Author Topic: Pictures of pseudo Neapolitan Pizza  (Read 11131 times)

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Offline pizzanapoletana

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Pictures of pseudo Neapolitan Pizza
« on: August 16, 2012, 07:52:26 AM »
Hi,

I have been very controversial e/o straight forward in the past and have since avoided all together  posting comments on certain topics, for many reasons as well as also some people on these boards did not recognise my contruibution... However, in pictures posted both in this section (Neapolitan Style), in the Restaurant review and occasionaly other parts of this forum, I often seen pizza with very large,  and consistently so, black burnt buble on teh crust and all users commenting on how great that looks and surely it will be a great pizza etc... I would like to just point out that consistent large black burnt buble is not the "leopording" we should be looking for, which should be almost micro bubles evenly distributed with the occasional larger one.

Evenly or not so evenly but  many large bubles that have been burnt in a pizza crust baked at high temperature, is a CLEAR INDICATION OF A DEFECTIVE DOUGH! The defect itself can be one or a combination of things, but surely it is a clear defect in the dough that shows when cooking.

A good baking, thanks mainly to a great oven like the one we offer at Forno Napoletano, can emphasise and complete a great dough with micro leoparding, and the recent pictures of Ciro Salvo's pizza are a Mastercalss example of this

Food for thoughts...


Offline andreguidon

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Re: Pictures of pseudo Neapolitan Pizza
« Reply #1 on: August 16, 2012, 08:18:09 AM »
I agree with you Marco about the large leopard spots, i stayed 6 days in Naples and did not eat any pizza with large leopard spots... and never aimed my pizza that way...
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cornicione54

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Re: Pictures of pseudo Neapolitan Pizza
« Reply #2 on: August 16, 2012, 08:25:26 AM »
Am I right in thinking that this forum coined the word "leoparding"? In fact the whole notion of leoparding as a defining feature of Neapolitan pizza stems from here as I recall. I certainly haven't seen as much discussion of it anywhere else.  Still I guess that's what happens when you start reverse engineering food based on appearance rather than taste.  
« Last Edit: August 16, 2012, 09:32:41 AM by cornicione54 »

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Pictures of pseudo Neapolitan Pizza
« Reply #3 on: August 16, 2012, 08:49:45 AM »
Am I right in thinking that this forum coined the word "leoparding"? In fact the whole notion that leoparding is a defining feature of Neapolitan pizza came from here as I recall. I certainly haven't seen as much discussion of it anywhere else.  Still I guess that's what happens when you start reverse engineering food based on appearance rather than taste.  

The forum's search function does not always work perfectly to find everything but the first reference on the forum to the term "leopard" that I was able to find (using the Advanced search feature) is the one at Reply 6 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,4488.msg37569/topicseen.html#msg37569.

Peter

cornicione54

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Re: Pictures of pseudo Neapolitan Pizza
« Reply #4 on: August 16, 2012, 09:01:39 AM »
The forum's search function does not always work perfectly to find everything but the first reference on the forum to the term "leopard" that I was able to find (using the Advanced search feature) is the one at Reply 6 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,4488.msg37569/topicseen.html#msg37569.

Peter

David (a former regular poster) mentioned it back in 2005:
http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,1471.msg13367.html#msg13367

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Pictures of pseudo Neapolitan Pizza
« Reply #5 on: August 16, 2012, 09:11:40 AM »
David (a former regular poster) mentioned it back in 2005:
http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,1471.msg13367.html#msg13367

Thanks for finding that. The search engine usually picks up words, like leoparding, that include the search term, like leopard in this case. I should have searched leoparding just to be on the safe side.

Peter

buceriasdon

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Re: Pictures of pseudo Neapolitan Pizza
« Reply #6 on: August 16, 2012, 09:29:18 AM »

Offline pizzablogger

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Re: Pictures of pseudo Neapolitan Pizza
« Reply #7 on: August 16, 2012, 09:33:27 AM »
"It's Baltimore, gentlemen, the gods will not save you." --Burrell

Offline pizzanapoletana

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Re: Pictures of pseudo Neapolitan Pizza
« Reply #8 on: August 16, 2012, 09:38:38 AM »
Then this would be an indication of defective dough?
http://www.seriouseats.com/recipes/2012/07/basic-neapolitan-pizza-dough-recipe.html

It has some of the same defects for sure, but the huge one on the left is due to bad manipulation

buceriasdon

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Re: Pictures of pseudo Neapolitan Pizza
« Reply #9 on: August 16, 2012, 09:41:23 AM »
Ok, Thanks Kelly, but I don't see either example as being counterfeit, phony or fake.  :-\


cornicione54

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Re: Pictures of pseudo Neapolitan Pizza
« Reply #10 on: August 16, 2012, 09:43:45 AM »
Deja vu!  It's this thread all over again: http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,8836.100.html

Marco I respect that you have business interests to protect (Forno Napoletano et al) but labelling food "defective" based on the size of blisters alone is absurd.

So what if someone makes a pizza with slightly larger black spots than Marco deems acceptable? If it tastes  good then who the hell cares? Sure it might be outside one man's idea of the Neapolitan norm but to call it "defective" is a bit much especially seeing some of the pizzas that come out of Da Michele and indeed Marco's beloved Franco Manca for that matter.
« Last Edit: August 16, 2012, 09:47:27 AM by cornicione54 »

Offline Tscarborough

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Re: Pictures of pseudo Neapolitan Pizza
« Reply #11 on: August 16, 2012, 09:48:39 AM »
Actually, he said the dough had a defect, not that the pizza was defective. 

Offline pizzablogger

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Re: Pictures of pseudo Neapolitan Pizza
« Reply #12 on: August 16, 2012, 09:50:49 AM »
I would like to just point out that consistent large black burnt buble is not the "leopording" we should be looking for, which should be almost micro bubles evenly distributed with the occasional larger one.

Evenly or not so evenly but  many large bubles that have been burnt in a pizza crust baked at high temperature, is a CLEAR INDICATION OF A DEFECTIVE DOUGH! The defect itself can be one or a combination of things, but surely it is a clear defect in the dough that shows when cooking.

Marco, I have (as I'm sure many have) noticed that larger leopard spotting seems to be pretty common among pizzerias employing Stefano Ferrara ovens. I'm not certain if it is something about the oven itself which helps to create this or that several pizzerias which employ Stefano Ferrara ovens also utilize refrigerated, cold fermentations for their dough....which could lead to a potentially cooler skin when launching into the oven (which may aid in larger leoparding) or some other factor. Most likely some combination of several items.

It cannot go without mentioning that some of the newer "Neapolitan" pizzerias which have opened up in the USA over the past few years have pizza makers at the helm with relatively little pizza making experience.  

Personally, I have no interest in recreating pizzas that are exactly like the pizzas produced in the best establishments in and around Naples. My personal preference is for a bit more chew/structure in the crumb than would be deemed authentic to stout devotes of Neapolitan pizza. While my pizzas are certainly heavily influenced by Neapolitan pizza, I would never tell anyone, or advertise, the pizzas as being "Neapolitan" or "authentic Neapolitan". It just ain't so! --K

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cornicione54

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Re: Pictures of pseudo Neapolitan Pizza
« Reply #13 on: August 16, 2012, 09:51:00 AM »
Quote
Actually, he said the dough had a defect, not that the pizza was defective.

Fair enough Tom, but the implication was clear: the pizza is defective - moreover the topic title implies that Marco believes these to be "pseudo Neapolitan".
« Last Edit: August 16, 2012, 10:28:41 AM by cornicione54 »

Offline pizzablogger

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Re: Pictures of pseudo Neapolitan Pizza
« Reply #14 on: August 16, 2012, 10:29:22 AM »
Quote
Remember, beauty is in the eye of the beer-holder.

Edan may have said it best right there!  :)

"It's Baltimore, gentlemen, the gods will not save you." --Burrell

Offline pizzanapoletana

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Re: Pictures of pseudo Neapolitan Pizza
« Reply #15 on: August 16, 2012, 11:04:35 AM »
Yes, the DOUGH IS DEFECTIVE, therefore not optimal for pizza napoletana production, and teh results is defective. It is becoming a standard here that all admiring and I am opointing out that there are defective in that dough that can be seen by that results.

The comment about the ovens I represent was ONLY that they help enphasise the opposite dough and the microleoparding, I am not talking about other producers etc, as the oven can sometime hide or hempasise good and bad things.

What is more some time there are handling defects, or occasional defective doughs batches even in the best pizzeria.

The problem is that when those example are shown on this forums, everyone thinks this is actually a good thing to achieve. I have never before made a comment as it would be again good advice that some people does  not appreciate...

Cornicione, some knowledge of PIZZAMAKING in a professional environment, and baking science and technology is that basis of identifying such a defect by watching at pictures. On the contrary, I have recently often seen pictures from Japanese pizzeria, that shows great doughs with perfectly distributed microspots. This has nothing to do with my business interest in Forno Napoletano, but as you sems to know better, can you tell us why these large blisters may occur (when largely distributed on the final pizza, not the odds ones), why this is not a defect and why we should all instead aiming at producing such a thing?


Many thanks and regards

cornicione54

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Re: Pictures of pseudo Neapolitan Pizza
« Reply #16 on: August 16, 2012, 11:08:54 AM »
Yes, the DOUGH IS DEFECTIVE, therefore not optimal for pizza napoletana production, and teh results is defective. It is becoming a standard here that all admiring and I am opointing out that there are defective in that dough that can be seen by that results.

The comment about the ovens I represent was ONLY that they help enphasise the opposite dough and the microleoparding, I am not talking about other producers etc, as the oven can sometime hide or hempasise good and bad things.

What is more some time there are handling defects, or occasional defective doughs batches even in the best pizzeria.

The problem is that when those example are shown on this forums, everyone thinks this is actually a good thing to achieve. I have never before made a comment as it would be again good advice that some people does  not appreciate...

Cornicione, some knowledge of PIZZAMAKING in a professional environment, and baking science and technology is that basis of identifying such a defect by watching at pictures. On the contrary, I have recently often seen pictures from Japanese pizzeria, that shows great doughs with perfectly distributed microspots. This has nothing to do with my business interest in Forno Napoletano, but as you sems to know better, can you tell us why these large blisters may occur (when largely distributed on the final pizza, not the odds ones), why this is not a defect and why we should all instead aiming at producing such a thing?


Many thanks and regards

Oh dear. It seems you have completely misunderstood what I was saying (I realise this might be a language thing). At no point did I suggest that large blisters were a GOOD thing. In fact quite the opposite - I am suggesting that blisters aren't an issue. The truth of the pizza is always in the eating in my, admittedly uneducated, opinion. If you believe that large blisters are a sign of bad pizza then that's great but please don't dictate to others what they should enjoy or find acceptable.

Offline pizzanapoletana

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Re: Pictures of pseudo Neapolitan Pizza
« Reply #17 on: August 16, 2012, 11:19:11 AM »
Oh dear. It seems you have completely misunderstood what I was saying (I realise this might be a language thing). At no point did I suggest that large blisters were a GOOD thing. In fact quite the opposite - I am suggesting that blisters aren't an issue. The truth of the pizza is always in the eating in my, admittedly uneducated, opinion. If you believe that large blisters are a sign of bad pizza then that's great but please don't dictate to others what they should enjoy or find acceptable.

So you are agreeing that large blister are not a good thing, but are not a problem?

A good dough, when handles properly, cooked properly, etc will produce a great pizza.

A bad dough, even handled properly will be a strugle to cook properly and will surely NOT produce a great pizza.


Now, what I am saying, or badly trying to say,  is that the large, diffuse blisters, are an INDICATION of one or VARIOUS defect in the dough, which surely will manifestate in the EATING experience

scott123

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Re: Pictures of pseudo Neapolitan Pizza
« Reply #18 on: August 16, 2012, 11:37:16 AM »
Marco, how will the eating experience be impaired?  Could you go into greater detail as to why these larger blisters are so bad?

Offline pizzanapoletana

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Re: Pictures of pseudo Neapolitan Pizza
« Reply #19 on: August 16, 2012, 11:46:38 AM »
Marco, how will the eating experience be impaired?  Could you go into greater detail as to why these larger blisters are so bad?
One or  a combination of texture, taste and also digestability.