Author Topic: Pictures of pseudo Neapolitan Pizza  (Read 9778 times)

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Offline Chicago Bob

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Re: Pictures of pseudo Neapolitan Pizza
« Reply #20 on: August 16, 2012, 12:35:43 PM »
This is obviously a situation where you have a guy, Marco, who doesn't want to see (in his view) his beloved pizza get bastardized.
Sorta the same thing as Scott with his NY pizza.
Scott has shown the history behind what a true NY pizza should be.
And unless Marco can do the same then all he is doing is expressing his own opinion here.

Regardless, if people want to pay for big black spots....there will always be someone, somewhere that's gonna  provide...and you'll always have those that say "that NP pizza pic is great looking". And so it goes...
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Offline weemis

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Re: Pictures of pseudo Neapolitan Pizza
« Reply #21 on: August 16, 2012, 12:38:56 PM »
this is why, like kelly said previously, i steer away from classifying my pizza.
it can't be wrong if you're not trying to emulate anything!
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Online scott123

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Re: Pictures of pseudo Neapolitan Pizza
« Reply #22 on: August 16, 2012, 12:45:52 PM »
One or  a combination of texture, taste and also digestability.

Marco, how will the texture be impaired?  In what way will it taste worse?

Offline pizzablogger

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Re: Pictures of pseudo Neapolitan Pizza
« Reply #23 on: August 16, 2012, 12:49:28 PM »
Scott has shown the history behind what a true NY pizza should be.
And unless Marco can do the same then all he is doing is expressing his own opinion here.

Bob, to be fair, Marco shed more light on Neapolitan pizza at a time when there was not much information available about the style, than anyone I can think of off the top of my head. Well before Keste & UPN dough cloning attempts...heck before most of the Neapolitan places in America even existed, Marco was here giving insight.

He has deleted some of his older posts, but his insights were invaluable. It was Marco who informed us as to the use of very small amounts of crisceto (sourdough starter) and longer, ambient temperature fermentations (among other things) that caused many of us to attempt this method (I switched to it a few years ago) and since be more recognized by the wildly popular, deservedly so, pizzas of people like Craig.

EDIT: Not sure if Craig directly was influenced from Marco's initial mentioning of the small amounts of starter, but many of us here have. --K
« Last Edit: August 16, 2012, 12:57:39 PM by pizzablogger »
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Offline Chicago Bob

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Re: Pictures of pseudo Neapolitan Pizza
« Reply #24 on: August 16, 2012, 01:03:15 PM »
Bob, to be fair, Marco shed more light on Neapolitan pizza at a time when there was not much information available about the style, than anyone I can think of off the top of my head. Well before Keste & UPN dough cloning attempts...heck before most of the Neapolitan places in America even existed, Marco was here giving insight.


Oh I know who he is...and I was not at all trying to put him down.I'm just stating something that appears obvious to me.
Actually, I feel it's kinda sad that he has to defend something he has put so much into. But sometimes facts are facts...

You should see some of the WFO 500 degree temp. pizzas around here..and the owners advertise it as NP pie and the people go nuts for it. It's like beating your head against a wall....some bad things can't be undone, unfotunatly...
« Last Edit: August 16, 2012, 01:09:37 PM by Chicago Bob »
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Offline Don K

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Re: Pictures of pseudo Neapolitan Pizza
« Reply #25 on: August 16, 2012, 01:08:01 PM »
I don't make Neapolitan pizza nor do I know much about it other than what I have learned on this forum, but it seems to me that it would be more constructive to explain why the dough is defective and possible ways to correct the defect than to just label it defective. What defect in the dough is causing the big blisters?

Constructive criticism is always better than just criticism.
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Online Pete-zza

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Re: Pictures of pseudo Neapolitan Pizza
« Reply #26 on: August 16, 2012, 01:44:46 PM »
This is obviously a situation where you have a guy, Marco, who doesn't want to see (in his view) his beloved pizza get bastardized.
Sorta the same thing as Scott with his NY pizza.
Scott has shown the history behind what a true NY pizza should be.
And unless Marco can do the same then all he is doing is expressing his own opinion here.

Bob,

Just like you, scott123 and his devotion and dedication and defense of the NY style pizza came to mind when I read the earlier posts in this thread. I personally like it that Marco sticks to his guns, even if that makes him a controversial figure on the forum.

Marco did discuss some of the history of the Neapolitan style in his posts. I have read all of Marco's posts several times, and recall that part of his discourse was on the evolution of the Neapolitan style. There admittedly are some gaps in what Marco has revealed on the forum but at the time he was active on the forum he had plans to write a book on the subject and, quite naturally, did not want to reveal everything on the forum. Unfortunately, the book never came to pass. But, as Kelly noted, his impact on this forum has been unmistakable. That is one of the reasons why I gave him credit for what I know about the Neapolitan style in my Slice interview some time ago.

Peter

Offline pizzanapoletana

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Re: Pictures of pseudo Neapolitan Pizza
« Reply #27 on: August 16, 2012, 01:51:06 PM »
Thanks Kelly, it was only about crisceto, but also commercial yeast quantities, hydration, times etc.

In any case, yes I was provocative in the title using "pseudo", but the point was around the defective dough getting compliments and people aspiring to it. As I said earlier, these defect in high Heath short time baking of neapolitan pizza style shows clear indications in those large black spots, however these defects could be present in other types of pizza and show differently in Chicago deep pan, Ray's etc.

In breads, similar defects would show for instance when cutting through the middle : looking at the section they could show a dense humid crumb at the bottom and large pockets close to the surface... Same defects, you see, but now you may tell me that there are people that wants to pay for those loaves, good on them should I say...

Offline Chicago Bob

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Re: Pictures of pseudo Neapolitan Pizza
« Reply #28 on: August 16, 2012, 01:51:43 PM »
I personally like it that Marco sticks to his guns, even if that makes him a controversial figure on the forum.



+1,000   ;)
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Re: Pictures of pseudo Neapolitan Pizza
« Reply #29 on: August 16, 2012, 01:55:18 PM »
Thanks Kelly, it was only about crisceto, but also commercial yeast quantities, hydration, times etc.

In any case, yes I was provocative in the title using "pseudo", but the point was around the defective dough getting compliments and people aspiring to it. As I said earlier, these defect in high Heath short time baking of neapolitan pizza style shows clear indications in those large black spots, however these defects could be present in other types of pizza and show differently in Chicago deep pan, Ray's etc.

In breads, similar defects would show for instance when cutting through the middle : looking at the section they could show a dense humid crumb at the bottom and large pockets close to the surface... Same defects, you see, but now you may tell me that there are people that wants to pay for those loaves, good on them should I say...

Marco, I think you may be trying to defend/address an issue that doesn't exist. I really don't think that people are calling for or aspiring to the large blisters you mention. No one here is questioning your experience in this field (least of all me) but I think you'll find folks on this forum have a better grasp of your definition of Neapolitan pizza than just about anywhere else on the internet. Much of that is directly to your credit ;)
« Last Edit: August 16, 2012, 01:59:40 PM by cornicione54 »


Offline bakeshack

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Re: Pictures of pseudo Neapolitan Pizza
« Reply #30 on: August 16, 2012, 01:59:40 PM »


The problem is that when those example are shown on this forums, everyone thinks this is actually a good thing to achieve. I have never before made a comment as it would be again good advice that some people does  not appreciate...



Marco, I would love it if you would comment on the pizzas I make and let me know if they are part of those classified as defective.  Your comments and suggestions would only make me better so I would welcome it very much. 

Thank you.

Marlon

Online scott123

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Re: Pictures of pseudo Neapolitan Pizza
« Reply #31 on: August 16, 2012, 03:39:42 PM »
In breads, similar defects would show for instance when cutting through the middle : looking at the section they could show a dense humid crumb at the bottom and large pockets close to the surface... Same defects, you see, but now you may tell me that there are people that wants to pay for those loaves, good on them should I say...

Marco, this is not a bread forum  :) My question (above) has not been answered.

To be clear, I'm not questioning your conclusions, I'm just seeking further clarification.  If you're going to say big spots are bad and that they compromise taste and texture, then you need to explain, in detail, in what way they are compromise taste and texture.  Are you telling us that big spots produce "dense humid crumb at the bottom and large pockets close to the surface"? Is that what you're saying?  That these spots are indicative of an uneven crumb character- and that when the spots are small the crumb is more uniform?

Offline italdream

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Re: Pictures of pseudo Neapolitan Pizza
« Reply #32 on: August 16, 2012, 04:38:50 PM »
For once, I think that this topic is of little help, if any.

Neapolitan pizza is one and only. Its characteristics are well known and defined by law. You can read them here: http://tinyurl.com/c4fx9u3

In the "aspetto" (look) section, there is no mention of blisters, little or big. It mentions a cornicione rialzato di colore dorato, (raised cornicione, golden color). Therefore, for as much the original OP wants to impose his own "blistering" standard, he may as well as be wrong as anybody else.

The above notwithstanding, the truth is that pizza napoletana is an artisan product and you will see variations and differences even in the best pizzerias in Naples.

A brief google search, would prove this:
http://tinyurl.com/casozgt
http://tinyurl.com/brtg8a4
http://tinyurl.com/bpffkmt
http://tinyurl.com/bvrxs62
http://tinyurl.com/crjdu8s

So, while I think that we should not be looking obsessively for blistering, micro, macro or else, the standard and the experience accounts for variations (little, larger, or no blisters in some cases) so long as we understand the defining features, oven temperature, dough, ingredients, shape etc.

Let's not make things up! Especially since the title of the post can be viewed as pretentious and OP essentially defines as "pseudo" Neapolitan, the pizzas that don't look like his. This is  the same as saying that there is no standard but OP's own standard. Anybody who has eaten more than one pizza in Naples knows better.
« Last Edit: August 16, 2012, 04:47:12 PM by italdream »

Offline pizzanapoletana

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Re: Pictures of pseudo Neapolitan Pizza
« Reply #33 on: August 16, 2012, 04:47:05 PM »
Marco, this is not a bread forum  :) My question (above) has not been answered.

To be clear, I'm not questioning your conclusions, I'm just seeking further clarification.  If you're going to say big spots are bad and that they compromise taste and texture, then you need to explain, in detail, in what way they are compromise taste and texture.  Are you telling us that big spots produce "dense humid crumb at the bottom and large pockets close to the surface"? Is that what you're saying?  That these spots are indicative of an uneven crumb character- and that when the spots are small the crumb is more uniform?

This was a food for thought post, not one were I would give my answers. If you cannot see that comparing two final pizza, the one with large spots diffused everywhere is inferior to the one with microleoparding, I rest my case.

Offline pizzanapoletana

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Re: Pictures of pseudo Neapolitan Pizza
« Reply #34 on: August 16, 2012, 04:53:20 PM »
People that remembers the pre 80s in Naples will tell you otherwise.

Also pizza Napoletana stg rules are one and only but are meant as general guidelines, the results of traditional dough making ( as indicated by an earlier founder of VPN but reduced in standards in the subsequent documents) and baking will results in those blistering.


Btw standards in Naples are lowering by the minutes as people focus on toppings rather then dough making
It was a big point of discussion at a recent conference.

Edit: italdream, on your google search imagine results, leaving aside the pizza not actually produced by those pizzeria by associated by google for other reasons (port'alba the most relevant example), most shows the micro spots when looking at the crust closely, the degree of colour would be due to the way the oven was managed at that time (Ron Molinaro of Il Pizzaiolo posted two comparative pictures of Da Michele, peraphs in 2006, where we had pizza at the busy evening service and then the following morning just before lunch. Pizza Napoletana is indeed an artisanal product with high degree of variability, but certain aspects are almost a unique mark


For once, I think that this topic is of little help, if any.

Neapolitan pizza is one and only. Its characteristics are well known and defined by law. You can read them here: http://tinyurl.com/c4fx9u3

In the "aspetto" (look) section, there is no mention of blisters, little or big. It mentions a cornicione rialzato di colore dorato, (raised cornicione, golden color). Therefore, for as much the original OP wants to impose his own "blistering" standard, he may as well as be wrong as anybody else.

The above notwithstanding, the truth is that pizza napoletana is an artisan product and you will see variations and differences even in the best pizzerias in Naples.

A brief google search, would prove this:
http://tinyurl.com/casozgt
http://tinyurl.com/brtg8a4
http://tinyurl.com/bpffkmt
http://tinyurl.com/bvrxs62
http://tinyurl.com/crjdu8s

So, while I think that we should not be looking obsessively for blistering, micro, macro or else, the standard and the experience accounts for variations (little, larger, or no blisters in some cases) so long as we understand the defining features, oven temperature, dough, ingredients, shape etc.

Let's not make things up! Especially since the title of the post can be viewed as pretentious and OP essentially defines as "pseudo" Neapolitan, the pizzas that don't look like his. This is  the same as saying that there is no standard but OP's own standard. Anybody who has eaten more than one pizza in Naples knows better.
« Last Edit: August 16, 2012, 05:16:50 PM by pizzanapoletana »

Offline andreguidon

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Re: Pictures of pseudo Neapolitan Pizza
« Reply #35 on: August 16, 2012, 05:02:50 PM »
( as indicated by an earlier founder of VPN but reduced in standards in the subsequent documents)

Marco, who is this founder?? is it Lello Surace?

and again, i could not agree more, the big leopard spots are the results of some problem during the dough making process... usually under develop gluten and cold fermentation.....
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Online scott123

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Re: Pictures of pseudo Neapolitan Pizza
« Reply #36 on: August 16, 2012, 05:12:25 PM »
This was a food for thought post, not one were I would give my answers. If you cannot see that comparing two final pizza, the one with large spots diffused everywhere is inferior to the one with microleoparding, I rest my case.

So, let me get this right. Large spots are inherently bad, they impact the dough in some mysterious way in which you refuse to expand on, and, if we can't innately understand this defective dough property on our own, we're idiots. Is that what you're saying?

Offline italdream

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Re: Pictures of pseudo Neapolitan Pizza
« Reply #37 on: August 16, 2012, 05:14:00 PM »
I was a kid but I remember the pre '80s in Naples.  

Anyway, I can see your point and how quality would go down. That is sad.

Re toppings, I am no fan of Da Michele's fundamentalist choice of Marinara-Margherita only. I have had great capricciosa and others at Di Matteo, recently Presidente etc. I know that it would break my heart seeing a pineapple-topped pizza in Naples.

Offline pizzanapoletana

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Re: Pictures of pseudo Neapolitan Pizza
« Reply #38 on: August 16, 2012, 05:25:19 PM »
Marco, who is this founder?? is it Lello Surace?

and again, i could not agree more, the big leopard spots are the results of some problem during the dough making process... usually under develop gluten and cold fermentation.....
there was a statement by Antonio Pace father that described a guideline of making pizza that would be much better then the stg guideline, but that is only a guideline  and I support 100% the fundamental notions of it, but the quality artisan, whilst adhering to the fundamentals can improve it further.

I have spoken, interviewed and been thought by people that attended those early meetings in the 80s when they were trying to come up with a general guideline.... What a story


Scott 123, do not put word in my mouth as I have not used offensive language. I said in the past why I would not fully explain things, so your provocative questions wont change that. I know many people that do not even know how to mix a dough and they can detect the effect of such defective doughs on the pizza...

Offline Chicago Bob

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Re: Pictures of pseudo Neapolitan Pizza
« Reply #39 on: August 16, 2012, 05:25:34 PM »

Also pizza Napoletana stg rules are one and only but are meant as general guidelines, the results of traditional dough making ( as indicated by an earlier founder of VPN but reduced in standards in the subsequent documents) and baking will results in those blistering.






???   I know we have translation difficulties here at times...please, I'm not quite sure what you mean by the above statement. Thanks..
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