Author Topic: Pictures of pseudo Neapolitan Pizza  (Read 13287 times)

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Offline Don K

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Re: Pictures of pseudo Neapolitan Pizza
« Reply #25 on: August 16, 2012, 01:08:01 PM »
I don't make Neapolitan pizza nor do I know much about it other than what I have learned on this forum, but it seems to me that it would be more constructive to explain why the dough is defective and possible ways to correct the defect than to just label it defective. What defect in the dough is causing the big blisters?

Constructive criticism is always better than just criticism.
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Online Pete-zza

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Re: Pictures of pseudo Neapolitan Pizza
« Reply #26 on: August 16, 2012, 01:44:46 PM »
This is obviously a situation where you have a guy, Marco, who doesn't want to see (in his view) his beloved pizza get bastardized.
Sorta the same thing as Scott with his NY pizza.
Scott has shown the history behind what a true NY pizza should be.
And unless Marco can do the same then all he is doing is expressing his own opinion here.

Bob,

Just like you, scott123 and his devotion and dedication and defense of the NY style pizza came to mind when I read the earlier posts in this thread. I personally like it that Marco sticks to his guns, even if that makes him a controversial figure on the forum.

Marco did discuss some of the history of the Neapolitan style in his posts. I have read all of Marco's posts several times, and recall that part of his discourse was on the evolution of the Neapolitan style. There admittedly are some gaps in what Marco has revealed on the forum but at the time he was active on the forum he had plans to write a book on the subject and, quite naturally, did not want to reveal everything on the forum. Unfortunately, the book never came to pass. But, as Kelly noted, his impact on this forum has been unmistakable. That is one of the reasons why I gave him credit for what I know about the Neapolitan style in my Slice interview some time ago.

Peter

Offline pizzanapoletana

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Re: Pictures of pseudo Neapolitan Pizza
« Reply #27 on: August 16, 2012, 01:51:06 PM »
Thanks Kelly, it was only about crisceto, but also commercial yeast quantities, hydration, times etc.

In any case, yes I was provocative in the title using "pseudo", but the point was around the defective dough getting compliments and people aspiring to it. As I said earlier, these defect in high Heath short time baking of neapolitan pizza style shows clear indications in those large black spots, however these defects could be present in other types of pizza and show differently in Chicago deep pan, Ray's etc.

In breads, similar defects would show for instance when cutting through the middle : looking at the section they could show a dense humid crumb at the bottom and large pockets close to the surface... Same defects, you see, but now you may tell me that there are people that wants to pay for those loaves, good on them should I say...

Offline Chicago Bob

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Re: Pictures of pseudo Neapolitan Pizza
« Reply #28 on: August 16, 2012, 01:51:43 PM »
I personally like it that Marco sticks to his guns, even if that makes him a controversial figure on the forum.



+1,000   ;)
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cornicione54

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Re: Pictures of pseudo Neapolitan Pizza
« Reply #29 on: August 16, 2012, 01:55:18 PM »
Thanks Kelly, it was only about crisceto, but also commercial yeast quantities, hydration, times etc.

In any case, yes I was provocative in the title using "pseudo", but the point was around the defective dough getting compliments and people aspiring to it. As I said earlier, these defect in high Heath short time baking of neapolitan pizza style shows clear indications in those large black spots, however these defects could be present in other types of pizza and show differently in Chicago deep pan, Ray's etc.

In breads, similar defects would show for instance when cutting through the middle : looking at the section they could show a dense humid crumb at the bottom and large pockets close to the surface... Same defects, you see, but now you may tell me that there are people that wants to pay for those loaves, good on them should I say...

Marco, I think you may be trying to defend/address an issue that doesn't exist. I really don't think that people are calling for or aspiring to the large blisters you mention. No one here is questioning your experience in this field (least of all me) but I think you'll find folks on this forum have a better grasp of your definition of Neapolitan pizza than just about anywhere else on the internet. Much of that is directly to your credit ;)
« Last Edit: August 16, 2012, 01:59:40 PM by cornicione54 »

Offline bakeshack

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Re: Pictures of pseudo Neapolitan Pizza
« Reply #30 on: August 16, 2012, 01:59:40 PM »


The problem is that when those example are shown on this forums, everyone thinks this is actually a good thing to achieve. I have never before made a comment as it would be again good advice that some people does  not appreciate...



Marco, I would love it if you would comment on the pizzas I make and let me know if they are part of those classified as defective.  Your comments and suggestions would only make me better so I would welcome it very much. 

Thank you.

Marlon

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Re: Pictures of pseudo Neapolitan Pizza
« Reply #31 on: August 16, 2012, 03:39:42 PM »
In breads, similar defects would show for instance when cutting through the middle : looking at the section they could show a dense humid crumb at the bottom and large pockets close to the surface... Same defects, you see, but now you may tell me that there are people that wants to pay for those loaves, good on them should I say...

Marco, this is not a bread forum  :) My question (above) has not been answered.

To be clear, I'm not questioning your conclusions, I'm just seeking further clarification.  If you're going to say big spots are bad and that they compromise taste and texture, then you need to explain, in detail, in what way they are compromise taste and texture.  Are you telling us that big spots produce "dense humid crumb at the bottom and large pockets close to the surface"? Is that what you're saying?  That these spots are indicative of an uneven crumb character- and that when the spots are small the crumb is more uniform?

Offline italdream

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Re: Pictures of pseudo Neapolitan Pizza
« Reply #32 on: August 16, 2012, 04:38:50 PM »
For once, I think that this topic is of little help, if any.

Neapolitan pizza is one and only. Its characteristics are well known and defined by law. You can read them here: http://tinyurl.com/c4fx9u3

In the "aspetto" (look) section, there is no mention of blisters, little or big. It mentions a cornicione rialzato di colore dorato, (raised cornicione, golden color). Therefore, for as much the original OP wants to impose his own "blistering" standard, he may as well as be wrong as anybody else.

The above notwithstanding, the truth is that pizza napoletana is an artisan product and you will see variations and differences even in the best pizzerias in Naples.

A brief google search, would prove this:
http://tinyurl.com/casozgt
http://tinyurl.com/brtg8a4
http://tinyurl.com/bpffkmt
http://tinyurl.com/bvrxs62
http://tinyurl.com/crjdu8s

So, while I think that we should not be looking obsessively for blistering, micro, macro or else, the standard and the experience accounts for variations (little, larger, or no blisters in some cases) so long as we understand the defining features, oven temperature, dough, ingredients, shape etc.

Let's not make things up! Especially since the title of the post can be viewed as pretentious and OP essentially defines as "pseudo" Neapolitan, the pizzas that don't look like his. This is  the same as saying that there is no standard but OP's own standard. Anybody who has eaten more than one pizza in Naples knows better.
« Last Edit: August 16, 2012, 04:47:12 PM by italdream »

Offline pizzanapoletana

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Re: Pictures of pseudo Neapolitan Pizza
« Reply #33 on: August 16, 2012, 04:47:05 PM »
Marco, this is not a bread forum  :) My question (above) has not been answered.

To be clear, I'm not questioning your conclusions, I'm just seeking further clarification.  If you're going to say big spots are bad and that they compromise taste and texture, then you need to explain, in detail, in what way they are compromise taste and texture.  Are you telling us that big spots produce "dense humid crumb at the bottom and large pockets close to the surface"? Is that what you're saying?  That these spots are indicative of an uneven crumb character- and that when the spots are small the crumb is more uniform?

This was a food for thought post, not one were I would give my answers. If you cannot see that comparing two final pizza, the one with large spots diffused everywhere is inferior to the one with microleoparding, I rest my case.


Offline pizzanapoletana

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Re: Pictures of pseudo Neapolitan Pizza
« Reply #34 on: August 16, 2012, 04:53:20 PM »
People that remembers the pre 80s in Naples will tell you otherwise.

Also pizza Napoletana stg rules are one and only but are meant as general guidelines, the results of traditional dough making ( as indicated by an earlier founder of VPN but reduced in standards in the subsequent documents) and baking will results in those blistering.


Btw standards in Naples are lowering by the minutes as people focus on toppings rather then dough making
It was a big point of discussion at a recent conference.

Edit: italdream, on your google search imagine results, leaving aside the pizza not actually produced by those pizzeria by associated by google for other reasons (port'alba the most relevant example), most shows the micro spots when looking at the crust closely, the degree of colour would be due to the way the oven was managed at that time (Ron Molinaro of Il Pizzaiolo posted two comparative pictures of Da Michele, peraphs in 2006, where we had pizza at the busy evening service and then the following morning just before lunch. Pizza Napoletana is indeed an artisanal product with high degree of variability, but certain aspects are almost a unique mark


For once, I think that this topic is of little help, if any.

Neapolitan pizza is one and only. Its characteristics are well known and defined by law. You can read them here: http://tinyurl.com/c4fx9u3

In the "aspetto" (look) section, there is no mention of blisters, little or big. It mentions a cornicione rialzato di colore dorato, (raised cornicione, golden color). Therefore, for as much the original OP wants to impose his own "blistering" standard, he may as well as be wrong as anybody else.

The above notwithstanding, the truth is that pizza napoletana is an artisan product and you will see variations and differences even in the best pizzerias in Naples.

A brief google search, would prove this:
http://tinyurl.com/casozgt
http://tinyurl.com/brtg8a4
http://tinyurl.com/bpffkmt
http://tinyurl.com/bvrxs62
http://tinyurl.com/crjdu8s

So, while I think that we should not be looking obsessively for blistering, micro, macro or else, the standard and the experience accounts for variations (little, larger, or no blisters in some cases) so long as we understand the defining features, oven temperature, dough, ingredients, shape etc.

Let's not make things up! Especially since the title of the post can be viewed as pretentious and OP essentially defines as "pseudo" Neapolitan, the pizzas that don't look like his. This is  the same as saying that there is no standard but OP's own standard. Anybody who has eaten more than one pizza in Naples knows better.
« Last Edit: August 16, 2012, 05:16:50 PM by pizzanapoletana »

Offline andreguidon

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Re: Pictures of pseudo Neapolitan Pizza
« Reply #35 on: August 16, 2012, 05:02:50 PM »
( as indicated by an earlier founder of VPN but reduced in standards in the subsequent documents)

Marco, who is this founder?? is it Lello Surace?

and again, i could not agree more, the big leopard spots are the results of some problem during the dough making process... usually under develop gluten and cold fermentation.....
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scott123

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Re: Pictures of pseudo Neapolitan Pizza
« Reply #36 on: August 16, 2012, 05:12:25 PM »
This was a food for thought post, not one were I would give my answers. If you cannot see that comparing two final pizza, the one with large spots diffused everywhere is inferior to the one with microleoparding, I rest my case.

So, let me get this right. Large spots are inherently bad, they impact the dough in some mysterious way in which you refuse to expand on, and, if we can't innately understand this defective dough property on our own, we're idiots. Is that what you're saying?

Offline italdream

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Re: Pictures of pseudo Neapolitan Pizza
« Reply #37 on: August 16, 2012, 05:14:00 PM »
I was a kid but I remember the pre '80s in Naples.  

Anyway, I can see your point and how quality would go down. That is sad.

Re toppings, I am no fan of Da Michele's fundamentalist choice of Marinara-Margherita only. I have had great capricciosa and others at Di Matteo, recently Presidente etc. I know that it would break my heart seeing a pineapple-topped pizza in Naples.

Offline pizzanapoletana

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Re: Pictures of pseudo Neapolitan Pizza
« Reply #38 on: August 16, 2012, 05:25:19 PM »
Marco, who is this founder?? is it Lello Surace?

and again, i could not agree more, the big leopard spots are the results of some problem during the dough making process... usually under develop gluten and cold fermentation.....
there was a statement by Antonio Pace father that described a guideline of making pizza that would be much better then the stg guideline, but that is only a guideline  and I support 100% the fundamental notions of it, but the quality artisan, whilst adhering to the fundamentals can improve it further.

I have spoken, interviewed and been thought by people that attended those early meetings in the 80s when they were trying to come up with a general guideline.... What a story


Scott 123, do not put word in my mouth as I have not used offensive language. I said in the past why I would not fully explain things, so your provocative questions wont change that. I know many people that do not even know how to mix a dough and they can detect the effect of such defective doughs on the pizza...

Offline Chicago Bob

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Re: Pictures of pseudo Neapolitan Pizza
« Reply #39 on: August 16, 2012, 05:25:34 PM »

Also pizza Napoletana stg rules are one and only but are meant as general guidelines, the results of traditional dough making ( as indicated by an earlier founder of VPN but reduced in standards in the subsequent documents) and baking will results in those blistering.






???   I know we have translation difficulties here at times...please, I'm not quite sure what you mean by the above statement. Thanks..
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Offline italdream

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Re: Pictures of pseudo Neapolitan Pizza
« Reply #40 on: August 16, 2012, 05:27:32 PM »
By the way, the disciplinare di produzione is not just "guidelines". In Europe, you must follow those rules to legally sell pizza that is called pizza napoletana, or more precisely "pizza napoletana stg" (where stg is SPECIALIT└ TRADIZIONALE GARANTITA, i.e. guaranteed traditional specialty).

For many parameters, the disciplinare provides ranges. A range is not merely a guideline. Only for the temperatures, it says "approximately": circa.

However It says nothing about blistering. We can rely on evidence of pizzas from the best places and they show variations. This is the opposite of what you are saying, that blistering can only be one way.

I would agree that a burned pizza is a burned pizza, that a bad dough is a bad dough and that a bad dough would likely not give "consistent" blistering. I also know from experience how hard it is to walk that line, without using proper equipment.

However, enough with this fantasy of blisters or "leoparding" of the right size.
« Last Edit: August 16, 2012, 05:31:51 PM by italdream »

Offline shuboyje

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Re: Pictures of pseudo Neapolitan Pizza
« Reply #41 on: August 16, 2012, 05:45:40 PM »
Here we go again.  Marco FINALLY steps out from behind the curtain and contributes to the forum and before the last word is even typed the same attitudes that have silenced him in the past rear their ugly heads.  I understand that people have a freedom to voice their opinions here within reason, but I wish some members could simply look away if they don't like what he says so the rest of us could have a chance to learn from him.  Like him or not he has proven time and time again he is the foremost expert on pretty much all things Neapolitan that most of us will ever have access to.
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Offline pizzanapoletana

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Re: Pictures of pseudo Neapolitan Pizza
« Reply #42 on: August 16, 2012, 05:46:51 PM »
I was a kid but I remember the pre '80s in Naples.  

Anyway, I can see your point and how quality would go down. That is sad.

Re toppings, I am no fan of Da Michele's fundamentalist choice of Marinara-Margherita only. I have had great capricciosa and others at Di Matteo, recently Presidente etc. I know that it would break my heart seeing a pineapple-topped pizza in Naples.

The focus on topping now is a trend on using specialty, deli level products that ofte overpower the base. I tend to prefer simple pizza but do occasionally order and eat more loaded versions, my motto is eat simple when the dough is great, over top when is not

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Re: Pictures of pseudo Neapolitan Pizza
« Reply #43 on: August 16, 2012, 05:51:25 PM »
Scott 123, do not put word in my mouth as I have not used offensive language. I said in the past why I would not fully explain things, so your provocative questions wont change that. I know many people that do not even know how to mix a dough and they can detect the effect of such defective doughs on the pizza...

Past, no past, book, no book-  No authoritative member of this forum has the right to say "do this, but I won't explain why" or "take my word for it."  History has seen too much misinformation being spread from a "take my word for it" perspective.  I, personally, don't like big spots, but that's my own opinion and it has little to do with crumb structure. The bottom line is that I don't disagree with you, I just want to understand why.

If preserving the best aspects of Neapolitan pizza culture is important to you, and it certainly looks like this is/has been your goal, then you cannot, when asked why a certain thing needs to be done the way it's done, simply say "No, I will not explain that to you."  What's more important, your book, your consulting fees or your culture?

Offline pizzanapoletana

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Re: Pictures of pseudo Neapolitan Pizza
« Reply #44 on: August 16, 2012, 05:53:54 PM »
By the way, the disciplinare di produzione is not just "guidelines". In Europe, you must follow those rules to legally sell pizza that is called pizza napoletana, or more precisely "pizza napoletana stg" (where stg is SPECIALIT└ TRADIZIONALE GARANTITA, i.e. guaranteed traditional specialty).

For many parameters, the disciplinare provides ranges. A range is not merely a guideline. Only for the temperatures, it says "approximately": circa.

However It says nothing about blistering. We can rely on evidence of pizzas from the best places and they show variations. This is the opposite of what you are saying, that blistering can only be one way.

I would agree that a burned pizza is a burned pizza, that a bad dough is a bad dough and that a bad dough would likely not give "consistent" blistering. I also know from experience how hard it is to walk that line, without using proper equipment.

However, enough with this fantasy of blisters or "leoparding" of the right size.

The leoparding blistering or whatever you want to call it is not a fantasy.

The stg is a guideline as even members with stg sign on the door Dough methodology vary a great degree from this guideline and that is acceptable. I am lucky enough to be able to live those things rather then just read it. I was the one that had the crisceto (natural starter) included in the final version and have made few enemies at the time because of that (have a letter from the Ministry of Agricolture to prove that).

Have a good day

Offline Chicago Bob

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Re: Pictures of pseudo Neapolitan Pizza
« Reply #45 on: August 16, 2012, 05:56:28 PM »
I don't get it when some refer to the "attitude" problem...people communicate in different ways...sort of a cultural thing...not everybody comes from the same place....
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Offline BrickStoneOven

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Re: Pictures of pseudo Neapolitan Pizza
« Reply #46 on: August 16, 2012, 06:02:20 PM »
I don't get it when some refer to the "attitude" problem...people communicate in different ways...sort of a cultural thing...not everybody comes from the same place....
Yea but there is a civility that everyone should have when talking to people on or off the internet, which has gone down a few rungs on this forum lately.

Offline pizzanapoletana

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Re: Pictures of pseudo Neapolitan Pizza
« Reply #47 on: August 16, 2012, 06:04:49 PM »
Past, no past, book, no book-  No authoritative member of this forum has the right to say "do this, but I won't explain why" or "take my word for it."  History has seen too much misinformation being spread from a "take my word for it" perspective.  I, personally, don't like big spots, but that's my own opinion and it has little to do with crumb structure. The bottom line is that I don't disagree with you, I just want to understand why.

If preserving the best aspects of Neapolitan pizza culture is important to you, and it certainly looks like this is/has been your goal, then you cannot, when asked why a certain thing needs to be done the way it's done, simply say "No, I will not explain that to you."  What's more important, your book, your consulting fees or your culture?
Nice try. Did not say do this, I was actually say do not do it!

Again those big blister indicate a bad dough , so even in other type of leavening products and with different manifestation, indicate bad dough and is not unique to pizza Napoletana but from a baking science and technology point of view, it is a defect and respect to my clients is more important to me as demonstrated here things get misconstrued and some become expert with bad knowledge that get then passes on and some time even sold as good. I should have stayed quite, make everyone believe that if large diffuse blistering was achieved it was a good thing, and a new trend for bad dough production been established so that when the few good guy come along and do the right product and clients can finally TASTE and FeEL the differences, success is assured

Offline italdream

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Re: Pictures of pseudo Neapolitan Pizza
« Reply #48 on: August 16, 2012, 06:09:11 PM »
Btw, I want to say that I like the fact that people are passionate about their views. This is a forum about pizza, not quantum algebra or dental hygiene. People should be passionate. and Marco, I did not mean to offend you. I think that every person's contribution should be heard. Besides, I give for granted that you make a way better pizza than I do. So what am I left with if not arguing semantics?
« Last Edit: August 16, 2012, 06:13:05 PM by italdream »

Offline Chicago Bob

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Re: Pictures of pseudo Neapolitan Pizza
« Reply #49 on: August 16, 2012, 06:19:37 PM »
I should have stayed quite, make everyone believe that if large diffuse blistering was achieved it was a good thing, and a new trend for bad dough production been established so that when the few good guy come along and do the right product and clients can finally TASTE and FeEL the differences, success is assured

As I said...people are going to get it the way they want it...good for them.And good for you to have such honorable intensions. But like I also said...sometimes you are better off beating your head against the wall than to try an attempt to change the wheels that are already in motion...
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