.html#msg199235. It has been my experience that just about any topic posted in the Forum Info board gets almost no viewers. I wondered if that would be the case with Steve's post. As one can readily see, Steve's post has gotten just 136 page views in 16 days.

Peter

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Pictures of pseudo Neapolitan Pizza
« Reply #60 on: August 16, 2012, 08:41:29 PM »
Peter, I am here to try and preserve my culture.  My desire is to teach.  People oohing and aahing over my pizzas has absolutely no bearing on the information I'm attempting to convey. When people go out, purchase steel plate and make superior pizzas based on my advice, they don't say, "why did I take HIS advice, he has no photos!".  Questioning my credentials/contribution based on my lack of photos is an incredible insult. I may, at some point, write a book, but I would NEVER withhold knowledge, especially when that knowledge can help save my treasured pizza.

In other words, this is not a similar vein. I'm not attempting to force Marco to convey more information than he is willing to disclose, I am merely pointing out that lack of disclosure is not always the best path for preserving culture.  NY pizza guys have historically been very tight lipped about their process, and, in the process, great NY pizza is now almost dead. I'm not saying Neapolitan pizza is doomed to the same fate, but if Neapolitan pizza is to be preserved, it needs great teachers willing to openly share everything- and I can think of no better potentially great teacher than Marco.

scott123,

I hear where you are coming from but it is human nature for people to want confirmation of one's skills and knowledge, especially from those who hold themselves out as having those skills and knowledge. Words alone are sometimes just not enough. They want proof, and nothing less will satisfy them. Some people entirely escape this demand. For example, I have been reading Tom Lehmann's articles and posts for about 10 years. I don't think that I have ever seen him post a photo on anything, and I have never seen anyone press or demand that he post any photos. I suspect that his many years (actually decades) of experience in the baking and pizza making industries has given him a gravitas that spares him from having to prove himself to anyone. It has never bothered me that he didn't post photos.

Peter

Offline fornographer

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Re: Pictures of pseudo Neapolitan Pizza
« Reply #61 on: August 16, 2012, 08:57:52 PM »
I think this is a perfect example where the intention may have been for the good but the execution was terrible.  It could have been delivered in a clear and logical way much like how Craig recently posted about his entire process. 

It could have been delivered this way.

The recent posting of pictures of blistered pizzas my indicate problems with the dough because:

1) blah blah blah
2) blah blah blah
3) blah blah blah



Offline Chicago Bob

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Re: Pictures of pseudo Neapolitan Pizza
« Reply #62 on: August 16, 2012, 09:07:18 PM »
I think this is a perfect example where the intention may have been for the good but the execution was terrible.  It could have been delivered in a clear and logical way much like how Craig recently posted about his entire process. 

It could have been delivered this way.

The recent posting of pictures of blistered pizzas my indicate problems with the dough because:

1) blah blah blah
2) blah blah blah
3) blah blah blah



Yeah really,the man's oven side manner leaves a bit to be desired...that is what pretty much turned me off from the start, IMHO.
"Care Free Highway...let me slip away on you"

scott123

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Re: Pictures of pseudo Neapolitan Pizza
« Reply #63 on: August 16, 2012, 09:38:49 PM »
scott123,

I hear where you are coming from but it is human nature for people to want confirmation of one's skills and knowledge, especially from those who hold themselves out as having those skills and knowledge. Words alone are sometimes just not enough. They want proof, and nothing less will satisfy them.

Is it really 'people' Peter? So far, it's only one reputable member who's called me out on this. That's 'person' not 'people'. Unless you're calling me out, which I don't think you're doing. It's one thing to say "we'd love to see a photo", as a few members in the past have said, and something entirely different to say "if you don't post photos, your credentials will be questioned."

I, as of this moment, have no still camera- and no smart phone- and no family member with a smart phone I can borrow.  People like me DO exist.  I bought a flip camera earlier this year with the intent to shoot videos, but haven't been pleased with the photo quality.  If I had a still camera, this would have gotten done a long time ago. If I've disappointed anyone in my tardiness, I apologize. Regardless of my reasons, from this point forward, rather than keep people's hopes up and disappoint anyone further, I'm making this announcement.  Until further notice, I will NOT be posting photos. If this causes anyone to doubt my credentials, go ahead and doubt away. There are plenty of members here who don't.

Offline Tscarborough

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Re: Pictures of pseudo Neapolitan Pizza
« Reply #64 on: August 16, 2012, 09:44:04 PM »
I heartily apologize, Scott.  I really would like to see pictures of your pizzas, but it has no bearing upon the respect I have for you and your knowledge.  At any rate, no excuses, I am sorry.

Offline Chicago Bob

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Re: Pictures of pseudo Neapolitan Pizza
« Reply #65 on: August 16, 2012, 09:48:59 PM »
I have been thinking this same thing....the people Scott has helped never question him first,'I'll buy a steel plate but ya gotta post up some pics first man"...I even thought about saying, "maybe the man is handicapped or sum'thin an too embarrassed to talk about it"...I mean SHEEESH!! people...get on with your life!  Chicago Bob is try'in to jus have a 'lil fun here, ya know? Aren't you.... ;D
"Care Free Highway...let me slip away on you"

Offline jeff v

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Re: Pictures of pseudo Neapolitan Pizza
« Reply #66 on: August 16, 2012, 09:51:17 PM »
Marco is a professional in the fact that he has made is living at least partially from pizza for quite some time (as far as I know). He has posted pictures of pizza he's made, shared info on Neapolitan pizza and here when there was hardly any place to get it and on and on.

Tom Lehman, similar story. scott123, I'm not sure.

That and the fact that he (scott123) has been at involved in most of the blow ups around here lately are why people want to know more IMO.
Back to being a civilian pizza maker only.


scott123

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Re: Pictures of pseudo Neapolitan Pizza
« Reply #67 on: August 16, 2012, 10:02:55 PM »
I heartily apologize, Scott.  I really would like to see pictures of your pizzas, but it has no bearing upon the respect I have for you and your knowledge.  At any rate, no excuses, I am sorry.

Tom, I accept your apology.  Thank you. I apologize for the intensity of my reaction, both previously and in this thread.  Normally I can sort of shrug this stuff off, but with the respect I have for you and your knowledge, the comments hit a nerve.

Alright, I'll use the damn Flip camera next bake  ;D

scott123

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Re: Pictures of pseudo Neapolitan Pizza
« Reply #68 on: August 16, 2012, 10:07:10 PM »
Tom Lehman, similar story. scott123, I'm not sure.

I love you, too, Jeff  ;D

Now, is there any chance whatsoever that we can get this thread back on topic?  ;D I would still very much like to know how the taste and texture is negatively impacted by big spots? Andre, can you shed some light on this?

Offline pizzaboyfan

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Re: Pictures of pseudo Neapolitan Pizza
« Reply #69 on: August 16, 2012, 10:12:28 PM »
So, he doesn't have 10 years of pictures to release, and he asks us to trust his unseen  pizza experience  as qualifications to be a leader of a  pizza forum.

It's not like he's running for President.... >:D

Offline jeff v

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Re: Pictures of pseudo Neapolitan Pizza
« Reply #70 on: August 16, 2012, 10:15:27 PM »
I love you, too, Jeff  ;D

Now, is there any chance whatsoever that we can get this thread back on topic?  ;D I would still very much like to know how the taste and texture is negatively impacted by big spots? Andre, can you shed some light on this?

Agreed. About getting back on topic that is... :-[
Back to being a civilian pizza maker only.

Offline Chicago Bob

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Re: Pictures of pseudo Neapolitan Pizza
« Reply #71 on: August 16, 2012, 10:17:09 PM »
So, he doesn't have 10 years of pictures to release, and he asks us to trust his unseen  pizza experience  as qualifications to be a leader of a  pizza forum.

It's not like he's running for President.... >:D
Scott...? President...?    Hey man...I thought I was the leader.... :'(     >:D
"Care Free Highway...let me slip away on you"

Offline Mangia Pizza

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Re: Pictures of pseudo Neapolitan Pizza
« Reply #72 on: August 16, 2012, 10:18:24 PM »
I am new and I don't know anything about "la vera pizza napoletana", but I am guessing Marco will post a response on the impact of big spots just as
soon as we see some "professional" NY pizza photos....... (not that I care much about NY pizza.......)

But that is just my opinion.....probably worth less than 2 cents.....

Good night.....
Paolo

Offline Chicago Bob

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Re: Pictures of pseudo Neapolitan Pizza
« Reply #73 on: August 16, 2012, 10:19:48 PM »
Sleep tight Paolo.... :-*

I'll post some pics in the morning...
"Care Free Highway...let me slip away on you"

Offline ThatsAmore

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Re: Pictures of pseudo Neapolitan Pizza
« Reply #74 on: August 16, 2012, 10:20:30 PM »
Wow,

I was thinking of expanding out from the Cracker Crust into NY and/or NP, not so sure now.  Let me ask, do you use the peel with 8oz Everlast gloves or go bare fisted for either style ?  :-D

Who put that pie in my eye ?