Author Topic: Disappointing pies tonight  (Read 13531 times)

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scott123

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Re: Disappointing pies tonight
« Reply #25 on: August 22, 2012, 09:39:54 AM »
Scott:

545 was the oven setting - the highest my oven goes. My current IR thermometer only goes up to 500. I know my stone is at least 500, but in truth I do not know my actual baking temp.

Steve, for what it's worth, your oven is going a lot higher than 545.  Based upon the bake times you're seeing with that stone, I'd say you're hitting 600 easy.


Offline norma427

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Re: Disappointing pies tonight
« Reply #26 on: August 22, 2012, 09:47:27 AM »

Norma got some nice browning going there. I also see what you mean by cottage cheesey from that second photo. She says she mixed for 19 minutes!


slybarman,

I have only tried long mixes in experiments.  I never normally do a long mix.  I usually only mix until the dough looks somewhat smooth.

Norma

Offline slybarman

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Re: Disappointing pies tonight
« Reply #27 on: August 22, 2012, 09:50:53 AM »
Roger that. Thanks.

Offline weemis

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Re: Disappointing pies tonight
« Reply #28 on: August 22, 2012, 09:55:16 AM »
Weemis;
To clear up any confusion, Peter is absolutely correct. "WE" is Tom Lehmann and Jeff Zeak, here at The American Institute of Baking/AIB International...

Tom Lehmann/The Dough Doctor

wow! that's quite a resume to be here in your off time, giving it all away! Thanks for taking the time to answer my (non-dough) question.
Nick Gore - just a dough eyed wanderer

Offline The Dough Doctor

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Re: Disappointing pies tonight
« Reply #29 on: August 22, 2012, 10:13:33 AM »
Weemis;
Not a problem, you deserve to know who you're communicating with. One of our mission statements is to communicate information to the industry, you and everyone else here and at the other forums are part of that industry.
Tom Lehmann/The Dough Doctor

Offline Aimless Ryan

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Re: Disappointing pies tonight
« Reply #30 on: August 22, 2012, 11:25:41 AM »
Ryan, yes, the first pic is more cottage cheese-y.  Your finished balls, if say cottage cheese is 6 o'clock and perfectly smooth is 12, then I'd say you're close to 10:30.

Yeah, I know. I was surprised it ended up that smooth because I only mixed for 5 minutes. After mixing, I immediately divided the dough and gave each ball a few kneads (just to tighten it up for rounding). Then I immediately rounded them and put 'em in the fridge.

I was actually going for more cottage cheese than that. I guess I'm just not used to my mixer yet, having gotten it back from KitchenAid only a few days ago after it sat around unusable (broken gears) for over a year.
Ryan
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Disclaimer: Don't necessarily believe anything I say here. My brain ain't quite right anymore (unless it is). If I come off as rude or argumentative, that's probably not my intention. Rather, that's just me being honest, to myself and everyone else; partly because I don't have enough time left to BS either you or myself. If you are offended by anything I say, it's probably because you think lying to people (to be "polite") is a good idea. I don't.

Offline slybarman

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Re: Disappointing pies tonight
« Reply #31 on: August 26, 2012, 06:44:39 PM »
Here are tonight's results. I upped the hydration from 58% to 60%. I increased the oil to a bit over 3%. I know Scott said 5%, but I couldn't bring myself to go that high all at once. LOL. Baby steps, baby steps.

I only got a 36 hr cold rise versus the full 2-3 days I usually do.

The dough wasn't really much tougher to handle at 60% hydration. My dough handling is getting a little better each week. This was a 13.5 oz dough ball and a 14" pie.

The tenderness definitely improved with the higher oil% (and maybe higher hydration?). I am still not getting quite as much spring as I would like.

This was six minutes 30 seconds exactly. I hit the stopwatch right after launch.

My pizza critics seemed satisfied (though really they aren't all too discriminating :) )

Edit - I forgot to add that I also under-kneaded this time as well.

.
« Last Edit: August 26, 2012, 06:53:04 PM by slybarman »

Offline slybarman

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Re: Disappointing pies tonight
« Reply #32 on: September 05, 2012, 07:40:48 PM »
I picked up an IR thermometer today that goes up to 1400f (old one only did 500f). I am going to try to get my bake temps up and my times down. I am going to start with the broiler method and see how that goes.

scott123

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Re: Disappointing pies tonight
« Reply #33 on: September 07, 2012, 12:42:29 PM »
Steve, this last bake looks really good.

Go with 5% oil next time.  With your stone and your bake times, I think that will give you the best results.

Another thing you might want to play around with is stacking your iron pan on your cordierite stone. If both are flat, you might be able to break the 4 minute bake barrier and achieve a bit better oven spring.

When you get a chance, pre-heat your oven for an hour and take some readings of the stone.  I'd like to get to the bottom of the mystery of how you're getting 6 minute bake times with cordierite.



Offline slybarman

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Re: Disappointing pies tonight
« Reply #34 on: September 07, 2012, 02:39:01 PM »
My preheats have generally been 1 1/2 hrs total, so I will do that and take a reading with the new IR gun.

BTW - I went with 4% oil this past weekend. I am not sure if I really want to go over that. The crust was tender, but the presence of the oil in the finished crust was starting to be noticeable. I want tender, but not oily if I can help it. I also used honey instead of sugar and did get more browning. Not more crunch, but more browning. Sadly no photos because we were kinda rushing to feed the kiddies.

Offline slybarman

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Re: Disappointing pies tonight
« Reply #35 on: September 07, 2012, 09:37:33 PM »
Scott:

I made a couple of dough balls tonight with only 3% oil and they still looked and felt quite "oily". Then I got to thinking that a week or so ago I switched from using olive oil to using pure canola oil and I am wondering if this is accounting for the difference more so than the percentage? Does canola tend to give the dough a more oily look and feel to it? I had also upped the hydration from 58% to 60% so perhaps the dough is already more wet to start with and thus does not absorb the oil as readily? When I put the dough ball on the cutting mat, it left an oily sheen behind.

With regard to under-kneading the GMAT, I am still not sure if I am stopping at the right consistency. Does this look cottage cheesey or not kneaded enough? It was definitely less time and much less smooth than I would normally have done.


scott123

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Re: Disappointing pies tonight
« Reply #36 on: September 08, 2012, 06:47:48 AM »
Steve, are you adding the oil to the water at the beginning of the mix or are you adding it later? If you're adding it later, switch it up and add it to the water.

Canola shouldn't be that different from olive oil.

Is this bromated All Trumps?  For some reason, the dough looks pretty wet for 60% hydration 3% oil AT.

I'm sure this has already been discussed, but you're using a reliable digital scale, correct?

There really is no free lunch when it comes to oven spring.  You can either get it with extra oil- and risk the crust tasting a bit oily or you can decrease the bake time with a more conductive stone.  When Norma went to 5% oil, she said that she couldn't taste any oiliness, and, from the photos, it didn't look oily either.  It's been a while, but I think I went to 5% once, and it might have been a bit oily for me. 5% oil is definitely outside of the specification for NY style, but it can be an effective way of achieving spring.  If you're sensitive to the taste, though, I understand.

Offline slybarman

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Re: Disappointing pies tonight
« Reply #37 on: September 08, 2012, 06:56:24 AM »
Thanks again Scott. I have been adding the oil after all the flour has been taken up into the water (which already has the yeast, honey, and salt dissolved in it). Oh y eah, I also switched from regular sugar to honey, not sure what effect on the consistency that has. I will try adding the oil at the beginning next time instead.

The AT is bromated and the scale is accurate as far as I know, but I will double check with another just to be sure.

scott123

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Re: Disappointing pies tonight
« Reply #38 on: September 08, 2012, 07:21:01 AM »
Sounds good, Steve, I think adding the oil at the beginning should go a long way in helping the crust taste less oily.

Offline Don K

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Re: Disappointing pies tonight
« Reply #39 on: September 15, 2012, 01:04:47 AM »
I used to use about 3% oil with KABF or KASL. When I started using the exact same recipe with AT bromated the final crust seemed too doughy. I reduced the oil to 1% and it was much better. This was at 62% hydration.
The member formerly known as Colonel_Klink

Offline slybarman

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Re: Disappointing pies tonight
« Reply #40 on: September 19, 2012, 08:41:41 PM »
I finally got to make some dough tonight. I added the oil (4%) at the beginning this time as Scott suggested. It did make a big difference. The final dough was not oily. At 61% it was more wet and tacky like I would have expected.

I tried to under-knead the dough again, but still do not have a good feel for when to stop. I definitely stopped before it was smooth. Did I knead it enough? Any opinions on the look of this dough?

scott123

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Re: Disappointing pies tonight
« Reply #41 on: September 19, 2012, 08:59:12 PM »
Steve, if you were working with a weaker flour, which is what I recommend, then you'd want to knead it a bit further- not smooth, but maybe half way between what you have there and smooth.  For All Trumps that you plan on cold fermenting for at least a night, that should be perfect.


Offline Chicago Bob

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Re: Disappointing pies tonight
« Reply #42 on: September 19, 2012, 09:09:45 PM »
I finally got to make some dough tonight. I added the oil (4%) at the beginning this time as Scott suggested. It did make a big difference. The final dough was not oily. At 61% it was more wet and tacky like I would have expected.

I tried to under-knead the dough again, but still do not have a good feel for when to stop. I definitely stopped before it was smooth. Did I knead it enough? Any opinions on the look of this dough?
How many min. was that....speed?
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Offline slybarman

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Re: Disappointing pies tonight
« Reply #43 on: September 19, 2012, 09:22:22 PM »
Steve, if you were working with a weaker flour, which is what I recommend, then you'd want to knead it a bit further- not smooth, but maybe half way between what you have there and smooth.  For All Trumps that you plan on cold fermenting for at least a night, that should be perfect.

Cool. Thanks Scott. This will be a 3 day cold ferment.

Offline slybarman

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Re: Disappointing pies tonight
« Reply #44 on: September 19, 2012, 09:24:18 PM »
How many min. was that....speed?

I mixed with the spiral hook on speed #1 until all the flour was taken up then I switched to speed #2 for kneading. I didn't have a stopwatch going this time, but I would guess 2 mins kneading on #2.

Offline slybarman

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Re: Disappointing pies tonight
« Reply #45 on: September 24, 2012, 10:45:50 AM »
When you get a chance, pre-heat your oven for an hour and take some readings of the stone.  I'd like to get to the bottom of the mystery of how you're getting 6 minute bake times with cordierite.

Scott:

Finally had the chance to do this on Saturday. After a 1 1/2 hr pre-heat in the 545 degree oven the stone temp was . . . . . . . 545. :-\

No help there. I can tell you that my bake time this go-around was a full minute longer. The dough felt much wetter and much tackier than it has in the past - I assume this was the result of my adding the oil "up-front".  I wonder if maybe all the oil that I had on the outside of the dough the last time could have been a factor in the lower bake time?

I did a pie in the grill last night using just the stone and the IR burner. Got closer to a good pie this time. I was impatient and launched with the stone at 625-630. I should have let it come back down just a bit more. I also let the IR burner get good and hot before I launched. The top was mostly done as much as it needed to be when the bottom started to head toward over-done. I think if I had launched with the stone at 600, I would have had it. I am not sure what the total time was. I had company and was a bit too distracted to run the timer. I plan to give this another try though when time permits and also experiment with the baking sheet ceiling.
« Last Edit: September 24, 2012, 10:47:37 AM by slybarman »

scott123

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Re: Disappointing pies tonight
« Reply #46 on: September 27, 2012, 05:18:39 AM »
Steve, thanks for the temperature readings.  It's still a bit of mystery, but the additional minute makes a little more sense.

It sounds like you're getting the hang of the grill. Get your hands on that turning peel that we talked about- either that or a screen. Either will go a long way in correcting too high of a stone temp by getting the pizza up off the stone.

Offline slybarman

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Re: Disappointing pies tonight
« Reply #47 on: September 28, 2012, 06:01:02 PM »
Any thoughts one which of these would make the better turning peel for home oven and grill use? The grill gets pretty darn hot and I am not sure if the short handled one will be long enough to keep my hands from burning (happened a bit last time).

http://www.webstaurantstore.com/american-metalcraft-3209-9-x-11-pizza-peel-with-aluminum-blade-32-1-2/1243209.html

http://www.webstaurantstore.com/american-metalcraft-674-6-3-4-x-7-3-4-aluminum-pizza-peel-20-1-2/124674.html

http://www.webstaurantstore.com/american-metalcraft-17080-8-round-pizza-peel-with-aluminum-blade/12417080.html

scott123

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Re: Disappointing pies tonight
« Reply #48 on: September 29, 2012, 02:00:30 AM »
Steve, I would think that, in a jam, one could turn a pizza with a square peel, but I really think a round peel is ideal for this purpose.  The handle on the round peel should be plenty long enough to work with.  I work with this:

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B003E22RS4/?tag=pizzamaking-20

which is a much smaller handle.

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Re: Disappointing pies tonight
« Reply #49 on: October 04, 2012, 10:56:02 AM »
I have a 10" Round pizza peel, similar to the one the one Scott referenced. Definitely better than a rectangular pizza peel for turning your pizza.


 

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