Disappointing pies tonight

[AimlessRyan]

I also see what you mean by cottage cheesey from that second photo. She says she mixed for 19 minutes!

I don't think that's the same "cottage cheesy" texture he's referring to. Not with a 19-minute mix time. I think Scott is talking about something more like what I'm getting with a 5-minute mix time here: http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,20591.msg203891.html#msg203891.

You can see a bit of what I consider cottage cheese texture in the dough ball on the left. This was only a 5-minute mix with All Trumps, so I'm surprised there wasn't more cottage cheese action. (I wanted a little more cottage cheese.) If I had mixed this dough for 19 minutes, it would have been very smooth.

[AimlessRyan]

Actually I guess my first pic (the one with the mixer) is a better example of what I see as almost cottage cheese texture.

[scott123]

Steve, the 545, is that an oven setting or an infrared thermometer reading?

Ryan, yes, the first pic is more cottage cheese-y.  Your finished balls, if say cottage cheese is 6 o'clock and perfectly smooth is 12, then I'd say you're close to 10:30.  This level of smoothness is ideal for lower protein flours, but, for AT doughs that are to be cold fermented, I think it's a bit far. Your bake times are pretty low, if I recall, and your lower thickness factor should help, but I think the end result will be a bit chewy- not that that's bad- some people prefer a chewier crust.

As far as Norma's 19 minute mix goes, I had a theory for quite some time that overkneaded, degraded gluten is a lot like underkneaded gluten, and her results seem to support that, but kneading that long makes me nervous. I resonate much more with developing gluten to it's pre-peak- catching it on the way up, rather than the way down.

But, Steve, for now, don't worry about kneading.  Oil is very tenderizing, so let's see what 5% does before you go the cottage cheese route.

[slybarman]

Scott:

545 was the oven setting - the highest my oven goes. My current IR thermometer only goes up to 500. I know my stone is at least 500, but in truth I do not know my actual baking temp.

[The Dough Doctor]

Weemis;
To clear up any confusion, Peter is absolutely correct. "WE" is Tom Lehmann and Jeff Zeak, here at The American Institute of Baking/AIB International. Jeff has been my right hand man, and associate in most of the pizza work that has been done here at AIB since he came on board about 25-years ago. Prior to that, I did all of the work by myself. My research on pizza dates back to around 1967 and continues to this day with the full support of AIB, a multi-million dollar research and education facility, located in Manhattan, Kansas dedicated to serving the food industry world wide. When Jeff and I discover or develop something new or of interest to the pizza industry, WE work together to disseminate that information to the industry through seminar participation at Pizza Expo and the NAPICS (North American Pizza and Ice Cream Show), authoring pizza related articles for trade publications, as well as providing educational and technical, hands on assistance to all aspects of the pizza industry (pizzerias, box chains, as well as the largest frozen pizza manufacturers. We also provide technical support to the allied pizza industries (oven manufacturers, pan and utensil manufacturers, and ingredient suppliers). Whew! That was a mouthfull! Hopefully I've answered your question as to who "WE" is.
BTW: I am seriously considering retirement sometime within the next 2 or 3-years, but I will continue to assist the pizza and baking industries after retirement, so Jeff will be left to fend on his own until he can find someone to work with him and become a "WE" as I have.
Tom Lehmann/The Dough Doctor

[scott123]

Scott:

545 was the oven setting - the highest my oven goes. My current IR thermometer only goes up to 500. I know my stone is at least 500, but in truth I do not know my actual baking temp.

Steve, for what it's worth, your oven is going a lot higher than 545.  Based upon the bake times you're seeing with that stone, I'd say you're hitting 600 easy.

[norma427]

Norma got some nice browning going there. I also see what you mean by cottage cheesey from that second photo. She says she mixed for 19 minutes!

slybarman,

I have only tried long mixes in experiments.  I never normally do a long mix.  I usually only mix until the dough looks somewhat smooth.

Norma

[slybarman]

Roger that. Thanks.

[weemis]

Weemis;
To clear up any confusion, Peter is absolutely correct. "WE" is Tom Lehmann and Jeff Zeak, here at The American Institute of Baking/AIB International...

Tom Lehmann/The Dough Doctor

wow! that's quite a resume to be here in your off time, giving it all away! Thanks for taking the time to answer my (non-dough) question.

[The Dough Doctor]

Weemis;
Not a problem, you deserve to know who you're communicating with. One of our mission statements is to communicate information to the industry, you and everyone else here and at the other forums are part of that industry.
Tom Lehmann/The Dough Doctor

[AimlessRyan]

Ryan, yes, the first pic is more cottage cheese-y.  Your finished balls, if say cottage cheese is 6 o'clock and perfectly smooth is 12, then I'd say you're close to 10:30.

Yeah, I know. I was surprised it ended up that smooth because I only mixed for 5 minutes. After mixing, I immediately divided the dough and gave each ball a few kneads (just to tighten it up for rounding). Then I immediately rounded them and put 'em in the fridge.

I was actually going for more cottage cheese than that. I guess I'm just not used to my mixer yet, having gotten it back from KitchenAid only a few days ago after it sat around unusable (broken gears) for over a year.

[slybarman]

Here are tonight's results. I upped the hydration from 58% to 60%. I increased the oil to a bit over 3%. I know Scott said 5%, but I couldn't bring myself to go that high all at once. LOL. Baby steps, baby steps.

I only got a 36 hr cold rise versus the full 2-3 days I usually do.

The dough wasn't really much tougher to handle at 60% hydration. My dough handling is getting a little better each week. This was a 13.5 oz dough ball and a 14" pie.

The tenderness definitely improved with the higher oil% (and maybe higher hydration?). I am still not getting quite as much spring as I would like.

This was six minutes 30 seconds exactly. I hit the stopwatch right after launch.

My pizza critics seemed satisfied (though really they aren't all too discriminating )

Edit - I forgot to add that I also under-kneaded this time as well.

.

[slybarman]

I picked up an IR thermometer today that goes up to 1400f (old one only did 500f). I am going to try to get my bake temps up and my times down. I am going to start with the broiler method and see how that goes.

[scott123]

Steve, this last bake looks really good.

Go with 5% oil next time.  With your stone and your bake times, I think that will give you the best results.

Another thing you might want to play around with is stacking your iron pan on your cordierite stone. If both are flat, you might be able to break the 4 minute bake barrier and achieve a bit better oven spring.

When you get a chance, pre-heat your oven for an hour and take some readings of the stone.  I'd like to get to the bottom of the mystery of how you're getting 6 minute bake times with cordierite.

[slybarman]

My preheats have generally been 1 1/2 hrs total, so I will do that and take a reading with the new IR gun.

BTW - I went with 4% oil this past weekend. I am not sure if I really want to go over that. The crust was tender, but the presence of the oil in the finished crust was starting to be noticeable. I want tender, but not oily if I can help it. I also used honey instead of sugar and did get more browning. Not more crunch, but more browning. Sadly no photos because we were kinda rushing to feed the kiddies.

[slybarman]

Scott:

I made a couple of dough balls tonight with only 3% oil and they still looked and felt quite "oily". Then I got to thinking that a week or so ago I switched from using olive oil to using pure canola oil and I am wondering if this is accounting for the difference more so than the percentage? Does canola tend to give the dough a more oily look and feel to it? I had also upped the hydration from 58% to 60% so perhaps the dough is already more wet to start with and thus does not absorb the oil as readily? When I put the dough ball on the cutting mat, it left an oily sheen behind.

With regard to under-kneading the GMAT, I am still not sure if I am stopping at the right consistency. Does this look cottage cheesey or not kneaded enough? It was definitely less time and much less smooth than I would normally have done.

[scott123]

Steve, are you adding the oil to the water at the beginning of the mix or are you adding it later? If you're adding it later, switch it up and add it to the water.

Canola shouldn't be that different from olive oil.

Is this bromated All Trumps?  For some reason, the dough looks pretty wet for 60% hydration 3% oil AT.

I'm sure this has already been discussed, but you're using a reliable digital scale, correct?

There really is no free lunch when it comes to oven spring.  You can either get it with extra oil- and risk the crust tasting a bit oily or you can decrease the bake time with a more conductive stone.  When Norma went to 5% oil, she said that she couldn't taste any oiliness, and, from the photos, it didn't look oily either.  It's been a while, but I think I went to 5% once, and it might have been a bit oily for me. 5% oil is definitely outside of the specification for NY style, but it can be an effective way of achieving spring.  If you're sensitive to the taste, though, I understand.

[slybarman]

Thanks again Scott. I have been adding the oil after all the flour has been taken up into the water (which already has the yeast, honey, and salt dissolved in it). Oh y eah, I also switched from regular sugar to honey, not sure what effect on the consistency that has. I will try adding the oil at the beginning next time instead.

The AT is bromated and the scale is accurate as far as I know, but I will double check with another just to be sure.

[scott123]

Sounds good, Steve, I think adding the oil at the beginning should go a long way in helping the crust taste less oily.

[Don K]

I used to use about 3% oil with KABF or KASL. When I started using the exact same recipe with AT bromated the final crust seemed too doughy. I reduced the oil to 1% and it was much better. This was at 62% hydration.